Hello,
I had not seen this reply above before writing my last reply as it took me several hours, receiving a lengthy long-distance phone call in the middle of repy! I'll continue in my other reply, and get back to this after.
I'm having doubts...
- Thread starter JPeG
- Start date
Hello,
I had not seen this reply above before writing my last reply as it took me several hours, receiving a lengthy long-distance phone call in the middle of repy! I'll continue in my other reply, and get back to this after.
Well golly! I took a moment to read the above before continuing the other so now I'll take a second here before that. Only one small point of response, but as usual, it's loaded and the subject of intense debate etc. Thing is, far as I know, not too many people simultanously believe in Predestination AND Free Will, togehter as one! I happen to be one of the relative few I guess. In that there's another debate: Eternal Security' also known as 'Once Saved, ALWAYS SAVED!' Within that is where the bricks start flying. I find in Scripture many, many notations from general reference to blood curdling warnings that a Christian, through various means, those differing widely, may LOSE THEIR SALVATION!
So when you marry the 3 you have quite a complex doctrine! That said, it's what I believe, not because I'm smart enough to figure it out, I ain't: but because the Bible says so, and like I said, I've found zero errors in 20+ years!
By the way, I have come to believe your inquiries are genuine, though at first I was highly skeptical. Just such a method of a pile of seemingly harmless questions is often used by dark hearted folks to derail the beliefs of others, so I was wary. Strange concept there, but I guess they think like the devils that own their minds: 'Well, I may be going to hell, but I'm taking as many of THEM with me as possible!'
Now, back to the other...
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If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Okay, let's see here: I'm guessing your problem is the apparent lack of 'Equal Justice under the Law'? At least I'll go with that first. The first describes your garden variety humans, engaging in an act known to be forbidden both in their culture and before God. The sacred marriage vow is being directly and knowingly disobeyed by both parties, because in their small communities everybody knew everything about everybody else: so whomever was the adultress, the adulterer knew she was hitched to another man.
Far as I know there's no other sin that has such a high level of personal intimacy inherent in the commission of it? Gotta be careful what I say 'cause it's a Christian forum and kids read here too, but you're a big kid and get the drift! In short: they're REALLY sinning, into the center of their being! The penalty for that sin is eternal damnation, they're going to hell, sure thing, as they broke God's Law for which there's no sacrifice at the time.
In addition, we see in the Christian church being called the 'Bride of Christ', that God has a very deep emotion over this matter of the sanctity of marriage, it being the very foundation of the human race He has created! In addition there's the matter of enticing another into sin, though both are obviously willing participants eventually. This increases the penalty, as another sin of stealing. In addition, between a husband and wife in their intimacy, God had full control of when a woman might be impregnated & conceive, or not. That's His Divine Right as Lord God Almighty! In adultery this Will of God is completely controverted and denied Him, thereby assuming power over God. In addition, both have committed Covetousness, another sin. In addition, they have broken the commandment of having no other god before them, because they have become their own gods. In effect, they have made a graven image, another sin, because they have made that which appears to be a marriage act, which is actually their act of being god over themselves, as a graven image. They would be taking the Name of the Lord their God in vain, because they claim to be Israelites under the Lordship of Yahweh God, bound in the marriage oath before God, but instead it is an empty thing of no substance, proven by their disrespectful act. In effect, they bear false witness, that by their act they are saying that the married woman is not married to her husband, and that the husband is less than a husband to the wife. In effect, they have taken two lives willingly, because neither the seed of the man nor the ovum of the woman may bear the child that might have occurred as the Will of God had this act been only committed between man and wife. They dishonor their father and mother by insulting their success at good upbringing of a proper Jew and also trash their reputation. They have disturbed God's rest of the Sabbath by committing this act which causes Him extreme pain, when instead He should have been smelling the sweet odors of Sabbath sacrifice made before Him in His Rest.
Therefore, by this mutual act, they have BOTH broken all 10 Commandments simultaneously, and enjoyed it immensely, and continue in it until both are fully satisfied by committing it! The public spectacle of and public's participation in the act of stoning was the penalty chosen, for its simple effect of changing other's possibly wayward hearts, lest they dare engage in it also! By that stoning the eternal lives of countless scores of men & women might be saved from eternal damnation as they witness the possible earthly punishment for same.
Therefore God's love for the countless hearts dissuaded from committing this sin, saving them from eternal hell, far outweighs the seeming heartlessness of the punishment, and because of the manifold nature of the sin it carries the highest penalty upon conviction. Punishment: WELL deserved!
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
A priest and his family were called to a higher order of public decency and righteousness, especially before the people, as the priest stood for God, supposedly representing the image of the goodness and righteousness of God himself before the people. The people should seek after the righteousness of the priest, because it was attainable. The sinning daughter in her fornication may be found in much of that above regarding adultery, and surely, as the daughter of a priest, she of all people knows to abstain from fornication, the second highest sin before God! Punishment: WELL deserved!
We would see that if these punishment were 'unfair' then God dares not punish anybody in any way for any thing, because it causes some level of pain and suffering to be punished, and a Loving God cannot cause any pain or suffering to anything for any reason. Rather a silly thought overall.
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
We find that some of these whom God ordered wiped out, but who were spared death by King Saul, have gone on to be the family of men which have been the breeding ground for all the terrorsists of today, causing countless deaths and inestimable suffering! Had they been wiped out because of a genetic flaw causing the most extreme wickedness to be inbred, the future world would have been saved from tremendous pain and suffering, in God's Love. Instead, we suffer today, and will until the end of this world. Punishment: WELL deserved!
On the Holy Trinity, you're only repeating what I said. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are SEPARATE beings in one being. Many people will say that it's a contradiction, but the Catholic Church calls this a "mystery."
Yep, and it sure is a mystery, at least to me! I understand and believe the concept, and the Personnages, and the God, in each, and in all: but it exceeds my brains to know it as God knows it from His existence in it. They are three beings of God in one Entity of God, as God. Some details were explained before, and I really can't go much farther than that.
In my Catholic upbringing it is true that there was less focus on Scripture, but only because it is believed ( at least by my teachers ) that the Bible was no longer a credible source for morality or ethics because of the aforementioned passages ( and many others ). After all, that's what religion is all about right? Moral guidance?
Not to insult your Catholic teachers, but rather to state Truth, I think I'll go ahead and say: that's a bald faced lie from the pits of hell in the voice of Satan. The reason the Bible is rejected by Rome is because it flies in the face of Roman Catholic Doctrines used to dominate their subservient penitents, and it potentially interrupts the cash flow. The infallability of Popes, they taking not only the place of God on earth, which is STILL GOD'S, but even daring to say that the Pope's decrees OUTWEIGH the Decrees of God in Scripture, causes that Scripture must be assaulted as fallable, in comparison with their elected pope's claimed infallibility! They clearly stated, I believe at the Trent Council, that when faced with the choice to believe and obey papal or church decree, or believe and obey God's decree, that the pope's decree is to be believed and obeyed, over and above God's decree! They've also finally realized that many papal decrees were not only completely nonsensical from a theological or Biblical standpoint, but also that some of the pope's horrendous morals and behaviors is clearly called SIN in the Bible, therefore that's SIN by an infallible pope! I could go on, but the Roman Catholic church has sought the destruction or dismemberment of the Holy Scripture for centuries, and many graves are filled by their acts to destroy any believers of it in toto. Rome is God, just ask her!
I was brainwashed by them for almost 40 years until I saw the Light of Truth in Jesus Christ.
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Okay, let's see here: I'm guessing your problem is the apparent lack of 'Equal Justice under the Law'? At least I'll go with that first. The first describes your garden variety humans, engaging in an act known to be forbidden both in their culture and before God. The sacred marriage vow is being directly and knowingly disobeyed by both parties, because in their small communities everybody knew everything about everybody else: so whomever was the adultress, the adulterer knew she was hitched to another man.
Far as I know there's no other sin that has such a high level of personal intimacy inherent in the commission of it? Gotta be careful what I say 'cause it's a Christian forum and kids read here too, but you're a big kid and get the drift! In short: they're REALLY sinning, into the center of their being! The penalty for that sin is eternal damnation, they're going to hell, sure thing, as they broke God's Law for which there's no sacrifice at the time.
In addition, we see in the Christian church being called the 'Bride of Christ', that God has a very deep emotion over this matter of the sanctity of marriage, it being the very foundation of the human race He has created! In addition there's the matter of enticing another into sin, though both are obviously willing participants eventually. This increases the penalty, as another sin of stealing. In addition, between a husband and wife in their intimacy, God had full control of when a woman might be impregnated & conceive, or not. That's His Divine Right as Lord God Almighty! In adultery this Will of God is completely controverted and denied Him, thereby assuming power over God. In addition, both have committed Covetousness, another sin. In addition, they have broken the commandment of having no other god before them, because they have become their own gods. In effect, they have made a graven image, another sin, because they have made that which appears to be a marriage act, which is actually their act of being god over themselves, as a graven image. They would be taking the Name of the Lord their God in vain, because they claim to be Israelites under the Lordship of Yahweh God, bound in the marriage oath before God, but instead it is an empty thing of no substance, proven by their disrespectful act. In effect, they bear false witness, that by their act they are saying that the married woman is not married to her husband, and that the husband is less than a husband to the wife. In effect, they have taken two lives willingly, because neither the seed of the man nor the ovum of the woman may bear the child that might have occurred as the Will of God had this act been only committed between man and wife. They dishonor their father and mother by insulting their success at good upbringing of a proper Jew and also trash their reputation. They have disturbed God's rest of the Sabbath by committing this act which causes Him extreme pain, when instead He should have been smelling the sweet odors of Sabbath sacrifice made before Him in His Rest.
Therefore, by this mutual act, they have BOTH broken all 10 Commandments simultaneously, and enjoyed it immensely, and continue in it until both are fully satisfied by committing it! The public spectacle of and public's participation in the act of stoning was the penalty chosen, for its simple effect of changing other's possibly wayward hearts, lest they dare engage in it also! By that stoning the eternal lives of countless scores of men & women might be saved from eternal damnation as they witness the possible earthly punishment for same.
Therefore God's love for the countless hearts dissuaded from committing this sin, saving them from eternal hell, far outweighs the seeming heartlessness of the punishment, and because of the manifold nature of the sin it carries the highest penalty upon conviction. Punishment: WELL deserved!
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
A priest and his family were called to a higher order of public decency and righteousness, especially before the people, as the priest stood for God, supposedly representing the image of the goodness and righteousness of God himself before the people. The people should seek after the righteousness of the priest, because it was attainable. The sinning daughter in her fornication may be found in much of that above regarding adultery, and surely, as the daughter of a priest, she of all people knows to abstain from fornication, the second highest sin before God! Punishment: WELL deserved!
We would see that if these punishment were 'unfair' then God dares not punish anybody in any way for any thing, because it causes some level of pain and suffering to be punished, and a Loving God cannot cause any pain or suffering to anything for any reason. Rather a silly thought overall.
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
We find that some of these whom God ordered wiped out, but who were spared death by King Saul, have gone on to be the family of men which have been the breeding ground for all the terrorsists of today, causing countless deaths and inestimable suffering! Had they been wiped out because of a genetic flaw causing the most extreme wickedness to be inbred, the future world would have been saved from tremendous pain and suffering, in God's Love. Instead, we suffer today, and will until the end of this world. Punishment: WELL deserved!
On the Holy Trinity, you're only repeating what I said. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are SEPARATE beings in one being. Many people will say that it's a contradiction, but the Catholic Church calls this a "mystery."
Yep, and it sure is a mystery, at least to me! I understand and believe the concept, and the Personnages, and the God, in each, and in all: but it exceeds my brains to know it as God knows it from His existence in it. They are three beings of God in one Entity of God, as God. Some details were explained before, and I really can't go much farther than that.
In my Catholic upbringing it is true that there was less focus on Scripture, but only because it is believed ( at least by my teachers ) that the Bible was no longer a credible source for morality or ethics because of the aforementioned passages ( and many others ). After all, that's what religion is all about right? Moral guidance?
Not to insult your Catholic teachers, but rather to state Truth, I think I'll go ahead and say: that's a bald faced lie from the pits of hell in the voice of Satan. The reason the Bible is rejected by Rome is because it flies in the face of Roman Catholic Doctrines used to dominate their subservient penitents, and it potentially interrupts the cash flow. The infallability of Popes, they taking not only the place of God on earth, which is STILL GOD'S, but even daring to say that the Pope's decrees OUTWEIGH the Decrees of God in Scripture, causes that Scripture must be assaulted as fallable, in comparison with their elected pope's claimed infallibility! They clearly stated, I believe at the Trent Council, that when faced with the choice to believe and obey papal or church decree, or believe and obey God's decree, that the pope's decree is to be believed and obeyed, over and above God's decree! They've also finally realized that many papal decrees were not only completely nonsensical from a theological or Biblical standpoint, but also that some of the pope's horrendous morals and behaviors is clearly called SIN in the Bible, therefore that's SIN by an infallible pope! I could go on, but the Roman Catholic church has sought the destruction or dismemberment of the Holy Scripture for centuries, and many graves are filled by their acts to destroy any believers of it in toto. Rome is God, just ask her!
I was brainwashed by them for almost 40 years until I saw the Light of Truth in Jesus Christ.
I got nothin'. We both have different beliefs and this debate isn't going anywhere. I don't believe in Biblical Inerrancy, which you seem to strongly believe in. On the question of Free Will, as I've said, someone else has answered.
The Pope is the successor of Peter, the rock in which Christ has built His church upon. While historically the Catholic Church has endured countless controversies and travesties of Scripture, they are at least open to many interpretations of it. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. For us Catholics, the Bible is open to human interpretation. Catholicism has also established a firm place in social criticism. Catholicism is consistent in it's critiques of modern and social ideologies. Pope John Paul II's encyclicals call back believers onto the path of Christ, reaffirming the message and applying it to today's terms. The Catholic Church is constantly changing for the times. Advancements in technology, astrology, genetics, etc. the Catholic Church is there to study and examine. It has done more as an organization than the hypocritical Evangelical pastors who pose on television. Don't talk smack about the Catholic Church. It's a human organization that is bound to flaws and mistakes, but it has done such great things for human society ( in modern times ) .
I used to know a priest, a very good one at that, who even outright questioned the existence of God. In my opinion, this is the kind of man we need, to question the power of God and the Bible. My teacher, whom I referred to in this debate, was a graduate of the University of Notre Dame with a Ph.D in Philosophy and Theology. Like the priest I mentioned, he forced his students to question their beliefs in hopes that it would make them stronger. He forced us to think in the terms of an atheist; for awhile, I actually didn't believe in God.
This is my point: I stopped thinking like a believer. My perspective was broadened. This is why I question my faith, and I don't believe there is harm in that. Why do you believe in Biblical Inerrancy? Because God wrote it? Then what is God? Why did God write it? Why did God create us? Did God even create us? Intelligent planning? Evolution? Clay? Was Jesus God? Was he just a man? Was he the Ghandi of his time? Was he really resurrected?
Those questions were rhetorical.
The Pope is the successor of Peter, the rock in which Christ has built His church upon. While historically the Catholic Church has endured countless controversies and travesties of Scripture, they are at least open to many interpretations of it. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. For us Catholics, the Bible is open to human interpretation. Catholicism has also established a firm place in social criticism. Catholicism is consistent in it's critiques of modern and social ideologies. Pope John Paul II's encyclicals call back believers onto the path of Christ, reaffirming the message and applying it to today's terms. The Catholic Church is constantly changing for the times. Advancements in technology, astrology, genetics, etc. the Catholic Church is there to study and examine. It has done more as an organization than the hypocritical Evangelical pastors who pose on television. Don't talk smack about the Catholic Church. It's a human organization that is bound to flaws and mistakes, but it has done such great things for human society ( in modern times ) .
I used to know a priest, a very good one at that, who even outright questioned the existence of God. In my opinion, this is the kind of man we need, to question the power of God and the Bible. My teacher, whom I referred to in this debate, was a graduate of the University of Notre Dame with a Ph.D in Philosophy and Theology. Like the priest I mentioned, he forced his students to question their beliefs in hopes that it would make them stronger. He forced us to think in the terms of an atheist; for awhile, I actually didn't believe in God.
This is my point: I stopped thinking like a believer. My perspective was broadened. This is why I question my faith, and I don't believe there is harm in that. Why do you believe in Biblical Inerrancy? Because God wrote it? Then what is God? Why did God write it? Why did God create us? Did God even create us? Intelligent planning? Evolution? Clay? Was Jesus God? Was he just a man? Was he the Ghandi of his time? Was he really resurrected?
Those questions were rhetorical.
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RJ
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Hope this helps!!
SpiritLedEd
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I think that when your teacher said that God cannot be comprehended, he/she was saying that He cannot be understood completely or perfectly. The created is never equal to its creator. Thus, while we humans are on this side of eternity, our comprehension of God will be limited.
"'my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts,' says the Lord." (Is 55:9 NIV]
"Now we see but a poor reflection (of God) as in a (polished brass)mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then (in heaven) I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Cor 13:12 NIV)
SLE
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RJ
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Sle,
This is one of my most favorite verses of all. God is talking about one of the greatest promises of all, that we will be made perfect and he will turn over the keys to these universe to each one of us who enters his presencel!!!
Ok. I will try to explain in short how I understand God and free will.
First I have to say that God is omnipotent and he can do what ever he wants including building rock that we can't lift.
Second let's look into bible to see how God created us.
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image
From this verse we see that God created us by his image. God himself has free will. This means that if we are in his image we also should have free will otherwise we wouldn't be made in his image.
How could god give us free will when he is omniscient?
God could use his omnipotent status and suppress omniscient for sake of your free will. This means that God is omnipotent and omniscient minus free will or omniscient in everything that can be known. If one day God decides to reclaim his full omniscient status then he will destroy your free will using omnipotent status.
I hope it helps
I can't say I have an answer to all of your questions, but I can share my views
The whole free will concept was something I struggled with for a long time too. I believe God wants us to love Him, yet He will not force us. Love is not created through fear or intimidation...not true love at least. If we choose Him, I think He wants it to be by our own volition. Free will isn't invalid at all.
What causes a perfect being to create? I have no idea. I can't pretend to know the motives of God. Sorry
I know that we are created in His image. Are we inherently created to love God? Perhaps. I think I was, but I don't know if that is the case for everyone. I agree that there are many things we can't comprehend about God. We do not know, nor can we necessarily comprehend a fraction of what He does. At the same time, I don't find God to be inaccessible. Part of the beauty of Jesus coming to Earth was to bridge the gap between our Father and humanity. Jesus was a living extension of God and was able to experience this world for what it was, all the temptations and hardships...He advocates for us in heaven.
I don't know that any of my thoughts were helpful, but I just wanted to share. :embarasse
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You're Not Alone
A conundrum for sure! What part of free will concerns you? That God knows the past, present, future of all things? That you have no choice? How will you know if this is true or not? This is something that can be argued from both sides, and still come up with no clear answer for either position you decide to hold. Theology can be tough, but don't let a question that theologians from the onset have been unable to answer set you back. Do you believe your salvation or those of others you care for are in question? Would you know? Listen to the different testimonies of believers or non-believers that have flipflopped. For the most part they are similar yet different to each person. You have them who say they gave their lives to Christ and have turned away from believing and those who didn't believe and were atheists who now believe and everything in between. I'm a parent and a parent sometimes sees a certain look in their childs eyes and they can tell you exactly what is going through that childs mind and what they're about to do! Normally, its not something good either How much more our Father God who knows the heart better then we know ourselves. The choice is ours to make, just like a little childs. Romans 10:10, read Job 38:6. Just remember we serve a mighty powerful God! Would I want a God who was totally understandable by me? Heaven forbid! He would then be a construct of man! Instead, we are His creation. How glorious His love that He choose me, you and everyone else who calls His son Jesus Christ Lord and Savior! Hold on to Him as if your life depended on it! For it does! For me it's enough that He knows. My belief is not dependent upon what others think and I pray that neither does yours.
You state that by all definitions God is perfect. How would you or I know perfection? Would we recognize it if we saw it? You want to know what motivates God besides love? Want to know when we'll know? Read John 17:3. We get bits and pieces of a never ending puzzle. Yet JPeg, we have an eternity to find out! Isn't that awesome to contemplate? Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia!!! I'm like the Canaanite woman who asked for healing for her daughter from our Lord. I'm glad for the crumbs that would fall from His table. Have faith my brother! I know sometimes its not easy, and I find myself like the man in Mark 9:24 "I believe, help my unbelief" Yet I continue to strive on. Waiting for the day of His return or His call bringing me home!
Now whether your questions were answered or will ever be answered, becomes irrelevant to a much larger one for you. Do you believe you're a sinner? Do you believe that no act on your behalf can atone for your sin? Do you believe that Jesus' atoning death on the Cross was a sacrifice for those same sins? Do you believe that He rose again on the third day? I ask this because I was confirmed Catholic growing up as well. My mom almost became a nun (final vows) then God brought my dad into the picture over 65 years ago. I know these are not questions you would have been asked or had to answer. I don't really know you, but the conflicts that occur in not only within your own mind, but the battles of trying to justify to others why you believe as one believes does wear on you and can leave you floundering at times. So I pray for your strength, your perseverance, and for the Hope in our Lord Christ Jesus who will never fail you. I pray that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon you that you are not at a loss for what needs to be said to those who would ridicule or question your belief. A great comfort to me during these times has been Psalm 143. I pray it may uplift you as well in your time of need. You have loving brothers & sisters here. Talk to them, to us. We're here to uplift each other in times of need. Be comforted my brother JPeg you're not alone and because if you do believe, you never will be! Amen!
YBIC
A conundrum for sure! What part of free will concerns you? That God knows the past, present, future of all things? That you have no choice? How will you know if this is true or not? This is something that can be argued from both sides, and still come up with no clear answer for either position you decide to hold. Theology can be tough, but don't let a question that theologians from the onset have been unable to answer set you back. Do you believe your salvation or those of others you care for are in question? Would you know? Listen to the different testimonies of believers or non-believers that have flipflopped. For the most part they are similar yet different to each person. You have them who say they gave their lives to Christ and have turned away from believing and those who didn't believe and were atheists who now believe and everything in between. I'm a parent and a parent sometimes sees a certain look in their childs eyes and they can tell you exactly what is going through that childs mind and what they're about to do! Normally, its not something good either How much more our Father God who knows the heart better then we know ourselves. The choice is ours to make, just like a little childs. Romans 10:10, read Job 38:6. Just remember we serve a mighty powerful God! Would I want a God who was totally understandable by me? Heaven forbid! He would then be a construct of man! Instead, we are His creation. How glorious His love that He choose me, you and everyone else who calls His son Jesus Christ Lord and Savior! Hold on to Him as if your life depended on it! For it does! For me it's enough that He knows. My belief is not dependent upon what others think and I pray that neither does yours.
You state that by all definitions God is perfect. How would you or I know perfection? Would we recognize it if we saw it? You want to know what motivates God besides love? Want to know when we'll know? Read John 17:3. We get bits and pieces of a never ending puzzle. Yet JPeg, we have an eternity to find out! Isn't that awesome to contemplate? Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia!!! I'm like the Canaanite woman who asked for healing for her daughter from our Lord. I'm glad for the crumbs that would fall from His table. Have faith my brother! I know sometimes its not easy, and I find myself like the man in Mark 9:24 "I believe, help my unbelief" Yet I continue to strive on. Waiting for the day of His return or His call bringing me home!
Now whether your questions were answered or will ever be answered, becomes irrelevant to a much larger one for you. Do you believe you're a sinner? Do you believe that no act on your behalf can atone for your sin? Do you believe that Jesus' atoning death on the Cross was a sacrifice for those same sins? Do you believe that He rose again on the third day? I ask this because I was confirmed Catholic growing up as well. My mom almost became a nun (final vows) then God brought my dad into the picture over 65 years ago. I know these are not questions you would have been asked or had to answer. I don't really know you, but the conflicts that occur in not only within your own mind, but the battles of trying to justify to others why you believe as one believes does wear on you and can leave you floundering at times. So I pray for your strength, your perseverance, and for the Hope in our Lord Christ Jesus who will never fail you. I pray that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon you that you are not at a loss for what needs to be said to those who would ridicule or question your belief. A great comfort to me during these times has been Psalm 143. I pray it may uplift you as well in your time of need. You have loving brothers & sisters here. Talk to them, to us. We're here to uplift each other in times of need. Be comforted my brother JPeg you're not alone and because if you do believe, you never will be! Amen!
YBIC
SpiritLedEd
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To say that God suppresses His omniscience to avoid it conflicting with our free will is to say that He reduces an element of His perfection to a temporary state of imperfection so as to avoid conflict with another element of His perfection. This is heretical thinking as well as being illogical. God is perfect in the most absolute sense and absolute perfection can never be altered in any way.
Spirit Led Ed (SLE)
Then you have no free will and God made Adam to sin.
you can't have omniscience and free will at same time. Both things contradict each other.
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SpiritLedEd
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As I said in a message I posted in this thread on December 9th, God has the power to limit Himself in His use of His power. Thus He is able to know in advance what a person is going to do and not be able to interfere in the person's decision to do the deed. God almost never interferes in our free will choices.
SLE
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This is exactly what I said. God uses Omnipotence to suppress omniscient.
This means to me God is Omnipotence and (omniscient - free will)
Are you saying that you believe that God knows in advance that you will accept or reject God?
Are you saying that you believe that God knew in advance that Adam will Sin?
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SpiritLedEd
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To suppress means to put down by force , as in suppressing an opposing political movement. God's powers do not fight against each other or Him.
Yes and yes. But, because He chooses to limit His use of His power , man has been given the authority and responsibility to choose and he suffers the consequences of bad choices. Keep in mind that if mankind did not have freedom of choice, sin could not exist.
SLE
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Then you must believe in not honest God. According to you God said this even so he secretly knew that Adam will sin anyway.
Genesis 2:17
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”
Why warn Adam when you know he will eat it anyway?
what does it mean"He chooses to limit His use of His power "?
What kind of power did he limit?
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Why don't you answer your own question instead of assuming brother SLE believes in a 'not honest' GOD as you said. That's a pretty foolish statement to make.
He also told YOU what to do and not do throughout the entire Bible. GOD knew what you will do anyway. So what? Does this mean GOD should go around saying nothing but "I already know?"
If God said it then it can means two things to me
a)God is a lair
or
b) God didn't know that Adam will eat it and God tried to
prevent him from eating it.
I go with choice b because it is very hard for me to accept that God lies secretly.
Sorry brothers if I push you and question your beliefs.
you do have nice forum and i feel presence of Holy Spirit.
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SpiritLedEd
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I'm amazed that a man of your intelligence has to ask that question. I find it hard to believe that you don't know the answer, especially since you say you're "born again".
SLE
Boanerges
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God created man with the ability to choose from the beginning and those He creates in such a manner He has already provided the ability to do just that. Anything else would be against His perfect will and it would void the very nature that He created man with. Since God is not in the business of contradicting Himself we can safely say that man's ability to choose is within the framework of God's plan and will.
