IS THERE ONLY HEAVEN OR HELL ?

[B-A-C]

Nothing wrong with that observation. Since there is no specification concerning the procedures during the last judgement we can only make assumption as to where we have to be or where God will be, during our judgememt, since He can go anywhere.

Maybe we don't know where it will be, but it does say where it will not be.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

It seems to will NOT be heaven or earth.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

You are quite correct I never listen to voices in my head that pretends to be the Holy Spirit. I have no need for it since God has given me all the spiritual knowledge I need for now. 2 Tim 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

However if that's somethimg you do, I'm not stopping you.

Am I understanding you correctly? You don't want the Holy Spirit to talk to you because you know it all already?

 

[Bill]

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

So you don't believe Jesus will reign on the earth during the millennial reign?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

It sure sounds like Jesus is leaving heaven here.

Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
It says here Jesus won't be in heaven, He will be in the New jerusalem.
Rev 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;

"Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband."

This is talking about the holy city of God not talking about heaven.

"Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,"

This is talking about Jesus, not the Father who is in heaven.

"Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God."

This is also talking about Jesus, or have you forgotten the Gospel of John chapter 1. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;

Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

I believe Jesus is God, but every one of these verses says the Lamb "and" God. So it can't be Jesus and Jesus.

 

[Bill]

Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;

Rev 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

I believe Jesus is God, but every one of these verses says the Lamb "and" God. So it can't be Jesus and Jesus.

"The Lord said to my Lord."

Something from Scripture, who is it talking about?

Lol

 

[Rhema]

It does not mean that the citizens in question will necessarily reside in the location of his citizenship. An example of this is the Ap Paul, although he was a citizen of Rome he lived in Jerusalem not Rome.

To be precise, Paul was a citizen of the Roman Empire (not the city of Rome), and he did reside within the Roman Empire.

apart from the premise based on Php 3:20 NOWHERE ELSE does it make the claim that ALL of mankind will go there.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,​

(Philippians 3:20 NKJV)

Now is there a difference between "heaven" and the "kingdom of heaven"? One would think not. Our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven is here and now, not just later, although we do expect the Lord Jesus Christ to come from there once more.

But as to your premise, I would agree. No one has gone into heaven but the one having descend from the heavens.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)

I have no need for it since God has given me all the spiritual knowledge I need for now. 2 Tim 3:16-17

Apparently not the spiritual knowledge to know that your translation of 2 Tim 3:16-17 is just plain wrong. (Although I readily admit that I'm not acquainted with your French or German readings.... just the Greek.)

In peace,
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus claimed that not only was he on earth doing the will of His Father he was also still in Heaven with His Father.
God the Father was not only in Heaven he was also in His Son reconciling the world to himself.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!”

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only is the Church on earth reconciling to the world unto God by God living on the inside, we are also sitting in Heavenly places in Christ on the right hand of God.

Think about that for a moment.

 

[Twistie]

You are either gonna bathe in His glory or you are not..

How can one claim to follow Him n not even know basics??

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

 

[Bill]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jesus claimed that not only was he on earth doing the will of His Father he was also still in Heaven with His Father.
God the Father was not only in Heaven he was also in His Son reconciling the world to himself.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!”

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only is the Church on earth reconciling to the world unto God by God living on the inside, we are also sitting in Heavenly places in Christ on the right hand of God.

Think about that for a moment.

That is really good.

I think what can really boggle the mind, Jesus on the cross saying to the Father, " Why has thou forsaken me" . When the Father and Son are One.

 

[Twistie]

That is really good.

I think what can really boggle the mind, Jesus on the cross saying to the Father, " Why has thou forsaken me" . When the Father and Son are One.

Three yet One Father Son Holy Spirit All One Will..

Like we are one yet two cause He put His Spirit in us so that we have the strength to turn away from sin..

For if it wasn't for the power of Abba all would have stayed in darkness loving our sinful ways..

ʕ⁠っ⁠•⁠ᴥ⁠•⁠ʔ⁠っ

 

[brighthouse98]

Brother AntoGoldnagel As there are two sides to every coin, there is both good and evil in the World. This is my very humble opinion of course. You will notice also in God's Word there is no middle ground. Those who look to balance themselves in-between will fall on one side or the other in the end. (Isaiah 5:20 and other scriptures as well you know)

BALANCE was created for all of us brother, we either have it or we do not. NOW!! Can one have balance in one's life and not have balance in another area of their life?? Of Course!! BUT!!! The Lord commands balance!! (Proverbs 16:11) So it is brother we must strive for a full balanced life. It is also wise to have those you care for be in balance in their lives or at least strive for the same goal you have otherwise bad friends will influence you to make bad judgements and cause you to remain unbalanced. This what I have learned in my 71 years bro!

 

[joestue]

voices in my head that pretends to be the Holy Spirit. I have no need for it since God has given me all the spiritual knowledge I need for now

Kick it out before God humbles you..

 

[Rhema]

Kick it out before God humbles you..

(I'm pretty sure he meant other people.)

 

[joestue]

(I'm pretty sure he meant other people.)

I feel like im taking crazy pills.

 

[B-A-C]

"The Lord said to my Lord."

Something from Scripture, who is it talking about?

The Father and the Son. One God, two different entities.

Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

 

[Twistie]

I feel like im taking crazy pills.

It's like dinner at the Table with Alice n the mad hatter(⁠≧⁠▽⁠≦⁠)

 

[amateurscholar]

We are told we are all destined for heaven or hell.
Is this true ?
Paul states in his the letter to the brothers in Philippi.
"For our citizenship is in heaven."(Phili 3:20)
Who was Paul talking about ? Obviously to the brothers in the congregation in Philippi, himself as well, all the Apostles and all of Christ's disciples.
The assumption is made that ALL these ones will go to heaven.
You might be surprised to hear that this assumption is wrong.
Do not go beyond the things which are written;...(1 Cor 4:6 ) With this in mind let us look closer at Apostle Paul's statement.
What does being a CITIZEN mean ? In this case we want to consider what it does NOT mean.
It does not mean that the citizens in question will necessarily reside in the location of his citizenship. An example of this is the Ap Paul, although he was a citizen of Rome he lived in Jerusalem not Rome.
This bit of information tells us, we should not presume Php 3:20 teaches that ALL citizens will go to heaven.

Considering the whole CONTEXT of the heavenly promise there are a few things to keep in mind.
Although it is true that SOME will go to heaven, apart from the premise based on Php 3:20 NOWHERE ELSE does it make the claim that ALL of mankind will go there. Actually the opposite is true.
WHO will go to heaven then ?
We receive some insight from Rev 5:10 , there it identifies those who will go to heaven "....made them to be ... kings and priests;"
Rev. Also reveals what they will do in heaven. It explains:...."and (they) will reign upon the earth."
Another difference concerning those going to heaven is that instead of dying and requiring a resurrection from death, they will be changed from a physical person to a spititual one .
1 Cor 15:51-52 ..."We all shall not sleep (in death), but we shall all be changed, 52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,..."
Will these Kings reign upon a ruined earth ? that would make no sense, the "New Earth" Is a reference to a new society, The "New Heavens" is a new Rulership (Dan 2:44).
In accordance with the foretold "millenial Kingdom" the citizens will be residents on earth ruled by heavenly Kingdom with Christ as King along with his ancillary rulers.
THAT is the Gospel message of Matthew, the teaching that everybody goes to heaven renders this promise meaningless.
Consider please just one more important reason for questionlng the "all go to heaven teaching".
Namely, God's original purpose.
WHAT IS GOD'S PURPOSE for the earth and mankind ?
His original purpose was to fill the earth with perfect man and women. Gen 1:27-28 "And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created them. 28. And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, ... replenish the earth, and subdue it; ..."
This Divine plan has never changed, despite strong opposition.
God is working towards that purpose right now, in spite of Satans attempt to make people believe He's forgotten about it by offering better alternatives.
Was mans assignement to fill the earth a temporary commission, with death to follow and a later promotion to heaven?
NO ! Nowhere is this idea supported in the Bible. Death was only the result of disobedience causing a sinful condition leading to death, it was NOT a natural consequence of organic erosion.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: ...
That is the reason the resurrection was required
Resurrection: Greek (an-as'-tas-is) standing up from a seat or from the ground.
All examples of resurrections were of dead people coming back to life on earth. If we already had an immortal soul that was destined for heaven or hell the resurrection would never have been required and Jesus would never have needed to sacrifice himself.
Psa 37:11 " the meek shall inherit the earth" ...
Psa 115:16 "...the heavens, are the Lord’s: but the earth hath he given to the children of men."
Psa 104:5 (God)...Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.

I already know what the popular opinion regarding these matters is, and I respect that, but if you find that my scriptural rendition is scripturally inaccurate, I would appriciate learning in what way.

I read the interesting theological argument you shared with great interest. I find this perspective on heaven and citizenship fascinating.

Although this interpretation raises some thought-provoking points about citizenship versus residency, I feel compelled to note that Catholic theology has maintained a different understanding for nearly two millennia. The early Church Fathers, particularly Augustine and Aquinas, developed a rich theological framework around the concept of the beatific vision - the direct experience of God in heaven being the ultimate destiny for the faithful.

What strikes me is how this interpretation seems to address a very human need to maintain connection to the tangible world we know. The idea of remaining on a renewed Earth rather than an ethereal heaven can feel more concrete and comprehensible to many people.

But Historically I must point out that the Catholic Church's ecumenical councils, particularly Nicaea and Constantinople, helped establish our understanding of the resurrection of the body and life everlasting in heaven. The Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed both affirm these core beliefs.

That said, I appreciate how carefully this interpretation works with scripture. Although I disagree with some of the conclusions, the attention to textual detail and logical progression shows genuine engagement with the material.

What are your thoughts on this? I'd be curious to hear how you see these different interpretations speaking to human spiritual needs.

 

[Foghorn]

We are told we are all destined for heaven or hell.
Is this true ?
Paul states in his the letter to the brothers in Philippi.
"For our citizenship is in heaven."(Phili 3:20)
Who was Paul talking about ? Obviously to the brothers in the congregation in Philippi, himself as well, all the Apostles and all of Christ's disciples.
The assumption is made that ALL these ones will go to heaven.
You might be surprised to hear that this assumption is wrong.
Do not go beyond the things which are written;...(1 Cor 4:6 ) With this in mind let us look closer at Apostle Paul's statement.
What does being a CITIZEN mean ? In this case we want to consider what it does NOT mean.
It does not mean that the citizens in question will necessarily reside in the location of his citizenship. An example of this is the Ap Paul, although he was a citizen of Rome he lived in Jerusalem not Rome.
This bit of information tells us, we should not presume Php 3:20 teaches that ALL citizens will go to heaven.

Considering the whole CONTEXT of the heavenly promise there are a few things to keep in mind.
Although it is true that SOME will go to heaven, apart from the premise based on Php 3:20 NOWHERE ELSE does it make the claim that ALL of mankind will go there. Actually the opposite is true.
WHO will go to heaven then ?
We receive some insight from Rev 5:10 , there it identifies those who will go to heaven "....made them to be ... kings and priests;"
Rev. Also reveals what they will do in heaven. It explains:...."and (they) will reign upon the earth."
Another difference concerning those going to heaven is that instead of dying and requiring a resurrection from death, they will be changed from a physical person to a spititual one .
1 Cor 15:51-52 ..."We all shall not sleep (in death), but we shall all be changed, 52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,..."
Will these Kings reign upon a ruined earth ? that would make no sense, the "New Earth" Is a reference to a new society, The "New Heavens" is a new Rulership (Dan 2:44).
In accordance with the foretold "millenial Kingdom" the citizens will be residents on earth ruled by heavenly Kingdom with Christ as King along with his ancillary rulers.
THAT is the Gospel message of Matthew, the teaching that everybody goes to heaven renders this promise meaningless.
Consider please just one more important reason for questionlng the "all go to heaven teaching".
Namely, God's original purpose.
WHAT IS GOD'S PURPOSE for the earth and mankind ?
His original purpose was to fill the earth with perfect man and women. Gen 1:27-28 "And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created them. 28. And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, ... replenish the earth, and subdue it; ..."
This Divine plan has never changed, despite strong opposition.
God is working towards that purpose right now, in spite of Satans attempt to make people believe He's forgotten about it by offering better alternatives.
Was mans assignement to fill the earth a temporary commission, with death to follow and a later promotion to heaven?
NO ! Nowhere is this idea supported in the Bible. Death was only the result of disobedience causing a sinful condition leading to death, it was NOT a natural consequence of organic erosion.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: ...
That is the reason the resurrection was required
Resurrection: Greek (an-as'-tas-is) standing up from a seat or from the ground.
All examples of resurrections were of dead people coming back to life on earth. If we already had an immortal soul that was destined for heaven or hell the resurrection would never have been required and Jesus would never have needed to sacrifice himself.
Psa 37:11 " the meek shall inherit the earth" ...
Psa 115:16 "...the heavens, are the Lord’s: but the earth hath he given to the children of men."
Psa 104:5 (God)...Who laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved for ever.

I already know what the popular opinion regarding these matters is, and I respect that, but if you find that my scriptural rendition is scripturally inaccurate, I would appriciate learning in what way.

Yes, according to scripture there are only 2 destinies. Heaven and hell.

 

[Rhema]

Yes, according to scripture there are only 2 destinies. Heaven and hell.

( I kinda think you need to read a bit more closely...)

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Foghorn]

( I kinda think you need to read a bit more closely...)

God bless,
Rhema

I kinda think you don’t know me. For if you did you wouldn’t say what you did.