Isaiah 9:6

[Rhema]

When we see Jesus and the Apostles quoting from the LXX, those particular quotes as from the LXX have the approval of the Apostles and Jesus as being accurate. Isaiah 9:6-7 is NOT quoted in the New Testament by Jesus or the Apostles. If Isa. 9:6 from the LXX had been quoted by Jesus or the Apostles, then that would make the LXX correct, authentic. BUT, again, Isa. 9:6 LXX is not quoted by Jesus or the Apostles.

Dylan ....

You know that's a textbook example of the fallacy of argument from silence.

I would have thought that beneath your scholarship.

Rhema

 

[Butch5]

When we see Jesus and the Apostles quoting from the LXX, those particular quotes as from the LXX have the approval of the Apostles and Jesus as being accurate. Isaiah 9:6-7 is NOT quoted in the New Testament by Jesus or the Apostles. If Isa. 9:6 from the LXX had been quoted by Jesus or the Apostles, then that would make the LXX correct, authentic. BUT, again, Isa. 9:6 LXX is not quoted by Jesus or the Apostles.

Jesus and the apostles quoting the LXX gives authority to the text.

 

[Butch5]

Why does everyone assume this passage is speaking about Jesus?

 

[Christ4Ever]

there were various translations and copies of these writings that He could have used.

And you conclude this how?

The same way you would, if you were being opened minded about researching it and not trying to make a point.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Dylan569]

Jesus and the apostles quoting the LXX gives authority to the text.

Do you believe that Jesus and the Apostles quoting particular verses out of the LXX, means that the entire LXX is fully correct, even inspired? What about when Jude quotes out of Enoch, does that make that book authentic and fully inspired?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15 KJV)

 

[Rxlx]

'and the government will be on his shoulders.'

Sung by pagan Mormons.

Yes. Jesus the son of GOD will govern the world after Satan is defeated at Armageddon the thrown into eternal fire on Judgemt Day.

But right now and for the past 2000 years Jesus has had to sit impotently by GOD's right hand waiting to be told to come to Earth to destroy all liars...

 

[Rxlx]

Just look at all those Mormon singers - all totally brainwashed to believe the nonsense of Moroni aka Satan and his gold plates and all doomed to destruction for being idolaters ...

 

[Butch5]

Do you believe that Jesus and the Apostles quoting particular verses out of the LXX, means that the entire LXX is fully correct, even inspired? What about when Jude quotes out of Enoch, does that make that book authentic and fully inspired?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15 KJV)

There's a difference. The LXX is a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. The book of Enoch is not. It was believed in the early church that the LXX was inspired. However, there is no doubt that it was a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures much earlier than our present Masoretic texts. That Jesus and the apostles quoted it seems to give Creedance to it. If it was erroneous we would expect that they would have quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Also, how do we know that Jude is quoting the book of Enoch? It could be that both Jude and the writer of Enoch are quoting a difference source.

 

[Rhema]

The same way you would, if you were being opened minded about researching it and not trying to make a point.

From my studies, it would seem that variations of the LXX hadn't started to be compiled until after the third century AD.

If you know of manuscripts or witnesses to there being multiple copies of the LXX having variants during the time of Christ, then by all means point them out. It would be much appreciated.

Rhema

(And it's not belligerent to demand that a claimant support his claim.)

 

[Rxlx]

From my studies, it would seem that variations of the LXX hadn't started to be compiled until after the third century AD.

If you know of manuscripts or witnesses to there being multiple copies of the LXX having variants during the time of Christ, then by all means point them out. It would be much appreciated.

Rhema

(And it's not belligerent to demand that a claimant support his claim.)

Boastful Rhema is ever looking (at old manuscripts) but never finding...

Or as Paul put it

2 Timothy 3:7 who are always learning but never able to ...​

Always learning and listening to anybody who will teach them, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Isaiah 9:9;And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria...

The Ephraimites are todays' Anglo-Saxon Christians of England.

 

[Dave M]

God is all sovereign

1 Timothy 6:15​

Which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

And it is only through his Holy spirit that we can learn scripture, he revels it to us.

John 14:26​

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

I trust God, my faith is in God, and no man can corrupt his word, they can try,, but the Holy spirit will lead and guide those who humble themselves and trust in the Lord God ! He will revel the truth to us, no matter what translation we are reading !!

 

[Garee]

House of Israel is actually the Ten Tribes that split from the two of Judah.
Judah became the Jews who are still Jewish.

Still Jewish? How far back can one search today?

How many generations have written documents etched in stone as law?

Remember not all Isarel is born-again Israel.

Some, the ten tribes remained after Jacob the deceiver. . non-redeemed Israel, outward Jew.

The born-again conversion demonstrated below

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob (deceiver) , but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

God is not a racist.

Satan the identity theft. Falsey declaring. I will be like God, I will ascend to the cloud of his presence The father of lies alone is King of the Woke, Gender dysfunction movement. racism, misandrist, misogamist, misanthrope .

You could call it "imaginative apologetics" old age renewed.

The Reincarnation foundation born again over and over progressing apologetics "unburdened by what has been, "Limbo"

Racism is the sin of identity theft judging outward.

Satan murder them all defund the Police, no law no trespass .

Make America the Christian nation greater again. Restore reform .as it is written

Back to the ABC in schools destroying LGBTQ ++++

2 Timothy 2:18-19 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection (on the last day under the Sun)is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.;Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The foundation of God destroys the false reincarnation imagination foundation.

Satan the King of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy

 

[Rxlx]

Still Jewish? How far back can one search today?

How many generations have written documents etched in stone as law?

Remember not all Isarel is born-again Israel.

Some, the ten tribes remained after Jacob the deceiver. . non-redeemed Israel, outward Jew.

The born-again conversion demonstrated below

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob (deceiver) , but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

God is not a racist.

Satan the identity theft. Falsey declaring. I will be like God, I will ascend to the cloud of his presence The father of lies alone is King of the Woke, Gender dysfunction movement. racism, misandrist, misogamist, misanthrope .

You could call it "imaginative apologetics" old age renewed.

The Reincarnation foundation born again over and over progressing apologetics "unburdened by what has been, "Limbo"

Racism is the sin of identity theft judging outward.

Satan murder them all defund the Police, no law no trespass .

Make America the Christian nation greater again. Restore reform .as it is written

Back to the ABC in schools destroying LGBTQ ++++

2 Timothy 2:18-19 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection (on the last day under the Sun)is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.;Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The foundation of God destroys the false reincarnation imagination foundation.

Satan the King of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy

Get a Bible and learn to read it before making a fool of yourself!

 

[Dave M]

House of Israel is actually the Ten Tribes that split from the two of Judah.
Judah became the Jews who are still Jewish.

Romans 9:6​

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

 

[Rxlx]

Romans 9:6​

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Why don't you post the entire verse to get the meaning instead of selectively picking a few words like some lesser Ananaias?
6;Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7;Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8;That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1 Corinthians 12 tells what gifts holy spirit will give - maybe you could pray for wisdom ????????

 

[Christ4Ever]

From my studies, it would seem that variations of the LXX hadn't started to be compiled until after the third century AD.

If you know of manuscripts or witnesses to there being multiple copies of the LXX having variants during the time of Christ, then by all means point them out. It would be much appreciated.

Rhema

(And it's not belligerent to demand that a claimant support his claim.)

The fact is that there were a variety of copies of what we call the OT available to be read by the Jewish people. Very true that the Jewish people of the day might not have been all knowledgeable totally in the Hebrew or Aramaic from which the Septuagint was translated from, but it does not mean that Jesus somehow only used the Septuagint and not the original language of the documents themselves or other copies.

Just the fact that the original documents were many, and varied being used by the translators to make the Septuagint lets you know that prior to Jesus' time not only was the Septuagint available once it was translated, but those documents used for the compilation and translating from would also have been available to be used by those who knew Hebrew and Aramaic. Which is a reasonable conclusion to reach. That some during or thereafter might have had preferences does not preclude the existence and use by others in the original Hebrew or Aramaic of which there were different copies of in existence as well. I would include our Lord Jesus as being one.

Just so you know the only reason I looked into this in the first place was that the statement you made, was declarative in nature. Leaving little to no room for it being any other way. I also looked into some of the statements the below author made, to see if they were so, as it pertained to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and saw no issue with his assessment there. So, whether you find them trustworthy or not is up to you, but I hope it provides you some clarity that you were not aware of at the time you made the below statement. I am also curious to the sources you used that gave you such a certainty to what scriptures were used by Jesus.

Septuagint – the scriptures that Jesus used.

Source:

What Are the Earliest Versions and Translations of the Bible? - Bible Odyssey

Early versions and translations of biblical texts reveal textual differences and similarities.

www.bibleodyssey.org

https://www.ctsnet.edu/wp-content/uploads/Brennan-Breed-CV-FA23.pdf

Note: Given the importance of an academic person's learning to you, and in certain instances I would agree, please find a link to the author's level of learning along with additional information that may enable you to interact with him at your convenience. Only for you brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rxlx]

who cares about earliest translations if your eyes are so dimmed you cannot see the Bible's BIG PICTURE!

 

[Dave M]

Why don't you post the entire verse to get the meaning instead of selectively picking a few words like some lesser Ananaias?
6;Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7;Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8;That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1 Corinthians 12 tells what gifts holy spirit will give - maybe you could pray for wisdom ????????

28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

 

[Garee]

In the thread “Trinity: Is Jesus really God?” by @Yollie, at Post # 94, @DaveM posted 6 English translations of Isaiah 9:6 as a proof text to show that Jesus was God. This was then followed by @Dylan569 posting the same verse from the NRSV (a version not included by Dave) as further support.

FIRST, my thread here is NOT on the Trinity. For the most part it’s a simple essay on the historical context of scriptural manuscripts.

@Dave M, one should not be surprised that the six translations you quoted basically say the same thing since ALL of them are based on the exact same Hebrew text. And this would be what is known as the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Scriptures (what is commonly called the Old Testament).

I would encourage all readers to do a deeper dive into the background and history of the Masoretic Text (since there are actually two versions), but I wanted to bring to light a few details that are highly significant.

The Masoretic Text is the authoritative scripture of Rabbinic Judaism and defines the Jewish canon of the OT. It was primarily created, edited,copied and distributed between the 7th and 10th centuries AD - the years 600 AD and 1000 AD (not BC). The oldest known complete copy of the Hebrew OT is the Leningrad Codex, which dates to 1009 AD (although it is considered to have been written in Alexandra circa 400 AD).

This was the Hebrew text used by all of these English translations, so of course they'll all say the same thing. The MT was the definitive Hebrew OT up until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered.

The differences attested to between the DSS and MT indicate that multiple versions of the Hebrew scriptures already existed by the end of the Second Temple period – the time frame wherein the DSS were written, with a few fragments of the DSS dating back to the 200’s BC.

My point here is that there are notable differences between the Hebrew texts in the DSS and that in the Masoretic texts.

However, while we have basically two versions of the Hebrew OT (the DSS being a thousand years earlier) there is a third version of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint – the scriptures that Jesus used.

For those not familiar with the Septuagint (also called the LXX), after Alexander the Great died, his one general, Ptolemy (Soter), took over the lands of Egypt, including the city of Alexandria, a thriving center of Hellenistic civilization, Greek culture, and academic knowledge. His son, Ptolemy II (Philadelphus) promoted both the Museum and the renowned Library of Alexandria. It was Ptolemy the II who, when looking around Alexandria, realized that there were many many Jews living there, and that he had no idea what they believed or taught. It was he, Ptolemy II, who commissioned a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. Remember, we are talking about the 3rd century BC.

Now the reason I call the LXX the scriptures that Jesus used, is that nearly all of the quotes from the OT that are found in the NT are word for word from the LXX. They are not “new” renditions of Hebrew into Greek. And at the time of Christ, the Jews in Alexandria only spoke Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic.

So, what has all this to do with Isaiah 9?

Remember, the LXX is the oldest version of the OT that we have. And even though it’s not written in Hebrew, it is based on the Hebrew scriptures from that time frame. The English translations previously quoted were from a Hebrew text that is nearly 1,300 years later than the LXX. So, let’s read what is written in the scriptures that Jesus used:

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.​

- Isaiah 9:6 Brenton translation of the LXX

In addition, I’d like to add the English translation of the Septuagint as found in the Orthodox Study Bible of the Greek Orthodox Church (a Trinitarian church, obviously)…

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder. His name will be called the Angel of Great Counsel, for I shall bring peace upon the rulers, peace and health by him.​

- Isaiah 9:6 Orthodox Study Bible translation of the LXX


That's rather the point @Dave M. He wasn't. As per the OT scripture that Jesus used, AND the OT scripture from the first organized Christian church - Orthodox (Trinitarian).

Kindly,
Rhema

Hi I would offer

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

A precursor to chapter 53 and another prophecy in genesis 3:15 two witnesses of the Father brushing the heel of the Son of man the church crushing the serpents head (the gospel)

Isaiah 53:4;Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:10-11Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Genisis3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The first of the three days and nights prophesied demonstrations the garden of Gethsemane it fulfilled the prophecy of two walking together as one. What I call the dynamic dual

Three-time suffering unto death Jesus the Son of man cried out for strength from the other apostles as well as the Holy Father.

Three times the Father put them back asleep in order to fulfill the prophecy of the dynamic dual. Then they move to the next demonstration the bloody hill.

Mathew 26:42-45He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.;And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.;And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners

 

[Rhema]

The Ephraimites are todays' Anglo-Saxon Christians of England.

Because everyone knows that repeated repetition makes something true.