How can/could or should we help those seeking.

[RJ]

Hebrews 6:4 is the opening clause of a sentence that goes through verse 5 and 6. Here is the whole sentence:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It seems as though the author is saying that something is impossible for a certain group of people, no? What is impossible, and who is in the group being addressed? Well, the thing that is impossible is for those folks to be "renewed again unto repentance," and the people being referred to are "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift," etc, etc "IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY." Clearly this verse states that believers can "fall away" to such a degree that they cannot be "renewed again unto repentance."

Can you think of any better way for the bible to detail why and how believers can, and what is the consequence for believers who "fall away?"

The author is Paul. If you know the entire context of this passage, you know that Paul was talking to his congregation and he was describing those who were infiltrators, spies in their midst. These were Jews that hadn't been converted but professed to be Christians. Many would participate in worshiping Christ but turn right around and participate in sacrifices in the Temple and were constantly telling other true Christians that they must do the same; that Christ alone was not sufficient. They were spies from the temple and the ruling Pharisees, sent out on a mission to disrupt the Christians.


In these passages . Paul was telling the true believers that once you are born of the Spirit, that they couldn't be un-born. For these infiltrators, Paul was saying that you can't fall away from something you never had...they were never born again in the first place.

Questioning, do you remember when you were born again, can you distinctly remember the time and place?

 

[Questioning]

The author is Paul.

Maybe so, but most bible scholars and apologists won't claim such, though. The writing style is so entirely different than every other example of Paul's writing, that the majority of scholars attribute it to someone familiar with Paul's doctrine but not the man himself.

If you know the entire context of this passage, you know that Paul was talking to his congregation and he was describing those who were infiltrators, spies in their midst. These were Jews that hadn't been converted but professed to be Christians. Many would participate in worshiping Christ but turn right around and participate in sacrifices in the Temple and were constantly telling other true Christians that they must do the same; that Christ alone was not sufficient. They were spies from the temple and the ruling Pharisees, sent out on a mission to disrupt the Christians.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you about it. If the verse said, literally, what you claim, then there'd be no need for further inquiry. I'm sure that in the space of half an hour you could sit there and come up with ten better ways to say, "The saved can't ever be unsaved," then you claim Hebrews 6 says it. Either way, the subjects are described as having once been "enlightened," and as those who "have tasted of the heavenly gift," and as those who "were made partakers of the Holy Ghost," and as those who "have tasted the good word of God," and as those who have experienced "the powers of the world to come." Perhaps the author was not referring to christians, as you claim, but I can think of no description more fitting what a christian believes he is than that. Can you?

In these passages . Paul was telling the true believers that once you are born of the Spirit, that they couldn't be un-born. For these infiltrators, Paul was saying that you can't fall away from something you never had...they were never born again in the first place.

I cannot conceive of someone interpreting those scriptures to mean that, but I would never deny a believer his own personal interpretation of those scriptures that he considers "holy," regardless of what is his essential claim. I don't deny believers their own personal interpretation because currently there is no one and nothing to prove them right or wrong on that particular interpretation. Were there some standard to conclusively prove or disprove interpretations of scripture, then my stance would be different.

To put it differently, I also don't argue with my muslim friends when they claim some verse in the Koran says something that seems the opposite of what it says when I read the words directly and plainly as they appear in the text.

Questioning, do you remember when you were born again, can you distinctly remember the time and place?

Of course. I remember all those instances extremely distinctly as I remember many other things associated with my life while I yet believed.

 

[RJ]

Yes, Questioning, you are of course absolutely right to your opinion and of "most of all those scholars" that you have quoted, who ever they are. I think that just about raps up or discussion. Thank You and have a pleasant day!

 

[Questioning]

Yes, Questioning, you are of course absolutely right to your opinion and of "most of all those scholars" that you have quoted, who ever they are. I think that just about raps up or discussion. Thank You and have a pleasant day!

Umm.. okay, but I didn't quote any scholars. If you are still interested in researching the authorship of Hebrews there are truckloads of research on the subject. It remains one of the most hotly debated topics in christian apologetics. It's an interesting study, too. When I was a believer I spent about a week in research on the topic and I kept uncovering more and more information--but none of it seemed to provide any clarity. So eventually I just gave up and went on to research other things.

If you do find some cool research on the subject, would you notify me by private message? Thanks so much!

 

[RJ]

Umm.. okay, but I didn't quote any scholars. If you are still interested in researching the authorship of Hebrews there are truckloads of research on the subject. It remains one of the most hotly debated topics in christian apologetics. It's an interesting study, too. When I was a believer I spent about a week in research on the topic and I kept uncovering more and more information--but none of it seemed to provide any clarity. So eventually I just gave up and went on to research other things.

If you do find some cool research on the subject, would you notify me by private message? Thanks so much!

My dear friend Questioning, I doubt that I will run across any "cool" research any time soon because I am not looking for any; the Bible and the "Holy Spirit" are all I need!
Blessings.

 

[Questioning]

My dear friend Questioning, I doubt that I will run across any "cool" research any time soon because I am not looking for any; the Bible and the "Holy Spirit" are all I need!
Blessings.

Oh, cool! I had thought that since the bible does not say who wrote the book of Hebrews, and there's much debate on the issue, that you might want to educate yourself on the more common ideas put forth by various well-known scholars on the matter. But if you're not concerned about it then neither am I. I rely on no single book that I honor above all others, nor do I claim that some divine and invisible friend awards me special answers to mysteries simply because of our relationship--so I'll defer to your privileged status at this point.

 

[RJ]

Oh, cool! I had thought that since the bible does not say who wrote the book of Hebrews, and there's much debate on the issue, that you might want to educate yourself on the more common ideas put forth by various well-known scholars on the matter. But if you're not concerned about it then neither am I. I rely on no single book that I honor above all others, nor do I claim that some divine and invisible friend awards me special answers to mysteries simply because of our relationship--so I'll defer to your privileged status at this point.

As you wish and I do feel privileged!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I believe that if christians really did know God and Christ that they'd be much more unified.

When we Christians speak of "knowing" God, we're referring to close personal parent/child, child/parent relationships based on love. It appears to me that your idea of relationship with God is an impersonal discipline based military commander/troops concept.

SLE

 

[Questioning]

When we Christians speak of "knowing" God, we're referring to close personal parent/child, child/parent relationships based on love.

Yes. That's how I would see it too. If you and I both have a personal relationship with Doctor Stample, then if we both ask him about a certain medical treatment he's going to tell us almost exactly the same thing. When 10 people known one guy they're going to have similar descriptions of him, not 10 different descriptions of him and what he wants. The vast number of differing denominations and opinions of what the bible/god says seems to indicate that none of them are really talking to anyone.

It appears to me that your idea of relationship with God is an impersonal discipline based military commander/troops concept.

Umm. No. Could you please quote whatever I said that gave you this impression? I'd like to understand how you came to this conclusion when I don't think I said anything to imply that I thought that way.
:wink: