If you do not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, then get baptized

[B-A-C]

The Gifts of the Spirit are many things; prophecy, healing and many more. But the fruits of the Spirit are what draw us to God. Hope, Faith, Love.

An interesting take.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

The difference between a "gift" of the Spirit and a "fruit" of the Spirit, is that one is given to you, ( it's a "gift" )
The other is produced by you. ( It's a fruit produced by the tree ).

 

[Snake Bait]

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

I don't know any way to put this without touching on OSAS unfortunately. But there are at least a few views on this passage.

1. They never had the gifts of the Spirit ( they only thought they did ) and either never did any miracles, or else they did them by the power of demons.
I don't know of any place where anyone was healed by a demon in the Bible, however there are a couple of places where demons gave people the power to prophesy.
The Bible says Satan definitely doesn't cast out his own demons.

Acts 16:16; It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
Acts 16:17; Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."
Acts 16:18; She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment.

2. They were saved for a while, and actually did the miracles and cast out the demons, at least for a while, and then went back to "practicing lawlessness" ( iniquity, sin ).

3. There is of course the unbiblical view of cessationism ( they believe the gifts were only for the apostles in the first century ).

4. Most Pentecostal denominations ( for example the Assemblies of God ) believe that the "indwelling" of the Spirit is a different thing than the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit.
You receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the instant you get saved. ( whether you keep it or not is another debate ), However the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event.
In all five passages in Acts where people received the baptism of the Holy Spirit ( the vast majority were NOT apostles ) it happened some period of time after they were initially saved.
Most Pentecostal denominations would say you "should" be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but since you already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it isn't a requirement in order to be saved.

Pentecostals believe the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well today. But in reality, there is sometimes too much emphasis on the "gifts", and not enough emphasis on the fruit.
It's not the Spiritual gifts ( 1 Cor 12:8-10; ) that determine your maturity as a Christian, it's the fruit ( Gal 5:22-23; ). If we look at the passage from Matthew 7 above, it's not
having/doing the gifts that saves you. There are some denominations that believe even if you "fall away" from salvation, you get to keep the Spiritual gifts until you die.

Some Calvinist denominations do not believe that the indwelling and baptism are two separate events. If this is true, then in all five passages where people received the baptism
of the Holy Spirit ( sometimes several years ) after their initial acceptance of Christ, they did not have the Holy Spirit at all, and therefore were not saved until they did.
Virtually all Calvinists believe you are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit until you die. ( Eph 4:30; ) Most of the more accurate translations say you were "marked" with a seal, rather
than you were "sealed". In either case, Calvinists would say you are "sealed" until you are ( safely ?? ) with Jesus. Some Arminians partially agree with this.
They would also say you are sealed until you die. However they would go with the more Biblical view, that you aren't "safe" with Jesus. This is when Jesus judges everyone
and the people who had the Holy Spirit to help them, will be held to a stricter judgment because they had no excuse not to live as Jesus lived.

I can clarify the understanding you and Bill are speaking of, in reguards to the Baptism of Water and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit being two separate Baptisms.

Acts 10:44-48
While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came down on all the listeners. Jewish believers who had accompanied Peter were all astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit should be poured out on the pagans too, since they could hear them speaking strange tongues and proclaiming the greatness of God. Peter himself then said, "could anyone refuse the water of baptism to these people, now they have received the Holy Spirit just as much as we have?" He then gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterwards they begged them to stay on for some days.

 

[Bill]

The Gifts of the Spirit are many things; prophecy, healing and many more. But the fruits of the Spirit are what draw us to God. Hope, Faith, Love.

As the scripture states. John6:44
" no one can come to me unless he is drawn by the Father"

John 6:63 " it is the Spirit that gives life"

Romans 8: 9 - 11
People who are interested only in unspiritual things can never be pleasing to God. Your interest however are not in the unspiritual but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made his home in you. In fact unless you possess the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been Justified, and if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then he who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your own mortal bodies through his Spirit living in you."

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are the things that draw us to God. Faith hope and love and the greatest of these is love.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit, are the presents of God working through us to serve Him

I need to throw in here one thing. Those who walk in the Darkness can also use the gifts of the Spirit. And it comes via Satan. But there's one fault, and that fault is no love. Because Satan had rejected God who is love and without love everything will fall apart.

So this explains why people are psychics and all those other things cuz all those things are all gifts of the Spirit it's that they're just used without God.

 

[Sue D.]

@Bill. Sorry -- but that which yiu are sharing is not scriptural. The fruits of the Spirit are received upon salvation.

The fruits of the Spirit are from the Spirit-- those living in darkness are Not born-again so there will Not be any fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Bill]

@Bill. Sorry -- but that which yiu are sharing is not scriptural. The fruits of the Spirit are received upon salvation.

The fruits of the Spirit are from the Spirit-- those living in darkness are Not born-again so there will Not be any fruits of the Spirit.

Well you're right it's not the fruits of the spirit. Because I didn't say that, I said the gifts of the Spirit which is something completely different.

The fruits of the spirit, as far as when people receive them. Are in the mystery of God. Because it is the fruits of the spirit that draw us to God.

There is not many people that suddenly become Christian without experiencing something loss maybe the love someone loved one died and then they receive hope in Christ they're not baptized yet but they are receive hope people receive Faith but they're not baptized yet people receive love but they're not baptized yet. So these three things faith hope and love are what draw us to God and they come from the Holy Spirit.

And then when you are baptized they more fully develop as time goes on. And then they also draw us to receive the baptism of the spirit.

I would never say that it is impossible to receive the baptism of the spirit at the very same time a person receives the water baptism. But the water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are two completely separate types of baptism all together.

The water baptism is a blessing into the house or family of God. A repentance of sin and being accepted by God.

But the baptism of the holy spirit is completely different. The baptism of the Holy Spirit puts us in the position in which God wants us to be.

Think of it this way when you're a student you're obviously not a master Mechanic or you're not a professed teacher you're only a student and you have to learn you have to become more. When you're baptized with water you are only the student. But when you're baptized in the gift of the Holy Spirit your own Spirit has become much more mature there's much growth that takes place and you become the teacher

 

[Bill]

@Bill. Sorry -- but that which yiu are sharing is not scriptural. The fruits of the Spirit are received upon salvation.

The fruits of the Spirit are from the Spirit-- those living in darkness are Not born-again so there will Not be any fruits of the Spirit.

when do you think a person receives salvation?

 

[Sue D.]

@ Bill it's the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that draws a person realize their personal need of salvation.
To be saved. A person needs to acknowledges their need To be saved. Then that Jesus Christ is the Son of God rather than just another religious teacher of that day. So - to be saved as per 1 Corinthians 15 : 1- 4 that Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture and that He was buried and rose again the 3rd day according to scripture... and He was seen by a variety of people after His resurrection and before He ascended back up to heaven after 40 days.

And we have John 3: 16. Romans 10 : 9-10

And a person -- at rhe moment of salvation-- feels an inner peace that wasn't there before.

 

[Bill]

@ Bill it's the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that draws a person realize their personal need of salvation.
To be saved. A person needs to acknowledges their need To be saved. Then that Jesus Christ is the Son of God rather than just another religious teacher of that day. So - to be saved as per 1 Corinthians 15 : 1- 4 that Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture and that He was buried and rose again the 3rd day according to scripture... and He was seen by a variety of people after His resurrection and before He ascended back up to heaven after 40 days.

And we have John 3: 16. Romans 10 : 9-10

And a person -- at rhe moment of salvation-- feels an inner peace that wasn't there before.

That is at the moment of salvation, what i am talking about is what draws us to the Lord in the first place

 

[Sue D.]

The Holy Spirit convicts through God's Word.. hearing His word being taught/ preached / reading it ourselves.

 

[Snake Bait]

@Bill. Sorry -- but that which yiu are sharing is not scriptural. The fruits of the Spirit are received upon salvation.

The fruits of the Spirit are from the Spirit-- those living in darkness are Not born-again so there will Not be any fruits of the Spirit.

Like Bill asked, when is salvation? Because we know through scripture, you do not just recieve the Holy Spirit via Baptism of Water.
See Acts 8:14-17

When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, and they went down there and prayed for the Samaritans to receive the holy spirit, for as yet he had not come down on any of them. They had only received the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Also in Acts 10:44-48

While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit came down on all the listeners. Jewish believers who had a company Peter were all astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit should be poured out on the pagans too ( notice that they were still considered pagans because they had not accepted Jesus as Lord as yet)
Since they could hear them speaking strange languages and proclaiming the greatness of God. Peter himself done said, could anyone refuse the water of baptism to these people, now they have received the Holy Spirit just as much as we have? He then gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus christ. Afterwards They begged him to stay on for some days.

So you see the baptism comes to anyone who is open to the Lord, whose hearts are fertile for the Lord.

The reason that the pagans were able to receive the Holy Spirit before the baptism was because of this one thing. And Paul talks about it in Romans
Romans 2:13-15
It is not listening to the Law but keeping it that will make people holy in the sight of God. For instance pagans who never heard of the Law but are led by reason to do what the Law commands, may not actually possess the Law, but they can be said to be the Law. They can point to the substance of the Law engraved on their hearts.

Paul also States in Romans 2: 28-29
To be a Jew is not to look like a jew, the circumcision is more than a physical operation. The real Jew is the one who is 'inwardly' a Jew, and the real circumcision is in the 'heart'!

 

[Sue D.]

@ Snake Bait-- keeping the law won't save anyone. It was given to show us the need for a Savior. Because if a person could keep all the law all the time , there would be no need for a Savior. But if a person breaks just one law the person is guilty of all of them. So we Do need a Savior. And we Do have Ephesians 2: 8 and 9.

 

[watertolive]

The Holy Spirit convicts through God's Word.. hearing His word being taught/ preached / reading it ourselves.

Greetings in the Lord
I have to ask, so where does brother Paul fit into your...preach, on the road to Damascus? You know, when He was going forth to kill and imprison more that preached Jesus salvation and resurrection? He was an unbeliever in the Son of God.

One day, many years ago, I sit on the floor with a 38 to my head, crying bitterly, all the horrible, that I was about, was present; and my thoughts, more pathetic than ever, giving me every reason to pull the trigger.

As I cried and thought upon all things I had ever done in this life, a figure of light and a figure of darkness showed up there with me. The Light was calling me to come to it, a very gentle, calming voice, and darkness was almost begging me, a very harsh and rash voice, to pull the trigger.

I lay that gun on the floor, and when I finally came to my feet I was weightless, every sin, every thought of them were gone...perhaps blotted out and remembered no more, you know like the Word says. I was happy, filled with joy, and a hunger and thirst for God's righteousness was very apparent. His Word came alive, not only on the page, but in my heart.

For some, His salvation comes instantaneous.
Perhaps this only comes to the few chosen of God; yes, many are called, and have yielded, with little to no life in them, they sit with blank stares and no passion, knowing Jesus saved me, but that's it. Many of them stand at the pulpit; the blind leading the blind, the Word calls them.

God first, always.
All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen

 

[Bill]

Greetings in the Lord
I have to ask, so where does brother Paul fit into your...preach, on the road to Damascus? You know, when He was going forth to kill and imprison more that preached Jesus salvation and resurrection? He was an unbeliever in the Son of God.

One day, many years ago, I sit on the floor with a 38 to my head, crying bitterly, all the horrible, that I was about, was present; and my thoughts, more pathetic than ever, giving me every reason to pull the trigger.

As I cried and thought upon all things I had ever done in this life, a figure of light and a figure of darkness showed up there with me. The Light was calling me to come to it, a very gentle, calming voice, and darkness was almost begging me, a very harsh and rash voice, to pull the trigger.

I lay that gun on the floor, and when I finally came to my feet I was weightless, every sin, every thought of them were gone...perhaps blotted out and remembered no more, you know like the Word says. I was happy, filled with joy, and a hunger and thirst for God's righteousness was very apparent. His Word came alive, not only on the page, but in my heart.

For some, His salvation comes instantaneous.
Perhaps this only comes to the few chosen of God; yes, many are called, and have yielded, with little to no life in them, they sit with blank stares and no passion, knowing Jesus saved me, but that's it. Many of them stand at the pulpit; the blind leading the blind, the Word calls them.

God first, always.
All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen

Excellent

 

[Bill]

@ Snake Bait-- keeping the law won't save anyone. It was given to show us the need for a Savior. Because if a person could keep all the law all the time , there would be no need for a Savior. But if a person breaks just one law the person is guilty of all of them. So we Do need a Savior. And we Do have Ephesians 2: 8 and 9.

Can you tell us what the Law is ?

 

[Bill]

The Holy Spirit convicts through God's Word.. hearing His word being taught/ preached / reading it ourselves.

I decided not to answer this, because my statement would only give you problems. I'm not trying to say that I know so much more than everybody else it's not like that. It's just my understanding is different than yours.

 

[Bill]

Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit reaches out to a person and draws them to God.

This often happens well before the person ever enters a church.

And once the person starts to reach out to God that is when the person will start reading the scripture.

It is the initial instance in which the Holy Spirit reaches a person is what I'm trying to talk about not after they've already been brought to a church.

I guess you could say there's a couple different types of salvation.
The first would be the initial draw of the Holy Spirit bringing a person to God.

The second type of salvation is the one that you are all talking about where they accept Jesus as Lord and savior

And a third type of salvation is a person finally makes it to heaven. Because there are many people that accept Jesus as Lord and still Fall Away

 

[Brad Huber]

Salvation comes when the Holy Spirit reaches out to a person and draws them to God.

This often happens well before the person ever enters a church.

And once the person starts to reach out to God that is when the person will start reading the scripture.

It is the initial instance in which the Holy Spirit reaches a person is what I'm trying to talk about not after they've already been brought to a church.

I guess you could say there's a couple different types of salvation.
The first would be the initial draw of the Holy Spirit bringing a person to God.

The second type of salvation is the one that you are all talking about where they accept Jesus as Lord and savior

And a third type of salvation is a person finally makes it to heaven. Because there are many people that accept Jesus as Lord and still Fall Away

Usually from someone's planted seeds in their mind, God choses to use us to reach others mostly, not in all cases but mostly.

 

[Dave M]

@ Snake Bait-- keeping the law won't save anyone. It was given to show us the need for a Savior. Because if a person could keep all the law all the time , there would be no need for a Savior. But if a person breaks just one law the person is guilty of all of them. So we Do need a Savior. And we Do have Ephesians 2: 8 and 9.

but that is not an excuse not to obey Christ, When we become born again we should want to obey Christ, it should be our desire. From my understanding, the law was to point out sin and the need for a savior, or savior gives us power over sin that we never had before so through the Holy Spirit we have the power to free ourselves from the bondage of sin

Matthew 12:50​

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

John 14:23​

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Dave M. You're right -- a born-again believer/ a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will Want to obey Him. Isn't His will that All would come to a saving knowledge of Him. Not a head knowledge but a heart belief acceptance.

 

[watertolive]

Greetings in the Lord
Salvation comes when one opens the door of their heart and ask God to enter in; set up camp, pitch a tent, and build a fire, I asked Him, and He did.
True salvation comes from the bottom of a very dark pit.
Our life isn't pretty and happy and comfortable.

Remember Jonah crying out from the belly of a whale, and God heard him, and saved him from death. Jonah willing ran from God, and put the whole ship in harm.

The woman with the issue of blood believed Jesus could heal her. She struggled to get through the crowd, pushing her way to the front of the pack, coming from behind, she reaches out and touches the Him of His robe. That tells me she was on her face, crying to the Lord. The Lord knew He had been touched for virtue went out of Him. Everyone else was touching Him to, to no avail. Yes but she touched Him in faith. And He told her, woman your faith has made you whole.

Have you ever pursued Him with such as passion, believing if I can just touch his hem...He will make me whole?
FAITH is an amazing gift. We all have been given a measure, but we have to exercise our faith.

All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen