Is God All Knowing?

[Donnie]

Yes I believe in an invisible creator.
I got this idea from scripture.

I find that reasoning as convincing as that of the Muslim who will state the exact same thing, the only difference being that he is pointing towards another old book.

"What the book says is true!"
"How do you know that?"
"Because it says so in the book!"

Surely you can glean the liabilities of thinking along these lines.

It is called a tautology, my dear.

That is your assumption It's not my take on scripture.

It isn't? How remarkable!
Here I go a-thinking in my naivety that the whole point of Christianity is salvation from Hell by bowing down to Jesus....

Golly, I am glad I was wrong.
I reckon I just keep sinning right along and not paying any mind to Yahweh and his truculent son because according to TCH, non-Christians do not get thrown into the pit after all.

You do realize, TCH, that yours is a minority opinion within your group of merry Christians?

Donnie

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I find that reasoning as convincing as that of the Muslim who will state the exact same thing, the only difference being that he is pointing towards another old book.

If we were in a Muslim forum I would expect proof from Muslim scripture.
If I was in a science oriented forum I would expect scientific evidence.
If I went to an Atheist forum to talk about nothing then I would offer nothing as my proof.I would simply talk down to each member like atheists do.I would let them all know I had done more research about nothing than them.
And maybe try to convince them my nothing is the true nothing.
The name of the forum is Talkjesus.That should be a clue that you can expect people to talk about Jesus.If there is a sight called talknothing then I would go there if I had the urge to talk about nothing.

Golly, I am glad I was wrong.
I reckon I just keep sinning right along and not paying any mind to Yahweh and his truculent son because according to TCH, non-Christians do not get thrown into the pit after all.

Where you looking for a reason to stop sinning?I thought you were just having fun trolling Believers.

You do realize, TCH, that yours is a minority opinion within your group of merry Christians

I'm sure if I was an Atheist other Atheists would say I held a minority position because my nothing would seem a little different from theirs.

 

[faithfulservant]

This sounds like your saying that your going to at some point gather your thoughts and pray on how to share them with me but that isn't happening right now. Instead your going to start without the preparation. This is how your words read straight out.



I am learning not to testify of myself. I am trying to learn how to share things in love. Having my speech always with grace seasoned with salt, yet someone else will need to testify to my effectiveness.



If this is true then why isn't it happening to me? As I let go of the idea that I personally have a choice to somehow live outside of Gods will freely, I begin to have more of the mind of God within me because I begin to solely rely upon what he thinks and not what I think about things.



2 Peter 3:9 is a battleground text. Manuscripts very dramatically and the interpretation is deeply affected by them. In one set it has a certain Greek word that translates 'to us-ward' and in another it is one that translates 'you'. The significance here is the context to whom Peter is writing. To understand what 'any' means within the context of what was written, we must understand whether it be 'you' or 'us-ward'. Either way it cannot mean the 'whole world' As it is pertaining to a specific promise. Gods patience spoken of here is directed at either the parties to whom Peter writes to or to them whom he writes plus Peter including himself and all other believers.

Whether it be all Christians or just those Peter was writing to, it doesn't pertain to the world. Just as Jesus said that he wasn't praying for the world in John 17 as this prayer was for those who would believe. God is patient and not willing that those who had obtained like precious faith would not cause themselves to perish but repent instead. Faith comes before repentance. Not everyone who believes will repent of the works of their hands and be saved. And not everyone will believe.




I will be here to study the text with you in attempt to secure the truth between us. There have been some things that you have mentioned unto me that have caused me to drop a certain position that I have and for those things I thank God who sent you with them. Other times what you bring seems to be lacking and I simply wish to show you what I have been shown.

May the Lord put his blessing upon whatever words are his. Whether they be through you or I, The Potter molds the clay.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Gary, I walked away from this thread and prayed for the LORD to show me what scriptures to handle the error you cling to (i.e. that man has no freewill to reach out to God).

I could discern an error in your doctrine (of a Calvinist nature). I asked you if you were a "Calvinist," and you said you know nothing of Calvinism. I believed you, so I was perplexed. I assumed perhaps I was wrong. I continued to pray for the Lord to help me. And He did.

God made a way, by guiding you to make this thread below which gets to the very core of the error you're in. And it does indeed show you hold one of the major errors of Calvinist doctrine: That man has no freewill:

http://www.talkjesus.com/men/40219-did-adam-really-have-choice.html

I then showed you where you went wrong in your view of the scriptures, and I did so with God's word. Adam was not made 100% in the image of God, as if he was a small version of God. We are a reflection of God, in Whom is the depth. Adam did indeed have freewill.

Frankly, I think you are too focused on yourself and your claim to revelation. God does speak through us, but it's always His will, His timing, and His power to manifest. He is not a switch we throw off and on. His will be done, not ours. Everything you type out, no matter how deep you feel you're in His Spirit, is not necessarily breathed out by God. Can you receive this?

This is where humility comes into play. I'm warning you because pride always comes before the fall. It's a principal that stands even for the believer.

I'm not acting like my doctrine is perfect. None of us have a perfect doctrine. However, some doctrines are dangerous and damaging to the Body, especially for newborns in Christ who are impressionable and unstable in the faith as they grow. We have an obligation to be careful of what we share. Saying man doesn't have freewill is dangerous, and I noted that already by showing you how it can create an apathy towards evangelism. The Great Commission is no joke. We are to call everyone to repentance, and assume everyone has the ability to come to a saving knowledge of Christ. We cannot judge or discern hearts, there is only one Judge.

 

[Kit Carson]

It is all very simple.

I was once a child. I misbehaved. All the time.
I have three Grand Children now, they misbehave, all the time. It is my job to teach them, to show them right from wrong.

It is the same with us.

God created us in his likeness. In his image and in his idea.
We are just like kids, and we misbehave. Our free will and choice is very apparent. We chose to do or not to do. And God teaches us. We can accept or reject.

So we are Gods children, and we have to learn.

Kit

 

[Donnie]

If we were in a Muslim forum I would expect proof from Muslim scripture.
If I was in a science oriented forum I would expect scientific evidence.
If I went to an Atheist forum to talk about nothing then I would offer nothing as my proof.I would simply talk down to each member like atheists do.I would let them all know I had done more research about nothing than them.
And maybe try to convince them my nothing is the true nothing.
The name of the forum is Talkjesus.That should be a clue that you can expect people to talk about Jesus.If there is a sight called talknothing then I would go there if I had the urge to talk about nothing.

My word!
There is no reason to get cross, ThiscrossHurts (no pun intended).

So let me get this straight: You posit, in post # 37 of this thread, "Yes I believe in an invisible creator. I got this idea from scripture.", when I point out that this, eh, reasoning is identical to that of ,say, a devout Muslim, you retort by saying "If we were in [sic] a Muslim forum I would expect proof from Muslim scripture."

What you seem to be saying is that what is true about our world and circumstance can be determined by who is talking about it, similar to the multiverse theory.

This strikes me as very odd, since I always labored under the apprehension that there was only one reality.


The rest of your post is so laced with invective that I shan't reply to it, other than by noting ( and not for the first time) that those who claim to be deeply transformed by Christ's love show the same indelible stamp of our lowly origin as non-believers when confronted with critique of their dearly held beliefs.

Donnie

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

What you seem to be saying is that what is true about our world and circumstance can be determined by who is talking about it, similar to the multiverse theory.

I can't say it's true but much scripture seems to imply something similar to that.
Couple that with the observer effect and throw in a placebo effect.
It's up to me to decide what actually works in life.So my personal reality is unique to myself.I live in a common reality with you and the rest of the world but at the end of the day it's what works that counts.
I don't believe in Santa but he is a reality in many young persons.
He is real to the parents who spend money to reinforce his reality.
He is real to the toy store owners and the proof is in the profit.
He is real to the toy and game manufacturers.

Sometimes when all logical approaches fail the only choices left are illogical ones.I was agnostic at one time because I like being right.
How can you be wrong by saying "I don't know"?Saying there is a God is taking an unprovable position.Saying there is no God is also taking an unprovable position.

"What the book says is true!"
"How do you know that?"
"Because it says so in the book!"

I never said what the book says is true.
I said I believe in an invisible creator(the word invisible is optional).
I didn't give the reason that I believe,I got the idea that for the things I posted from scripture.I studied that scripture and came to the conclusion that if scripture were true then those things would apply.

So let me get this straight: You posit, in post # 37 of this thread, "Yes I believe in an invisible creator. I got this idea from scripture.", when I point out that this, eh, reasoning is identical to that of ,say, a devout Muslim, you retort by saying "If we were in [sic] a Muslim forum I would expect proof from Muslim scripture."

If I was replying in a secular forum I would have not said it.
I was posting to those that hold scripture to be truth.
If I were in a Muslim forum I would quote from the Koran.
If I went to a forum discussing the spaghetti monster I would only use known accepted spaghetti scripture to derive conclusions.
I can talk about spaghetti models,multiverses,quantum effects,observer effect,placebo effect,nocebo effect and dark matter..ect.Not that those things are proven or would be proof of a creator but we can at least have an interesting conversation.

Not only does TCH claim to know that an invisible deity exists,

This seems to be your main issue.
I suppose I should have played it safe and said"I believe that if scripture is truth then these things would apply."

Originally Posted by Thiscrosshurts
If we were in a Muslim forum I would expect proof from Muslim scripture.
If I was in a science oriented forum I would expect scientific evidence.
If I went to an Atheist forum to talk about nothing then I would offer nothing as my proof.I would simply talk down to each member like atheists do.I would let them all know I had done more research about nothing than them.
And maybe try to convince them my nothing is the true nothing.
The name of the forum is Talkjesus.That should be a clue that you can expect people to talk about Jesus.If there is a sight called talknothing then I would go there if I had the urge to talk about nothing.

Aww cmon,that was just a little humor from the cross.Besides I'm just being what you expect me to be.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

I can't say it's true but much scripture seems to imply something similar to that.
Couple that with the observer effect and throw in a placebo effect.
It's up to me to decide what actually works in life.So my personal reality is unique to myself.I live in a common reality with you and the rest of the world but at the end of the day it's what works that counts.
I don't believe in Santa but he is a reality in many young persons.
He is real to the parents who spend money to reinforce his reality.
He is real to the toy store owners and the proof is in the profit.
He is real to the toy and game manufacturers.

The belief in santa is real. That doesn't necessitate that the belief is actually true.

Sometimes when all logical approaches fail the only choices left are illogical ones.I was agnostic at one time because I like being right.
How can you be wrong by saying "I don't know"?

You can't be right or wrong by saying "I don't know".

I never said what the book says is true.
I said I believe in an invisible creator(the word invisible is optional).
I didn't give the reason that I believe,I got the idea that for the things I posted from scripture.I studied that scripture and came to the conclusion that if scripture were true then those things would apply.

Of course. If it's true, then it's true. If pigs could fly, pigs could fly. What a pointless thing to say. The question remains why you believe it is true?

If I was replying in a secular forum I would have not said it.
I was posting to those that hold scripture to be truth.
If I were in a Muslim forum I would quote from the Koran.
If I went to a forum discussing the spaghetti monster I would only use known accepted spaghetti scripture to derive conclusions.
I can talk about spaghetti models,multiverses,quantum effects,observer effect,placebo effect,nocebo effect and dark matter..ect.Not that those things are proven or would be proof of a creator but we can at least have an interesting conversation.

So everything is true?

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[eddieb]

the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?

because he wanted a people. we are refered to as the bride of christ. does a man not yearn for a wife? we are made in his image and likeness so refer to people for things like this.

also your question is attempting to blame God for the fall of man. wether you mean it or not i am not pointing a finger and saying shame on you. so dont take it that way. in deuteronomy it says he puts before us life and death and it continues to encourage us to choose life so that we and our offspring may live long in the land. there was two trees in the midst of the garden. a tree of knowledge of good and evil (fruit eaten in disobedience to Gods command) and the tree of life. we or adam had a choice. he chose to love his wife more and eat the fruit of disobedience. He wasnt looking to God. your question is like saying well God knew i was gonna get fired from this job so why did he allow me to get it? and futhermore how would man know the difference if we never fell? maybe there is a bigger plan than everything just being perfect and working out to what we think is good. God can and does bring goodness out of bad. He is that good.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

The belief in santa is real. That doesn't necessitate that the belief is actually true.

It's all relative,to Mattel ,Hasbro and Parker brothers he is tangible and belief in him brings tangible benefits.Who cares if it's true they are eating tonight.
Does that make them right?
Who cares,if there is no God then they are right in stuffing their faces as fast as they can.
So it's relative to who is asking and who is answering.
How do you suppose it would go down if a store employee told a little kid there was no Santa.
An untrue thing can certainly cause a true thing,in this case unemployment.

The question remains why you believe it is true?

It's relative.
In my case it's because it works.

So everything is true?

I'm not sure what true or truth are so I would have to say I believe it is relative to the thing and the people examining them.
I use those words because other people use them.

Scripture claims Jesus is the truth so in my little bubble universe that is the truth.I am aware that probably won't cut in your bubble but that's ok.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

It's all relative,to Mattel ,Hasbro and Parker brothers he is tangible and belief in him brings tangible benefits.

No, just because the belief causes people to act in a certain way (buying presents, for example), does not mean Santa exists. It may be reason for someone to believe Santa exists, but it does not conclusively show that Santa exists.

Who cares if it's true they are eating tonight.
Does that make them right?
Who cares,if there is no God then they are right in stuffing their faces as fast as they can.

I care about whether my beliefs are true or not. That's why it matters to me. I can't speak on your behalf, however.

So it's relative to who is asking and who is answering.

Only the affect of the belief on individuals is relative. The truth of the belief is not.

How do you suppose it would go down if a store employee told a little kid there was no Santa.
An untrue thing can certainly cause a true thing,in this case unemployment.

I'm not disputing that, though. I'm disputing the implication that the belief in the claim makes the claim true. It does not.

I'm not sure what true or truth are so I would have to say I believe it is relative to the thing and the people examining them.
I use those words because other people use them.

Scripture claims Jesus is the truth so in my little bubble universe that is the truth.I am aware that probably won't cut in your bubble but that's ok.

If true and truth are not understood, then saying "Jesus is the truth" is a statement that is kind of useless, isn't it?

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[aaroncam85]

because he wanted a people. we are refered to as the bride of christ. does a man not yearn for a wife? we are made in his image and likeness so refer to people for things like this.

also your question is attempting to blame God for the fall of man. wether you mean it or not i am not pointing a finger and saying shame on you. so dont take it that way. in deuteronomy it says he puts before us life and death and it continues to encourage us to choose life so that we and our offspring may live long in the land. there was two trees in the midst of the garden. a tree of knowledge of good and evil (fruit eaten in disobedience to Gods command) and the tree of life. we or adam had a choice. he chose to love his wife more and eat the fruit of disobedience. He wasnt looking to God. your question is like saying well God knew i was gonna get fired from this job so why did he allow me to get it? and futhermore how would man know the difference if we never fell? maybe there is a bigger plan than everything just being perfect and working out to what we think is good. God can and does bring goodness out of bad. He is that good.

please, you are not understanding, one last time, Is God all knowing?
If yes, He knew a certain percentage of the population; His creation, would go to hell, yet He chose to create us, is it ok for Him to send some people to hell because He wants to create man to bring glory to Himself.

you said maybe my idea of what is good may not match Gods, In the beginning God lived in perfect harmony with man and after judgement the Bible says man and God will return to this situation which they enjoyed before sin, so why did God put us through this test, send some to hell, just so we can return to the beginning.

why did God put the tree in the garden, we as falible humans understand if you tell a person not to do something they are likely to do it, He obviously knew this about us but still went ahead and tempted man.

listen my beef is not with God believe it or not, i know with all my heart that there is a God, but the Bible describes God in a specific way which seems to present God in a problematic manner

 

[Brother Mike]

Why God what?

please, you are not understanding, one last time, Is God all knowing?
If yes, He knew a certain percentage of the population; His creation, would go to hell, yet He chose to create us, is it ok for Him to send some people to hell because He wants to create man to bring glory to Himself.

you said maybe my idea of what is good may not match Gods, In the beginning God lived in perfect harmony with man and after judgement the Bible says man and God will return to this situation which they enjoyed before sin, so why did God put us through this test, send some to hell, just so we can return to the beginning.

There was another thread about this same topic, that I gave example after example of God not knowing. IF God does not know, then Man is to blame.

I'll give one out of the many, since this topic has already been discussed and Covered to some extent.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them

Grieved God at his very heart, that he even made man.

Does it sound like God's plan was suppose to be a failure here?? God knew he made a disaster that would grieve him and make him repent for what he did? God does not plan failures.

I know, some can't grasp simple English when it comes to reading scripture and will want to Argue that God did not really mean what he said here. However, I can give plenty more examples.

God never made man to be a failure....

His creation, would go to hell, yet He chose to create us, is it ok for Him to send some people to hell because He wants to create man to bring glory to Himself.

Hell was not created for us.......

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Putting us in Hell, was never in the plan.......

why did God put the tree in the garden, we as falible humans understand if you tell a person not to do something they are likely to do it, He obviously knew this about us but still went ahead and tempted man.

So, if you tell your kid to not throw the baseball in the front yard because the neighbors cars are nearby, and while at work your kid plays with the ball in the front yard, throwing the ball threw the window of a very expensive car that belongs to the neighbor.

DO You then go to the Neighbor and tell the Neighbor its your fault for telling your kid not to Play baseball in the front yard, and then you tell the neighbor it's their fault for parking their car in their drive.

Is this your thinking?

If God created us to not have a choice of what is right or wrong, then we would be in tree's searching for that next banana.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

There was another thread about this same topic, that I gave example after example of God not knowing. IF God does not know, then Man is to blame.

Please give me the title of that thread (if you can remember it), as this concept is new to me, and one I am interested in looking in to. Thanks!

 

[Brother Mike]

There were a few like that.

It was pretty Hot Thread Peace Keeper. I will P.M it once I did it out.

There are also threads like it through the past years.

Once again, I take the position of the protagonist because I see God as the most compassionate, the most wise, and far above what I can even figure out.

The Thread was really about God having a Predestined planed, set in stone, and get this Knowing ahead of time what man will always do.

I presented a God that speaks from the end to the finish, if God says it, then it happens, but within that divine plan, God finds those he can use to get it accomplished. Some God picks, fail.... Some don't.

God being a faith God, does not fathom failure, he only thinks the best, and hopes the best as God himself is Love. Jer 29:11.

That is what I presented in that thread, and I hope to be able to dig it up for you.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Kit Carson]

In my understanding....

God knows all in the way of intelligence and knowledge and is good and of total truth and mercy. In the way of creation and knowledge he holds all knowledge.

But he gave me and you and all free will. So no God does not know for sure what I will do. I can wear one red sock and one white sock and can switch socks at noon and again at supper. I have free will.

When God tested Abraham did he know for sure......no , he was fairly certain but if he knew for sure, why the test??

Why would God cry out in his very soul with sorrow and say he repents of his creation....you see we do have free will and we do with it as we will, so man became evil and God cried out in his very soul and was sad.

God sent scouts to Sodom, and again be it prayer that accused or Satan that accused, he wanted to be sure....and again Abraham and God had a discussion over if only this many are found will you destroy?

Can things change by good men in prayer......yes can the end result of things change if all would walk away from sin and accept......could the end result change....yes...God is mercy and good and would accept this.

God does not know exactly what I will do....he is pretty sure but not absolutely sure as I do have free will, and he does not control or micromanage me...he patiently teaches and explains.

No one is predestined to heaven or hell, that is not what the Bible says, this is how man says it. We have the choice to accept or not, so heaven or hell is our choice. It is not decided ahead of time.

It is the Ephesians chapter one that much of this idea comes from, to me it shows simply Gods overall wish and plan for us, and the laying out of all , not that anyone is predestined to heaven or hell.

We have free will and with that comes choice. So God does not know what color socks I will wear today.....tomorrow I may only wear one sock......a little humor I want to say more but I best behave. Lol!



Kit

 

[Brother Mike]

God all knowing......

I asked the Lord this once, He said... "How would I know your next actions, or your obedience to me? I created you like me, on my level. How can I call you a child, if you be not like a child."

Take that for whatever it's worth.

One thing that gives us away to God is our Heart and motives. We can't hide that. This gives God great insight as to what our next move may be. still, many scriptures we see God change his mind according to what man had done. For good, or for bad.

How can God not know? It does not make sense to me fully unless my understanding is not complete in Who God really is. I think that is the case.

If God has a nature, then it's Love, faith, and Hope.

Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Love would only be able to think the best, and hope the best for someone. If God does not believe in us, we are already doomed. By God's Nature, and How he thinks, he would not know everything about our future. He just constantly thinks we will get it right, obey, and do what he asks us to do.

There must be a point though where he has to judge, when He knows by our heart we will not do right anymore.

Look at Pharaoh, God set him up as King, Had mercy on him, Endured much long-suffering with Him. Pharaoh come to a point where God used him as an example. Pharaoh just would not listen.

As I said, many do not even know God on a personal level. They never hear him, don't understand the operation of the Holy Spirit, and have all kinds of ideas based in spiritual air castles and fairy tales. Ignoring many scriptures, and changing them according to their own doctrine, unable to comprehend simple English.

God don't know everything..... Umph, that is sure to ruffle religious feathers.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

God don't know everything..... Umph, that is sure to ruffle religious feathers.

That's an understatement if ever there was one!

For now I am just going to read through and watch this thread, and look into the link you sent me. If I chose to jump in head first, with an unlearned opinion on this subject, it would not help anybody, therefore I will not. Unless and if the Lord teaches me something about this along the way.

 

[Brother Mike]

WoW

That shows a lot of maturity Peace keeper. God is certainly not in the Dark by any stretch. Yet I can't ignore all the statements he made about Himself..... I repent I did this, I repent I did that, NO, I changed my mind about this.

We see God say, I will not repent of it, and later on.. God changes again.



In Numbers Balaam Said God does not repent. Well, he was a Rascel anyway, but God would not change his mind about Going against his own people anyway.

yet, God knows the number or our hairs, knows the weight of the very earth, knows more about computers that anyone.

So, I myself had to find what is this issue here. I just can't gloss over so many scriptures with some doctrine about God is outside of time and knew anyway, he was just showing man this and blah, blah, blah.

God is telling us something about himself, something very powerful in his love, and his ability to believe. Yet able to speak exactly what is going to happen from start to finish.

I saw there was a difference in speaking something into place, and dealing with people and individuals.

Even when the Lord has spoken to me.. "Did I not tell you that would be there?"

Did not the Lord know I would miss it? Or did he expect me to listen and know his voice the first time?


Anyway, I am interested in your personal findings.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[aaroncam85]

even if hell was not created for us in matthew 26, the separation of the sheep and goats it says people will be sent to hell, if God knew that some would go to hell why crerate them? and if God is not all knowing can you explain what attributes you feel God has and do you think God can be surprised and does He sit there waiting to see how it all pans out?
What role does He play in our world? if God does not know everything, beginning to end, if more people go to hell than heaven, has the devil won?

 

[Brother Mike]

read above.

The devil is not interested in who goes to hell, The devil is only interested in Himself, his rule, him being in charge. The devil certainly does not win, but will loose everything.

if God knew that some would go to hell why create them?

If God wants people to fellowship with him on his level, then who can say to God that he is not allowed many Children? Just as any Parent, God expects the child to obey, and trust in him. Children that do not, do so at their own hurt.

What role does He play in our world? if God does not know everything, beginning to end,

God plays a great role in the life of those the believe on him. The earth does have a begging and a end. Everything will take place just as the Lord said it would. There are so many scriptures that indicate that God is not forcing himself on any one. God responds to our actions and words. We draw nigh to him first, then him to us. We honor him first, then he honors us. We have a choice, and God told us to choose him, choose the blessing, choose life.

If your given the answers to the test, no reason to fail the test.

Jesus Is Lord.