aaroncam85
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the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?
Is God All Knowing?
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Tribulation
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I personally believe that God is all knowing.
I also believe that one of the many great gifts God has given us is the gift of free will.
The angels in heaven are also given free will. Even Satan is given free will.
It's a gift from God. How we use it will determine our destiny. So because of Gods gift of free will, we get to determine our own destiny.
Man decided his own fall, by disobedience, as a result of the gift of free will.
And God provided a way for man to choose to reconcile with Him. With the gift of free will.
We get to choose to live with Him, and be His Glory.
Man lives in a dimension where time exists.
God & the angels live in a dimension of timelessness.
It's a possibility that there was NO past present or future in the Garden of Eden when Adam & Eve lived with the Lord. And one of the results of Adam & Eve having sinned in the Garden, might have been the creation of "time"
No where in the Bible does it say God created "time"
Adam & Eve lived with the Lord in the Garden... which at that point may have STILL been like heaven... A place with NO TIME
Just existence... and life
Adam & Eve were created to live forever. But Adam only lived to be 930 years old. Because of the event (or byproduct) of sin... which we call "TIME"
Time destroys... time corrodes... time is mans enemy
Time is what destroys a mans life
This is where the term was coined "It's only a matter of time"
So the "matter" is TIME
How long until we die? Well... it's a "matter of time"
Adam & Eve were told by God that they would surely die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. Much of understanding what we call "knowledge" has to do with knowing how to count.
Math is "knowledge" --- hence the term-- tree of knowledge
Science uses math --- again "knowledge"
In English class they teach children the Alphabet, and how to count from to 1 to 10
In GYM class, they learn sports. The winner of a sporting game depends on the score. A score consists of NUMBERS also.
When we count, we use numbers.
Time is made up of numbers
If it's 11:00... in 5 minutes it will be 11:05
everything is numbers
It is time that destroys our bodies.
I believe God knew man would fall, as a result of the gift of free will, and designed it that way. But wants to be loved for who he is.
So free will, and self destiny is how we decide if we want to love him.
And return to a period of timelessness.
Which is what eternity is. A place where there is ONCE again NO TIME. Because sin is not in heaven. And a byproduct of sin is TIME
Heaven is a place of timelessness, it is eternity, it is the definition of forever.
Gal 1:5 "to whom be the glory for ever and ever, Amen"
If God created us, and DEMANDED we worship him. That would not be free will.
But since we desire to worship Him. That is TRUE love
And by giving us choice HE created GLORY
We are His Glory... and He is worthy to be worshiped
To God be the Glory... for ever and ever!
So for the long winded reply :shock:
I also believe that one of the many great gifts God has given us is the gift of free will.
The angels in heaven are also given free will. Even Satan is given free will.
It's a gift from God. How we use it will determine our destiny. So because of Gods gift of free will, we get to determine our own destiny.
Man decided his own fall, by disobedience, as a result of the gift of free will.
And God provided a way for man to choose to reconcile with Him. With the gift of free will.
We get to choose to live with Him, and be His Glory.
Man lives in a dimension where time exists.
God & the angels live in a dimension of timelessness.
It's a possibility that there was NO past present or future in the Garden of Eden when Adam & Eve lived with the Lord. And one of the results of Adam & Eve having sinned in the Garden, might have been the creation of "time"
No where in the Bible does it say God created "time"
Adam & Eve lived with the Lord in the Garden... which at that point may have STILL been like heaven... A place with NO TIME
Just existence... and life
Adam & Eve were created to live forever. But Adam only lived to be 930 years old. Because of the event (or byproduct) of sin... which we call "TIME"
Time destroys... time corrodes... time is mans enemy
Time is what destroys a mans life
This is where the term was coined "It's only a matter of time"
So the "matter" is TIME
How long until we die? Well... it's a "matter of time"
Adam & Eve were told by God that they would surely die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. Much of understanding what we call "knowledge" has to do with knowing how to count.
Math is "knowledge" --- hence the term-- tree of knowledge
Science uses math --- again "knowledge"
In English class they teach children the Alphabet, and how to count from to 1 to 10
In GYM class, they learn sports. The winner of a sporting game depends on the score. A score consists of NUMBERS also.
When we count, we use numbers.
Time is made up of numbers
If it's 11:00... in 5 minutes it will be 11:05
everything is numbers
It is time that destroys our bodies.
I believe God knew man would fall, as a result of the gift of free will, and designed it that way. But wants to be loved for who he is.
So free will, and self destiny is how we decide if we want to love him.
And return to a period of timelessness.
Which is what eternity is. A place where there is ONCE again NO TIME. Because sin is not in heaven. And a byproduct of sin is TIME
Heaven is a place of timelessness, it is eternity, it is the definition of forever.
Gal 1:5 "to whom be the glory for ever and ever, Amen"
If God created us, and DEMANDED we worship him. That would not be free will.
But since we desire to worship Him. That is TRUE love
And by giving us choice HE created GLORY
We are His Glory... and He is worthy to be worshiped
To God be the Glory... for ever and ever!
So for the long winded reply :shock:
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Thiscrosshurts
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KJV:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NIV:
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
According to this verse God set it all up for a reason.If there is such a thing as free will it does not seem to apply to the frustrating of creation.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
There may have been something I refer to as cyclical time(perhaps event oriented time?).This would be exclusive to the creation and would not include heaven itself.Jesus is the DAY.Days,years and seasons could refer to patterns,cycles or patterns of cycles,cycles of patterns.
I don't feel that this verse describes linear time.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Thats why we are already there,God raised us with Jesus 2000 years ago(our time). However God actually raised us before the foundation of the world,that's why the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world.
We are now supposed to live in the DAY,the Lord Jesus Christ.
In him we are more than conquerors,even over time.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
NIV:
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
According to this verse God set it all up for a reason.If there is such a thing as free will it does not seem to apply to the frustrating of creation.
I tend to agree with this because it answers so many questions about apparent conflicts in scripture.
I feel this is worth researching further.It would explain the Lamb of God being slain from the foundation of the world.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
There may have been something I refer to as cyclical time(perhaps event oriented time?).This would be exclusive to the creation and would not include heaven itself.Jesus is the DAY.Days,years and seasons could refer to patterns,cycles or patterns of cycles,cycles of patterns.
I don't feel that this verse describes linear time.
I think Romans 8:20 backs that up.
I agree,that's why no man has ascended into heaven except he who descended.Since there is no time in heaven you can't go there unless you're already there.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Thats why we are already there,God raised us with Jesus 2000 years ago(our time). However God actually raised us before the foundation of the world,that's why the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world.
We are now supposed to live in the DAY,the Lord Jesus Christ.
In him we are more than conquerors,even over time.
Tribulation
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Hey... great point! I always wondered about that line of scripture.
Also, I wanted to add one more point.
We can't see love. But we "believe" in it
We can't see prayers going to heaven. But we "believe" they do
We can't see God. But we believe in Him
And we can't see time. But we "believe" it exists
I assume that God wanted to grow a garden. And it started in "The Garden" of Eden
This garden is a crop of GLORY. Sure there will be "tares" like any garden.
But obviously God understood we would sin, and that would create time. And it takes "TIME" to grow a garden.
And when the harvest is ripe, that's when the 2 verses below come in...
Reaping the Earth Harvest
Rev 14:14 The Son of Man sat on a white cloud, holding a sharp sickle in His hand.
Rev 14:15 The an angel said, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap. For the time has come for you to reap the harvest"
Notice the mention of the term "time" in Rev 14:15
And of course many people believe we living in the "end time"
Notice the term again end "time"
Meaning we will return to living with The Lord, once again in a period of "timelessness"
Sin will no longer exist, and neither will time
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Tribulation, my brother, I am about to address your post. The reactions you may experience to my reproof may be centered in a prick to your pride. Please examine what I say for truth and seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit when you respond to me. If Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Temperance, Meekness, Goodness and things of this sort rule your heart when you respond, then they will be what proceeds out of your mouth in response to me. We then both can edify one the other.
Consider what I say.
I believe God is all knowing because he told me he is in his Word, I cannot just decide to believe with my intellect, all must come by revelation from God.
Peter was absolutely convinced of this when he replied unto Jesus saying "You know all things, you know that I love you." There are many events in scripture that teach us that God knows all things. We just need to believe what he has said and not formulate our own opinions based up our own research.
Free will is not a gift from God. Free will does not exist. What kind of an evil God would give you a gift that can destroy you? Satan, of course, the Father of the lie of free will.
You are a servant. You were created to be exactly that and as a leopard cannot change his spots neither can you. The day you understand this truth is the day you are free from serving Satan.
Satan chose to act upon his own authority that he gave to himself. In doing so, he birthed the illusion of free will and brought confusion to the creation. By confusing the creation through deception, he exalted himself above the throne of God and hijacked the rule given to man over the Earth unto himself. His time is limited as he cannot defeat God. His rule is only going to continue as long as Gods longsuffering continues for the sake of the elect.
All good gifts come down from the Father of lights in whom there is no shadow of turning. This is not a gift from God. Are you sure that you want to blame God for everyone who goes to Hell by choosing to do so? If you determine your own destiny then your destination is the lake of fire. If you let God decide then your destination is the new heaven and earth.
Your blaming God. Only Satan blames God. Please understand, I am not attacking you, but merely showing you that you are currently being used by Satan to breathe his lie into the air. Jesus pointed this out in Peter when Satan was using him by saying "Get thee behind me Satan!". He wasn't rebuking Peter so much as Satan himself. Peter was still under the curse of choosing to serve Satan over God.
God, does not use something that doesn't exist for his purpose. The truth is what sets a man free. The truth is that you as a human must serve as you were created a servant. Remember Joshua who said, if it be evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, then choose you this day whom you will serve. You must serve someone. You are a servant. If you buy into the illusion of 'free will' then you automatically serve the creator of this illusion, Satan. Your still just a servant who believes he is free. A master plan from the father of lies.
We chose who we serve. If we serve God properly we reflect his Glory back to him as his Sons. If we serve lies, we serve Satan. We must be born again by the Word of God. We must be washed by his Word and Sanctified in his truth. The washing of regeneration. The baptism of the new birth.
This is not true. Angels are affected by time. Daniel had to wait a period of time because for a period of time, the angel which came to him, was tied up in battle in the Spiritual realm.
You error not seeing the plain truth. "In the beginning" is a clear declaration of Gods creation of time for his purpose. The very first of his creation is the boundary of time which encompasses all Creation and binds it as rule of Law.
See the point above.
Time will always govern creation for eternity. Man wants to be able to go back in time to change events for his purpose. Just as Satan who is bound by time wishes to do.
Time again, not created by man. The byproduct of sin is death.
You have allowed Satan to fill your heart full of lies to spill out into the world. Blaming Gods creation of time, which is good, for the destruction of man.
This is only true because you have an appointment with death. There is a time appointed in which you will die and then the judgment. You have time right now to repent of all sin and walk in the righteousness of God which is in Christ Jesus and God is then Just and the Justifier of them who believe in Jesus in this way.
Blatant deception. Sin destroys our bodies. God put the flaming sword and the Cherubim at the gate of Eden to make sure that man could not get into the tree of life and eat of it, causing himself to eliminate time and be preserved forever under the rule of Satan. Instead though time man can choose to go back to serving God and end up preserved blameless for ever. There is coming a time where man will not have Satan to choose as a Lord.
Time is on our side. It is our friend. It is good.
I don't want to go to heaven. I want to go into the Kingdom of Gods dear Son Jesus. I want to live within the bounds of Gods creation and trust that he will direct it righteously as I serve him.
All Glory and Honor to God the Father who has given us his Son that we might know what it means to serve him, to love him, to honor him. Reject the intellect and serve God.
God is Glory and all Glory belongs to God. I am nothing but a servant. I can do nothing but reflect the glory of God by following Jesus his Son. I shall glory in nothing, save the cross of my Lord Jesus who condemned Satan upon it. Satan is foolish, he thought he could kill God. Instead he opened the door for God to rule over him in Creation. Satan knows his time is short. Time is Satan's enemy. Praise God.
Whose Glory are you?
All praise honor and glory to God the Father who created heaven and earth, whose Son is Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Bow the knee in time and you will be saved. Turn to the Father through the Son and you will be saved.
May God bless you with understanding in all truth that shall cause you to be free from whom you serve, that ye may return unto the creator and serve only him.
The love of Jesus Christ compel you,
Gary
Consider what I say.
I believe God is all knowing because he told me he is in his Word, I cannot just decide to believe with my intellect, all must come by revelation from God.
Peter was absolutely convinced of this when he replied unto Jesus saying "You know all things, you know that I love you." There are many events in scripture that teach us that God knows all things. We just need to believe what he has said and not formulate our own opinions based up our own research.
Free will is not a gift from God. Free will does not exist. What kind of an evil God would give you a gift that can destroy you? Satan, of course, the Father of the lie of free will.
You are a servant. You were created to be exactly that and as a leopard cannot change his spots neither can you. The day you understand this truth is the day you are free from serving Satan.
Satan chose to act upon his own authority that he gave to himself. In doing so, he birthed the illusion of free will and brought confusion to the creation. By confusing the creation through deception, he exalted himself above the throne of God and hijacked the rule given to man over the Earth unto himself. His time is limited as he cannot defeat God. His rule is only going to continue as long as Gods longsuffering continues for the sake of the elect.
All good gifts come down from the Father of lights in whom there is no shadow of turning. This is not a gift from God. Are you sure that you want to blame God for everyone who goes to Hell by choosing to do so? If you determine your own destiny then your destination is the lake of fire. If you let God decide then your destination is the new heaven and earth.
Your blaming God. Only Satan blames God. Please understand, I am not attacking you, but merely showing you that you are currently being used by Satan to breathe his lie into the air. Jesus pointed this out in Peter when Satan was using him by saying "Get thee behind me Satan!". He wasn't rebuking Peter so much as Satan himself. Peter was still under the curse of choosing to serve Satan over God.
God, does not use something that doesn't exist for his purpose. The truth is what sets a man free. The truth is that you as a human must serve as you were created a servant. Remember Joshua who said, if it be evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, then choose you this day whom you will serve. You must serve someone. You are a servant. If you buy into the illusion of 'free will' then you automatically serve the creator of this illusion, Satan. Your still just a servant who believes he is free. A master plan from the father of lies.
We chose who we serve. If we serve God properly we reflect his Glory back to him as his Sons. If we serve lies, we serve Satan. We must be born again by the Word of God. We must be washed by his Word and Sanctified in his truth. The washing of regeneration. The baptism of the new birth.
This is not true. Angels are affected by time. Daniel had to wait a period of time because for a period of time, the angel which came to him, was tied up in battle in the Spiritual realm.
You error not seeing the plain truth. "In the beginning" is a clear declaration of Gods creation of time for his purpose. The very first of his creation is the boundary of time which encompasses all Creation and binds it as rule of Law.
See the point above.
Time will always govern creation for eternity. Man wants to be able to go back in time to change events for his purpose. Just as Satan who is bound by time wishes to do.
Time again, not created by man. The byproduct of sin is death.
You have allowed Satan to fill your heart full of lies to spill out into the world. Blaming Gods creation of time, which is good, for the destruction of man.
This is only true because you have an appointment with death. There is a time appointed in which you will die and then the judgment. You have time right now to repent of all sin and walk in the righteousness of God which is in Christ Jesus and God is then Just and the Justifier of them who believe in Jesus in this way.
Blatant deception. Sin destroys our bodies. God put the flaming sword and the Cherubim at the gate of Eden to make sure that man could not get into the tree of life and eat of it, causing himself to eliminate time and be preserved forever under the rule of Satan. Instead though time man can choose to go back to serving God and end up preserved blameless for ever. There is coming a time where man will not have Satan to choose as a Lord.
Time is on our side. It is our friend. It is good.
I don't want to go to heaven. I want to go into the Kingdom of Gods dear Son Jesus. I want to live within the bounds of Gods creation and trust that he will direct it righteously as I serve him.
All Glory and Honor to God the Father who has given us his Son that we might know what it means to serve him, to love him, to honor him. Reject the intellect and serve God.
God is Glory and all Glory belongs to God. I am nothing but a servant. I can do nothing but reflect the glory of God by following Jesus his Son. I shall glory in nothing, save the cross of my Lord Jesus who condemned Satan upon it. Satan is foolish, he thought he could kill God. Instead he opened the door for God to rule over him in Creation. Satan knows his time is short. Time is Satan's enemy. Praise God.
Whose Glory are you?
All praise honor and glory to God the Father who created heaven and earth, whose Son is Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Bow the knee in time and you will be saved. Turn to the Father through the Son and you will be saved.
May God bless you with understanding in all truth that shall cause you to be free from whom you serve, that ye may return unto the creator and serve only him.
The love of Jesus Christ compel you,
Gary
Thiscrosshurts
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Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
I don't think this refers to Satan
You also seem to be certain that the serpent was Satan.
There is no scripture that I've seen that supports that.
The serpent was created a beast of the field by the Lord God,not an angel.Just a crafty beast.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
You seem to be under the impression that the creation or God himself was duped by Satan.I really can't grasp your position,you say Satan who has no free will created free will with a lie?
Is there any scripture that proves this?
How can anyone give themselves authority,does not all authority come from God?
How then can we choose God?
Can you explain what happened to Adam.
His job was to tend the garden and name the animals.
If Adam's job was to name the animals that the Lord God had created then how do you suppose the serpent got it's name.
Can you please provide scripture.
Amen!
Brother, free will is inescapable in our daily life. From choosing which shirt to put on, to which doctor to perform a surgery, we are making decisions. A being who is able to make a single decision without being forced by circumstances or by other beings, by definition, has a free will.
In the Scriptures, free will is implied within the stories in the Old Testament, also in the teachings of the Apostles in the New Testament.
I believe God has given us free will because He love us. And He desires communication and relation with us. And a relationship where free will is absent, is not a relationship at all, but a mere scripted events. The fact that we chose to misuse it (another effect of having a free will) has nothing to do with His intention and integrity.
All of the above sentences are quoted from your post.
They all imply the existence of free will. I hope you see that
The truth has been there forever, but unless the man heard about it, and then choose to accept it, it does that man no good at all. See how free will works in this case also?
Amen!
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Donnie Ducati
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Thiscrosshurts & Will,
Thank you for the thought provoking responses. I hope you understand what I am doing. I am allowing certain things to come through me to be typed on to this forum and tested by others such as yourself for truth.
Free Will - Gift of God? I still am not convinced. The right to act independently from the will of God. I am bearing in mind that it is God whose ways are higher than our own.
No, I am convinced that I do not have the right to act independently from God in accordance to moral judgment and action. Since God is perfect and his will is perfect, the only choice that can be made is to follow God or destroy yourself. The fact was revealed that we do possess that ability to choose which is what you call 'free will' but it stands also as fact that there is only 2 choices. Life or Death. By exercising that which you call free will, you die, so you do not truly have a meaningful choice. We must remember when Adam chose he did so in hope that a righteous God would save them. His 'flesh', Eve had already offended and was sure to die. Adam chose wisely to sacrifice himself rather than save himself. He could have just let Eve be judged and replaced but exhibiting the true nature of God within him he chose to die for his bride. When he made this choice he had the mind of Christ.
Free Will from another angle. The freedom to choose what you will do with your life that God has given you. Within the basic confines of Gods Will there is freedom to move about and make decisions yourself. In this light you have a certain amount of freedom to act. But all of your choices have to be rooted inside of the known will of God. I have chosen to do all that I have done today based upon the faith that I have, that it is what God would have me doing as his son. Seeking to do my Fathers will in all things. Thy will not mine be done...the admission that it is only the Fathers will that should be fulfilled and not the will of the children independent of the Father.
Examples of choice given unto me.
I can choose whether or not to marry.
I can choose whether or not to have sex.
I can choose the food that I wish to eat.
I can choose to drink wine or to abstain.
Yes these types of choices are the ones we have free will to do inside of the permissive will of God. We can choose which good we will do.
God never gave Adam a choice. He gave Adam a command to follow by the Spirit of the Lord. Choice entered into the picture though Satan when a meaningful alternate appeared. Eve had no reason to desire the fruit until given one by an outside source. In and of herself she would never have considered it. Adam suddenly found himself in a position of having a choice which came from Satan. The messenger of Satan came to him bearing the fruit. He then having a choice which was created by Satan chose death proving the weakness of the flesh.
Now Satan on the other hand is a different story all together. He was given more power and understanding than man being an Angel. This world is subject unto the Angels for that cause. They were created to be ministers unto God and unto man for Gods purpose. Each one was given their share of Wisdom, understanding and knowledge for the purpose preforming Gods will in his creation. Satan being the hinge pin. One has to answer what provoked him to act?
The only answer that I have is that he has to be the one who was ultimately entrusted with power over others with the expectation that this power was to be used for the purposes of good in others.
The conundrum is 'if God created a perfect creation, how could it go bad?'. Wouldn't the ultimate answer be that if it was created perfect it could not go bad? There would be no weakness in any of it? Yet it appears to have been designed for this intended purpose. We must then ask ourselves what God has said to this intended end. Why was the creation made? Answer, the Father made the creation for his Son. His Son was meant to go and leave off being in the form of God forever to become a part of the Fathers creation eternally as ruler of a perfectly refined world that has no evil within it but consists of Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Temperance, Meekness, Goodness, Gentleness and Faith. Not only would Jesus be the Son but he would have many brethren.
So shall we argue the point or just accept that our only choice is to live or die? Can we see that our choices are simply which good we choose to do? Free will is not really free will, it is living within boundaries set up by a Holy God who is Love. Free will is deciding to depart from that which is good. Satan made that choice without having an opportunity to repent. We do.
Thanks again brothers!
Gary
Thank you for the thought provoking responses. I hope you understand what I am doing. I am allowing certain things to come through me to be typed on to this forum and tested by others such as yourself for truth.
Free Will - Gift of God? I still am not convinced. The right to act independently from the will of God. I am bearing in mind that it is God whose ways are higher than our own.
No, I am convinced that I do not have the right to act independently from God in accordance to moral judgment and action. Since God is perfect and his will is perfect, the only choice that can be made is to follow God or destroy yourself. The fact was revealed that we do possess that ability to choose which is what you call 'free will' but it stands also as fact that there is only 2 choices. Life or Death. By exercising that which you call free will, you die, so you do not truly have a meaningful choice. We must remember when Adam chose he did so in hope that a righteous God would save them. His 'flesh', Eve had already offended and was sure to die. Adam chose wisely to sacrifice himself rather than save himself. He could have just let Eve be judged and replaced but exhibiting the true nature of God within him he chose to die for his bride. When he made this choice he had the mind of Christ.
Free Will from another angle. The freedom to choose what you will do with your life that God has given you. Within the basic confines of Gods Will there is freedom to move about and make decisions yourself. In this light you have a certain amount of freedom to act. But all of your choices have to be rooted inside of the known will of God. I have chosen to do all that I have done today based upon the faith that I have, that it is what God would have me doing as his son. Seeking to do my Fathers will in all things. Thy will not mine be done...the admission that it is only the Fathers will that should be fulfilled and not the will of the children independent of the Father.
Examples of choice given unto me.
I can choose whether or not to marry.
I can choose whether or not to have sex.
I can choose the food that I wish to eat.
I can choose to drink wine or to abstain.
Yes these types of choices are the ones we have free will to do inside of the permissive will of God. We can choose which good we will do.
God never gave Adam a choice. He gave Adam a command to follow by the Spirit of the Lord. Choice entered into the picture though Satan when a meaningful alternate appeared. Eve had no reason to desire the fruit until given one by an outside source. In and of herself she would never have considered it. Adam suddenly found himself in a position of having a choice which came from Satan. The messenger of Satan came to him bearing the fruit. He then having a choice which was created by Satan chose death proving the weakness of the flesh.
Now Satan on the other hand is a different story all together. He was given more power and understanding than man being an Angel. This world is subject unto the Angels for that cause. They were created to be ministers unto God and unto man for Gods purpose. Each one was given their share of Wisdom, understanding and knowledge for the purpose preforming Gods will in his creation. Satan being the hinge pin. One has to answer what provoked him to act?
The only answer that I have is that he has to be the one who was ultimately entrusted with power over others with the expectation that this power was to be used for the purposes of good in others.
The conundrum is 'if God created a perfect creation, how could it go bad?'. Wouldn't the ultimate answer be that if it was created perfect it could not go bad? There would be no weakness in any of it? Yet it appears to have been designed for this intended purpose. We must then ask ourselves what God has said to this intended end. Why was the creation made? Answer, the Father made the creation for his Son. His Son was meant to go and leave off being in the form of God forever to become a part of the Fathers creation eternally as ruler of a perfectly refined world that has no evil within it but consists of Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Temperance, Meekness, Goodness, Gentleness and Faith. Not only would Jesus be the Son but he would have many brethren.
So shall we argue the point or just accept that our only choice is to live or die? Can we see that our choices are simply which good we choose to do? Free will is not really free will, it is living within boundaries set up by a Holy God who is Love. Free will is deciding to depart from that which is good. Satan made that choice without having an opportunity to repent. We do.
Thanks again brothers!
Gary
Follow The Lion
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Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit.
God gave us freedom of choice. Without this, we would be mindless robots, forced to glorify the Lord. If you think about it, God actually loves us so much that He allows us to go to hell if we want to. He could easily force us to worship and praise Him, but He is so kind that He gives us a choice whether we want to follow Him or not.
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Kit Carson
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Well ya all:
God is the creator, and he is in the process of his perfect creation. It is not complete yet, we are a part of the creation.
There is war and conflict in heaven and on earth, it became a product of the creation, and through time and work and our willingness to accept God and by the use of our own free will to accept, eventually a new heaven and earth will be created. We are living beings, with individual minds and eventually the new creation will be those who willingly accept.
As for God not knowing, Ha!!! that is a funny one.
When things are said such as when Jesus say no man knows the time or the hour of my return, only the father knows, or it will be in this generation or that one, remember that prayer can and does change things. That God will do as he has planned only when the full measure of sin or his aggravation is reached. But there is no time line, as prayer does change some things.
As God says simply, if all would turn from evil, he would heal all. There would be no need for many things. But he knows this will not happen so he told us what will take place.
Kit
God is the creator, and he is in the process of his perfect creation. It is not complete yet, we are a part of the creation.
There is war and conflict in heaven and on earth, it became a product of the creation, and through time and work and our willingness to accept God and by the use of our own free will to accept, eventually a new heaven and earth will be created. We are living beings, with individual minds and eventually the new creation will be those who willingly accept.
As for God not knowing, Ha!!! that is a funny one.
When things are said such as when Jesus say no man knows the time or the hour of my return, only the father knows, or it will be in this generation or that one, remember that prayer can and does change things. That God will do as he has planned only when the full measure of sin or his aggravation is reached. But there is no time line, as prayer does change some things.
As God says simply, if all would turn from evil, he would heal all. There would be no need for many things. But he knows this will not happen so he told us what will take place.
Kit
aaroncam85
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many people have mentioned the gift of free will, this means many people have to suffer and some will end up in hell because God gave us free will
aaroncam85
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surely adam and eve had a choice whether to eat of the fruit or not, surely thats a choice they made freely and if they didn't make it freely they can't be held accountable and God should not of cursed them
Kit Carson
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Hey:
Free will is a precious gift. It is by our own mind we accept or allow or destroy ourselves.
Lets step into the world for a bit.
I hire an employee and he steals from me. So I tell him I am aware of his theft and speak with him and tell him to cease and desist and if he wants something to come ask me and I will just give it to him.
So a month goes by and again he takes the company gas card and fills up his personal vehicle, again I am tolerant as the employee is skilled, and this time I take the gas cost out of his salary and tell him there are no more free rides.
A couple months go past and he is pulled over for speeding in the company van and also cocaine is found in the van.
That is it, he is done. I care nothing more about him, I am concerned with is family and his loss of a job, for sure, but I will not tolerate his nonsense any longer. He has by his own free will destroyed himself. He had ample opportunity to make his own choice.
So it is with God. Except God is much more forgiving than I am.
Kit
aaroncam85
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i agree there is free will, the beginning of my post was an excerpt from a previous post, didn't realise we had a quote button
To clear the air:
The only reason we have what has been deemed here as free will is the fact that part of the character of God that will not force himself upon anyone except to destroy them if they pose a threat. The ability to act independently of God is simply rooted in his character and Satan has capitalized upon this fact to deceive people into following him.
Adam subject the creation to vanity in hope. A conscience choice deliberately made because he full well knew that his Father, God would save them both. He made the decision before his mind was corrupted and his eyes opened. He was the first one who made a decision to go into the world to save another. To give his life a ransom for one. He is the picture of Jesus who is the one promised to come. In Adam all die but in Christ all are made alive.
Going against the character of God only brings death. Living within the confines of the Fathers will and character, being able to make choices between the good we will do, is our Fathers allowance unto us his children.
To act upon some preconceived notion that God will allow you to be your own God, will cause you to abide in death and the wrath of God shall abide upon you as it does all the children of disobedience.
I speak the truth in Christ, my conscience bearing me witness,
Gary
faithfulservant
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GDEmoss, I have a question for you: Are you a "Calvinist?"
Tribulation
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Thank you. I do too.
If I can "CHOOSE" to eat what I want. That is a choice. Sure God is providing. I understand that. But it's my will at work. I'm exercising my own "free will".
Hamburger or Hotdog
If I can CHOOSE between taking my dog for a walk at the park, or sit on the couch and watch tv, and let the dog outside in the backyard by himself. It's not up to God, what I decide at that moment. God gave me the freedom to choose.
I can go to church on Sunday, if I want. Or on Saturday. It's up to me.
I don't agree with gdemoss's at all.
I can "believe" what I want.
If I want to believe God is AWESOME... I can.
gddemoss is implying that if I can't find the Bible verse that specifically states... "God is awesome"... it's NOT true.
If I want to laugh at something. And believe that's OK by God. That's what I believe.
But gdemoss is saying that ANYTHING that is not written in the Bible, is disobedience to God. And since there IS NOT a Bible verse that says it's OK to laugh. Means I'm being disobedient.
What if I "believe" it's OK to smile? But can't find the Bible verse in the Bible. Does that mean I'm WRONG.... because The Bible doesn't say it's OK to smile.
Or comb my hair
Or play XBOX360
Or chew bubble gum
or wash my car
You get the point. But I completely disagree with gdemoss.
He makes NO sense to me.
I am not a follower of any man. If the things I say reflect the words expressed through another man, then it is witness that we are moved by the same spirit. I don't know the works of John Calvin except what others have said of them. Whether they spoke true of him or false I cannot tell. What I do know is that John Calvin is dead and buried. Jesus is alive and well, his spirit continues. John Calvin will be ressurected with the rest of the dead. For those who in patient continuance in well doing, eternal life. But those who are contentious and obey not the truth, second death.
I follow Jesus who is the Word of God.
May you find peace with God in all you do, I pray that by patient continuance in well doing, you and I will enjoy eternal life with the Father and Son in the new heaven and earth.
Gary
aaroncam85
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sorry if i come across rude, i just really need an answer to my questions, God knew man would fall but He still created us, He knew many would suffer and some go to hell but He still chose to create us, why?
