is OSAS lethal poison?

[Thiscrosshurts]

Mat. 24:7 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The kingdom of heaven is on the earth and it is love,joy,peace,righteousness and fellowship in the Holy Spirit.
This verse is not referring to dying and going to God.

We at least need to understand the different environments the scripture speaks of.
The Kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are on the earth and they are what we will never see if we are not Holy.
They can be sitting right next to you and you will never see it unless you become like a little child.

I am still ,waiting for an explanation about how the apostle Paul and the Gentile Cornelius got "saved" to begin with so that they might lose it.

Stop ignoring the questions that neither position can satisfy.

Example:
Who is a better Christian Barack Obama or Mitt Romney?
Answer= Ron Paul
Obama and Romney are not Christians and I suspect Romney may even be a cardboard cutout.
My point is don't ignore other possibilities that do fit all scripture.

Before we argue about whether something can be lost or not we should try to understand what the thing is and how it got there to begin with.Or wait..I have a better idea, both sides can just continue to ignore these questions and that will answer everything.

 

[DutchChristian]

Mat. 24:7 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The kingdom of heaven is on the earth and it is love,joy,peace,righteousness and fellowship in the Holy Spirit.
This verse is not referring to dying and going to God.

We at least need to understand the different environments the scripture speaks of.
The Kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are on the earth and they are what we will never see if we are not Holy.
They can be sitting right next to you and you will never see it unless you become like a little child.

Those are some strange idea's.

What you mentioned is fruit of the Spirit.

Of course The Kingdom of Heaven is The Kingdom of GOD they are the same.

If you are in a life of sin you simply will not make it unless you turn away from it! Repent i say, stop living in sin and do the Will of the Father!

Take Heed and do not be deceived! If you live in sin because you think that all your future sins are already covered because of this OSAS fantasy story you are in serious DANGER! Even until DEATH!

Wake up i am warning you!

 

[DutchChristian]

Here is yet some more Scripture from the Holy Bible, the word of God to refute this lie called OSAS:

Matthew 18:34-35
And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:25-26
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Revelations 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelations 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Revelations 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

And finally:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

IF you confess your sins, what if you do not confess them... your sin will not be forgiven! If we confess our sins, remember?


Receive the Truth, flee from osas!

 

[Diamondlight]

I have been involved with discussions of this nature many times and it seems to me that the main issue isn't OSAS vs works based salvation, but what the people 'think' they mean. There is no discrepency in the bible about this, both sides of this discussion have merit from the word but it is each side's interpretation of what they think the other side mean, that is the problem here and why this discussion will rumble on for many years.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Those are some strange idea's.

You think questions are strange?
You think trying to gain an understanding of the things we are trying to define is strange?
I think it's strange to pretend to know the truth when you can't even answer a simple question like what did Paul do to get saved.

I am still ,waiting for an explanation about how the apostle Paul and the Gentile Cornelius got "saved" to begin with so that they might lose it.

Stop ignoring the questions that neither position can satisfy.

I want to know what Paul did to get "saved".

Wake up i am warning you!

Are you warning me not to ask questions and seek the truth?

 

[DutchChristian]

You think questions are strange?
You think trying to gain an understanding of the things we are trying to define is strange?
I think it's strange to pretend to know the truth when you can't even answer a simple question like what did Paul do to get saved.


I want to know what Paul did to get "saved".


Are you warning me not to ask questions and seek the truth?

Hello Thiscrosshurts,

Questions are not strange, it is good to ask questions and to seek the Truth, absolutely nothing wrong about that: it is to be encouraged. However we must all be careful not to trust in man but only in God so we go by the word of God for Truth, please know there are wolves disguised as sheep amongst the sheep so be on guard for these false teachers.

Obviously both Paul and Cornelius at one moment believed in The Lord Jesus Christ and got filled with the Holy Ghost.

Did you know that it was the apostle Paul who said:

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. ?

Take care now, and may God Bless you in finding the Truth.

 

[jari]

hi david

I believe that your proposition that they
were never known by the Lord as
stretching the meaning of the parable.

If they were in fact unknown, why were
they waiting for the groom?

because they believed in Jesus but weren't born again.
that's how i would explain it.
one must have real faith in Jesus to become God's child.
the faith that makes born again.
if someone believes in Jesus and is christian but doesn't really know if God even exists then maybe this is what foolish virgin is.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Obviously both Paul and Cornelius at one moment believed in The Lord Jesus Christ and got filled with the Holy Ghost.

Thank you ,I have had to come to the same conclusion.

Why do you suppose they believed,do you think it was because they were shown such overwhelming evidence that unbelief was sort of chased away?
Would it be safe to say they only believed because they saw undeniable proof that the experiences were from God?

So would you say that it might be easier to believe if you are struck down and blinded by light with a voice that knows your deepest thoughts?

In the story of Cornelius you may notice that the message was that the entire household would be saved.That makes me wonder why we have to believe and say some prayer or do some sort of initiation in order to get saved.

It seems to me we would want a clear idea of how to get saved before we can be an expert on how we can lose it.

However we must all be careful not to trust in man but only in God so we go by the word of God for Truth, please know there are wolves disguised as sheep amongst the sheep so be on guard for these false teachers

I agree,however I do expect a teacher of the truth to have an answer to these very basic questions.I am just trying to make ALL scripture work together.False teachers normally don't care to look at scripture which does not fit what they are trying to teach.
I doubt all false teachers teach false things intentionally for harm but most who do so are doing it out of ignorance.

 

[DutchChristian]

Hello again Thiscrosshurts,

Why do you suppose they believed,do you think it was because they were shown such overwhelming evidence that unbelief was sort of chased away?
Would it be safe to say they only believed because they saw undeniable proof that the experiences were from God?

Yes i think so and please know that God can choose and call someone for His Glory and purpose.
Many already believed in God but not yet in the Son of God the Lord Jesus Christ at that time, so The Lord Jesus revealed Himself also with power by the Holy Ghost. And many believed in The Lord Jesus Christ.

So would you say that it might be easier to believe if you are struck down and blinded by light with a voice that knows your deepest thoughts?

i imagine it sure would do that.

In the story of Cornelius you may notice that the message was that the entire household would be saved.That makes me wonder why we have to believe and say some prayer or do some sort of initiation in order to get saved.

You must believe that He is, without faith in God it is impossible to please God. We need to surrender our lives to Him daily and get born again and get filled with the Holy Ghost to receive power from God. That exactly must have happened at that time. God sure was really working there!


Hope this helps,
DutchChristian

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Thanks for the reply, this time I have to agree with you.

"because they believed in Jesus but weren't born again.
that's how i would explain it."

Yes, it most definitely appears that they were not truly born
of the Spirit, that explains why their lamps were empty.

Head knowledge perhaps without the traction in the Spirit
to heed the warnings and prepare for a longer delay.

Hey Jari, that is almost post tribulation is it not.

Where is the groom He should have been here by now!

 

[David777]

Hello ThisCrossHurts.

You asked about the following;

We at least need to understand the different environments the scripture speaks of.
The Kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are on the earth and they are what
we will never see if we are not Holy. They can be sitting right next to you and you
will never see it unless you become like a little child.

The 'Kingdom of God' is the phrase you use when talking to a gentile audience.

The 'Kingdom of Heaven' is the phrase used when the audience is Jewish.

For example, 'Kingdom of Heaven' only appears in the Gospel of Matthew.
Matthews target audience is Jewish, God's name is sacred to the Jews and is
not allowed to be spoken. So heaven is substituted for God.

Seeing the invisible is a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Concerning Paul's conversion it must be remembered that God set apart Paul from birth.
Identical to John the baptist if I remember. In fact, were not the 12 apostles chosen by Jesus,
they did not chose Christ. They were called for a specific purpose. So there conversions
are perhaps are not similar to ours.

You will have to admit that Paul was a supercharged Christian.
I have never seen or heard of anyone similar. What conversion
process?

Paul even mentions this point in the introduction to his letters.

I am not sure that we are made of the same stuff as Paul.
Paul mentions that the Holy Spirit works very powerfully through him.

Oh, we can be lost otherwise the great falling away from Jesus in the end
times could not occur, could it now.

God is not a dictator, you can change your mind at any time and reject Christ
if you do not want immortality. Fall back into the world and sin to your hearts content.

Hey ThisCrossHurts, at least I had a shot at answering your questions.

 

[Rockerduck]

"God is not a dictator, you can change your mind at any time and reject Christ
if you do not want immortality. Fall back into the world and sin to your hearts content."


Wow is that flawed. Your child says he hates you, do you still love your child. Of course, because he/she doesn't understand and he/she is still family. God has a plan for you. God knows if you will reject him. Simple. Jonah refused to preach to Ninevah, what did God do? Once God accepts you into his family through Jesus, you are in the family.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I am not sure that we are made of the same stuff as Paul.
Paul mentions that the Holy Spirit works very powerfully through him.

Is God a respecter of persons?
I don't think that's' scriptural at all,we are all called to be perfect.
The question was "what did Paul do to get saved"?
If Paul was made special and I was not then there can't be any condemnation if I can't be perfect like Jesus commanded and I would be silly to even try.

The 'Kingdom of God' is the phrase you use when talking to a gentile audience.

The 'Kingdom of Heaven' is the phrase used when the audience is Jewish.

Ok,but where are they?off in the sky?Is it for the living or the dead?
Are you saying the Jews and Gentiles are to be separated?

The Kingdom of God is righteousness ,peace and joy.
Do we have to wait for death to experience the peace and joy of the Lord?

Seeing the invisible is a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Yes,you must become like a little child or you will never see it.
It is here on this earth now,these things are not off in the sky somewhere that we have to go bring it down or send someone to fetch it.

My point is that some use scripture about the earthly kingdoms and realms and apply them to an afterlife or future event that we are still waiting for.

Concerning Paul's conversion it must be remembered that God set apart Paul from birth.
Identical to John the baptist if I remember. In fact, were not the 12 apostles chosen by Jesus,
they did not chose Christ. They were called for a specific purpose. So there conversions
are perhaps are not similar to ours.

So these men are given more grace than us or future believers?
Are we expected to believe without seeing while they got to,"not believe" while seeing???
So Uncle Fred who never saw any good thing in his life is going to burn in Hell for eternity because Jesus did not make him special like Paul or Cornelius's house hold?

That does not explain the conversion process at all.
Let me see if I got your position right.
I am expected to believe without seeing and Paul gets to kill and be shown without a shadow of a doubt that God exists and that he is saved because he was called for that purpose.
What about Judas,was he set aside from the foundation to burn for playing his unique role?(please don't divert to Judas)

I am not sure that we are made of the same stuff as Paul.
Paul mentions that the Holy Spirit works very powerfully through him.

Please think that one over a bit.
God is not a respecter of persons and I believe Cornelius's entire house was included in the"didn't do a thing except be born in the right house at the right time" special class that you seem to believe Paul is a part of.
The Holy Spirit worked powerfully through anyone who would let him.

Oh, we can be lost otherwise the great falling away from Jesus in the end
times could not occur, could it now.

Life and death are in the power of the tongue,if you believe you can be lost then no one can overturn your judgement of yourself and those you were given.

Jesus did not come to condemn,but to save an already condemned world by telling it the good news that he had overcome death and the grave and if you believe it you will be free on this earth and in the next life.If you refuse it there is nothing he can do since we reject the grace already provided for at the foundation of the world.

God is not a dictator, you can change your mind at any time and reject Christ
if you do not want immortality. Fall back into the world and sin to your hearts content.

Do you believe I am looking for a way to content my heart with sin?
Have I somehow given you the impression that I love evil because I question man made doctrine?

Hey ThisCrossHurts, at least I had a shot at answering your questions.

I really feel you missed the mark brother.
I have somehow given you the impression I am promoting sin.
I apologize if my questions are difficult but I have no doctrine and I am seeking truth about these matters.
I really don't think you read and understood my position.
I have come to expect better of you David,you normally come back with logic and scripture and not some tired old livestock.

 

[Boanerges]

Looking at the poll I see most people feel secure in the salvation given to them in Christ.
Just some thoughts, first let me say this- I have never met anyone who uses grace as an excuse for sin although I am sure there may be some out there. Those however are the seed planted amongst the thorns (Mat 13:22) and love the world more than Christ- I do not believe they were ever His.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Those who leave Christ- these loved the world had not Him, they were never of us.


We can know we have passed from death to life (salvation -1Jn 3:14).
If we but keep our trust in Him He will never let us go (Heb 13:5) and is entirely trustworthy (faithful ) to bring all to pass (Php 1:6).
Those who doubt are in much greater danger (Heb 3:18) than those who believe.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[DutchChristian]

You are secure in your salvation: if you continue to obey Him, keep His commandments and follow Him.

If you run away from your own salvation or turn towards a lifestyle of wicked sin or if you lose your faith and become an atheist God is not going to hold you back. The prodigal son was not stopped by the father neither... but later he had remorse and turned back to the father = repentance.

You see if you yourself walk away from God you walk away from your own salvation!

Some more Scripture that refutes OSAS:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

does that imply a lifestyle of sin?

Galatians 4:9
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

2 Peter 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Jude 1:17-19
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

2 Peter 2:15
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

2 John 2:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

1 Timothy 5:15
For some are already turned aside after Satan.

And finally the final death blow to OSAS:

1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

IF is that a condition?

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

IF is that a condition?

Colossians 1:22-23
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

IF...

If only you would seek the Truth and pray about this, ask God for the Truth about this OSAS matter and receive it! May HE open the eyes of the ones that dwell in OSAS and pull them all out in JESUS MIGHTY NAME!

 

[Boanerges]

You are secure in your salvation: if you continue to obey Him, keep His commandments and follow Him.

One can do all those things and never know Him.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Only those who walk in the Spirit know His heart and please Him and it is the nature of that one to do love pleasing His Father.

Also, you are inferring a lifestyle of sin where I mentioned none. One who walks in the Spirit is always pleasing to God. A man who seeks to please God by following rules must do so in his own strength and at best produces filthily rags.

 

[DutchChristian]

One can do all those things and never know Him.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Only those who walk in the Spirit know His heart and please Him and it is the nature of that one to do love pleasing His Father.

Also, you are inferring a lifestyle of sin where I mentioned none. One who walks in the Spirit is always pleasing to God. A man who seeks to please God by following rules must do so in his own strength and at best produces filthily rags.

Hi Boanerges,

it is important that we Abide in Him by surrendering to Him, God does the work and we submit to Him. we cannot bear the good fruit on our own!

John 15:1:6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

we all need to surrender ourselves daily to Him and submit to God; it is not our works it is His and we must let Him and not give in to the flesh or to sin.

if we slip up we have an advocate with the Father the Lord Jesus Christ and if we confess our sins He is Faithful and Just to forgive us of all unrighteousness.

Take care,
DutchChristian

 

[David777]

Hello ThisCrossHurts.

I will answer your question ThisCrossHurts.

The question was "what did Paul do to get saved"?

Paul was busy arresting Christians and destroying the infant Church.

Paul was not seeking Jesus Christ ThisCrossHurts.

Jesus Christ collided with Paul on the road to Damascus.

Paul did not seek salvation, Paul was given salvation.

Paul was hand picked by Jesus and set apart, which Paul always
explains in his letters. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

Paul did not pursue this ministry through prayer and leading a
holy life in Christ. Paul did not succumb to the conviction
of the Holy Spirit. Paul was assigned the duty on the road to
Damascus, did not Paul say "woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel".

Paul wrote most of the New Testament, Paul did not even
consult other Christians nor even the apostles. Paul was
supernaturally given the Gospel to preach.

A most unnatural conversion to say the least.

Yes, yes, in general God has no favorites, but the truth
is there are a handful of people throughout the Bible
who have no true choice in life. They are given a specific
duty to accomplish by God for our sakes.

Jeremiah is another one, Jeremiah wanted a wife and
a block of land. Neither option was available to Jeremiah,
he was given the bottom of a well to sit in. Jeremiah
was told exactly what to do and say at all times.

From birth Jeremiah was set apart for the duty he
was given. Jeremiah had no say in it. I am not sure
that Jeremiah even had friends, no one liked him.
The weeping prophet.

 

[Boanerges]

Hi Boanerges,

it is important that we Abide in Him by surrendering to Him, God does the work and we submit to Him. we cannot bear the good fruit on our own!

John 15:1:6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

we all need to surrender ourselves daily to Him and submit to God; it is not our works it is His and we must let Him and not give in to the flesh or to sin.

if we slip up we have an advocate with the Father the Lord Jesus Christ and if we confess our sins He is Faithful and Just to forgive us of all unrighteousness.

Take care,
DutchChristian

My friend, that is what I have been saying all along. One who walks in the Spirit yields to the Spirit in all things. This is what abiding in the Vine does for us- the very life of God flows in and through us causing us to grow and produce fruit worthy of laying at His feet.

 

[eddieb]

here is a couple more "ifs" from john 15:
Joh 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
and...
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

those ifs sure do put osas in check.