Jerusalem As The Great City Babylon Harlot

Eric E Stahl · Feb 4, 2014

NoHype said:
No, that's actually the Day of The LORD timing there in Zech.14. The Day of The LORD events only occur on the very last day of this present world. That day is when the battle of Armageddon happens with Christ's coming on the 7th Vial per Rev.16 and 19.

That is the timing which will end... the great tribulation. It's those events that end it. That is the time of Christ gathering His Church, both from heaven and from the earth. Other OT prophets cover those events too, especially Isaiah.

That Day of The LORD per Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5 is the day of "sudden destruction" upon those will be saying, "Peace and safety" during the tribulation. That's what Paul linked the day of our Lord Jesus' coming "as a thief" with there.

In 2 Pet.3:10, Peter linked the day of God's consuming fire burning the elements with the time of Christ coming as a thief with that Day of The LORD. So that's more evidence the Day of The LORD will be at the end of the great tribulation, and not at the mid point.

When Israel flees there is still 1260 days left which we call the Great Tribulation.

<style>  </style> Revelation 12:6-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

eddieb · Feb 4, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
This is when the Jews flee Jerusalem with the Lord's help at the middle of the tribulation.

can you point me to some scripture that supports its the middle of the trib? I ask this because I have always thought it is the beginning of the tribulation when it kicks off. I say this because it talks about the war in the heavens with Gabriel and the dragon, dragon gets cast to earth, and then pursues "the woman" in Rev. 12. And before all this I have always thought it was the beginning of sorrows.

NoHype · Feb 5, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
When Israel flees there is still 1260 days left which we call the Great Tribulation.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 5, 2014

NoHype said:
<style>  </style> The time of Christ's Israelite servants in Jerusalem fleeing Judea is given timed when they see the abomination of desolation setup in Jerusalem, like the Mark 13:14-20 Scripture I showed you. It is at that time when the abomination is setup in Jerualem when Jesus then warns about the great tribulation time and that He shortened it for His elect's sake, along with how the deceived will be saying, "Lo, here is Christ", or "lo, He is there", and His command to not believe it.

Here are the Rev.12 verses that go with that specific tribulation timing there in Mark 13:14-22.

Rev 12:11-17
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

That above Rev.12 Scripture is the tribulation time, the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week", the latter 1260 days, the 1260 days God's two witnesses will prophesy in Jerusalem, the 42 months the dragon is given to reign in Jerusalem, the 42 months the Gentiles tread the outer courts of the temple. That is when Satan will make war with Christ's saints on earth. The type of protection upon His saints will be spiritual away from deception, not physical.

NoHype,

Jesus the Lamb will come to Israel when the antichrist breaks the covenant and split the Mount of Olives so Israel can flee to the river ford on the Arnon River.

Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb ((Jesus)) to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday ((Start of permanent solar eclipse)); hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts((Israel)) dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he((Jesus)) shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 5, 2014

eddieb said:
can you point me to some scripture that supports its the middle of the trib? I ask this because I have always thought it is the beginning of the tribulation when it kicks off. I say this because it talks about the war in the heavens with Gabriel and the dragon, dragon gets cast to earth, and then pursues "the woman" in Rev. 12. And before all this I have always thought it was the beginning of sorrows.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The abomination will happen 30 days before the great tribulation starts.

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The woman Israel in Revelation 12:13-14 flees when the devil is cast down and persecutes Israel for a times, time and half a time or 3.5 years.

NoHype · Feb 5, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
NoHype,

Jesus the Lamb will come to Israel when the antichrist breaks the covenant and split the Mount of Olives so Israel can flee to the river ford on the Arnon River.

Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb ((Jesus)) to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday ((Start of permanent solar eclipse)); hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts((Israel)) dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he((Jesus)) shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

I guess you missed those direct pointers in that Isaiah 16 quote that shows that timing is when the spoiler has CEASED, and the OPPRESSORS ARE CONSUMED.

When that symbolic spoiler has ceased (ended) and the oppressors are consumed out of the land, how can the great tribulation continue?

All you've done is quote a section of Isaiah that affirms Christ's coming and our gathering on the Day of The LORD that is set to END the great tribulation by the oppressors upon the saints, which means the end of the latter half of Daniel's "one week" of seven years.

NoHype · Feb 5, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
<style>  </style>
eddieb,

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The abomination will happen 30 days before the great tribulation starts.

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The woman Israel in Revelation 12:13-14 flees when the devil is cast down and persecutes Israel for a times, time and half a time or 3.5 years.

You're just not READING The Scripture as it is written. Even in the above you reveal how wrong your interpretation is, because those Matthew 24 verses show those of Christ's servants in Jerusalem are to get out of Judea when they see that abomination setup there, and in the Luke 21 version Christ also tells those of His in the nations to not enter into Jerusalem at that time:

Luke 21:21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
(KJV)

So if that's about the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, why did He tell His to get out of that area of Jerusalem? It's because of that abomination of desolation idol being setup for the great tribulation time of Matt.24:21 that's in your Scripture quote!!! And then after the shorten period of the tribulation His coming to flatten that area will occur, which then... will be the Day of The Lord and time of His return.

I know why you're failing to really read those verses. It's because you are accepting the pre-trib secret rapture traditions instead, which are from men and not God in His Word.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 5, 2014

NoHype said:
I guess you missed those direct pointers in that Isaiah 16 quote that shows that timing is when the spoiler has CEASED, and the OPPRESSORS ARE CONSUMED.

When that symbolic spoiler has ceased (ended) and the oppressors are consumed out of the land, how can the great tribulation continue?

All you've done is quote a section of Isaiah that affirms Christ's coming and our gathering on the Day of The LORD that is set to END the great tribulation by the oppressors upon the saints, which means the end of the latter half of Daniel's "one week" of seven years.

((God will use the spoiler or antichrist to kill the oppressors in the land.))
[h=2]Zechariah 13[/h] 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 5, 2014

NoHype said:
You're just not READING The Scripture as it is written. Even in the above you reveal how wrong your interpretation is, because those Matthew 24 verses show those of Christ's servants in Jerusalem are to get out of Judea when they see that abomination setup there, and in the Luke 21 version Christ also tells those of His in the nations to not enter into Jerusalem at that time:

Luke 21:21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
(KJV)

So if that's about the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him, why did He tell His to get out of that area of Jerusalem? It's because of that abomination of desolation idol being setup for the great tribulation time of Matt.24:21 that's in your Scripture quote!!! And then after the shorten period of the tribulation His coming to flatten that area will occur, which then... will be the Day of The Lord and time of His return.

I know why you're failing to really read those verses. It's because you are accepting the pre-trib secret rapture traditions instead, which are from men and not God in His Word.

NoHype,
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This happened in 70AD

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This will happen in the midst of the tribulation.

[h=1]The Abomination of Desolation[/h] [h=2]Matthew 24[/h] 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

In 70AD the Romans could not desolate the temple until they took control, then it would have been to late to flee.

Last Things · Feb 5, 2014

Yup- look up the siege/destruction of Jerusalem.

NoHype · Feb 6, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
((God will use the spoiler or antichrist to kill the oppressors in the land.))

You've got that all wrong, for those oppressors of that Isaiah Scripture mean workers FOR... Satan. They represent his "workers of iniquity" that work against Christ. They represent the "mystery of iniquity" Apostle Paul spoke of. They represent the "many antichrists" that follow The Antichrist which Apostle John spoke of. Our Lord Jesus Christ when He comes is Who will end their working on this earth, and not before His coming. That is when Christ will end the Antichrist's reign on earth also.

Zechariah 13
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The one third that is left represents Christ's elect servants on earth when He comes after the tribulation, like He said in Matt.24:29-31.

The Zech.13:7 verse was a prophecy fulfilled at the time of Christ's crucifixion, when His disciples were scattered (see John 16:32; Matt.26:31; Matt.26:56; Mark 14:27).

NoHype · Feb 6, 2014

Why must I go through all this specifically when it's a simple matter for brethren to read and think for theirselves?

Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all the same parallel of Christ's Discourse to His disciples upon the Mount of Olives overlooking the temple mount. Luke 21 doesn't specifically mention the mount of Olives, but the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples do.

I will start with the subject of Christ forewarning His servants about their being delivered up in comparing all 3 chapter examples together:

A. DELIVERING UP OF CHRIST'S SERVANTS

MARK 13 EXAMPLE 'A'
Mark 13:11-20
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

MATT.24 EXAMPLE 'A'
Matt 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(KJV)

LUKE 21 EXAMPLE 'A'
Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
(KJV)

B. THE NEXT EVENTS: APPEARANCE OF THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IDOL IN THE TEMPLE

MARK 13 EXAMPLE 'B'
Mark 13:14-20
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
(KJV)

MATT.24 EXAMPLE 'B'
Matt 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(KJV)

LUKE 21 EXAMPLE 'C' :
PROBLEM! NOT EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE MATT.24 & MARK 13 EXAMPLE 'B' (MEANING THERE'S NEW INFO)
Luke 21:20-23
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
(KJV)

The Luke 21 example has the same get out of Judea and flee to the mountains, and woe to those who are with child ideas, but those two verses in bold are different than the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples. We notice also that a specific warning about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is missing in the Luke 21 example, but is in both the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples, so what gives?

ANSWER: The key verse in Luke 21 is "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." This is from Isaiah 61:2, the phrase "the day of vengeance or our God; to comfort all that mourn;", the part which our Lord Jesus did not read at the start of His Ministry, but instead closed The Book before He got to it (Luke 4). Reason was because that "day of vengeance" part of Isa.61:2 is for His second coming.

That is about the ending of the tribulation, because "the days of vengeance" represents the Day of The LORD events when Christ Jesus returns and God pours out His cup of wrath upon Satan's host there, and God's consuming fire burns up the elements of man's works off this earth, and we are gathered to Christ Jesus, all those events happening within a space of one hour, very quickly (Rev.11 on the 7th Trumpet 3rd Woe).

But right after that "days of vengeance" idea is given, Jesus then gives the woe to those with child that give suck warning, with great distress in the land, pointing back to the tribulation timing.

What this means is, just because the Luke 21 version doesn't flow exactly the same as the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples do about seeing the "abomination of desolation" in the holy place, it is ASSUMED WE ALREADY UNDERSTOOD THAT EVENT from Matt.24 and Mark 13 first. I mean, that event is still there in the same order as Matt.24 and Mark 13, the AOD just isn't specifically mentioned in the Luke 21 example.

In the Matt.24 and Mark 13 versions our Lord Jesus told us He SHORTENED the length of that great tribulation. Thus the Luke 21:20-23 version is a compressed version of Matt.24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20. The meaning is the same in all 3 examples. The final Luke 21 example above is simply revealing the "days of vengeance" that will end that tribulation with our Lord Jesus' second coming.

There's also a difference with the Luke 21:23 example of "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people." That last part in bold is not in the Matt.24:19 and Mark 13:17 examples of that woe.

It's because our Lord Jesus is showing that woe with child idea is a metaphor for the deceived, because that "wrath upon this people" is linked with that "days of vengeance" (time of His coming and the pouring out of God's cup of wrath to end this world). If you never thought about the Isaiah 54 Scripture where that 'with child' metaphor was first given, I strongly suggest you cover it, for it is given as a spiritual metaphor regarding false worship to the coming Antichrist, the idea of not... being found a "chaste virgin" to Christ Jesus when He appears on that "days of vengeance".

Thus the Luke 21 Chapter events did not change anything... in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 order of events. They all 3 are the same, The Luke 21 chapter gives us a little bit more information that goes along with the Matt.24 and Mark 13 events. The order is this:

'A' DELIVERING UP OF CHRIST'S SERVANTS
'B' ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IDOL AND FLEE JERUSALEM, TRIBULATION TIMING
'C' DAYS OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD (ISAIAH 61:2); CHRIST'S COMING TO GATHER HIS CHURCH

rawprawn · Feb 12, 2014

I think Jerusalem certainly has a central role in the prophecies of the Bible. I also think it has a central role in the religious power struggles we observe today between "Christianity" and Islam. Jerusalem has been a battle ground for those two entities, especially the Catholic Church and Islam for centuries. What makes Jerusalem a Harlot? She is in bed with every evil force on the planet. She beds the Jews who rejected Jesus, Rome, the Protestants, Islam, and contains countless idols of gods that have nothing to do with the Creator or His Son. The crusades were fought over Jerusalem, millions have died over her and still today people are dying in and because of her. What I think is more important though is the power behind Jerusalem. I think the greater sin falls on those who possess an use her.

NoHype · Feb 12, 2014

rawprawn said:
I think Jerusalem certainly has a central role in the prophecies of the Bible. I also think it has a central role in the religious power struggles we observe today between "Christianity" and Islam. Jerusalem has been a battle ground for those two entities, especially the Catholic Church and Islam for centuries. What makes Jerusalem a Harlot? She is in bed with every evil force on the planet. She beds the Jews who rejected Jesus, Rome, the Protestants, Islam, and contains countless idols of gods that have nothing to do with the Creator or His Son. The crusades were fought over Jerusalem, millions have died over her and still today people are dying in and because of her. What I think is more important though is the power behind Jerusalem. I think the greater sin falls on those who possess an use her.

I agree with some of that. Yet the details really aren't all that sketchy.

I definitely don't agree with your associating any in Christ's Church with that though, even though we know many believers on Christ today will be deceived during the tribulation.

The ones behind the scenes in control are those our Lord Jesus described as "the synagogue of Satan". That means Satan's workers here on earth that follow him. Those represent the "tares" in Christ's parable in Matt.13. They look just like the good wheat while growing, so it's difficult to distinguish them from the good wheat. They exist to work the negative side of God's Plan. They serve only as a test upon those who choose not to listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son.

Bambi · Feb 28, 2014

NoHype said:
The end time Babylon Harlot is a "great city", not the EU, not Rome, not New York or America, etc. The phrase "great city" is mentioned 11 times in the Book of Revelation, and in final it is about the Holy Jerusalem descending down out of Heaven from God.

Here is the first "great city" pointer in Revelation:

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(KJV)

That's about God's two witnesses being killed with the dead bodies being left laying in the street. Where was our Lord Jesus of Nazareth crucified? At Jerusalem. In Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 23 God called the leaders of Jerusalem that had led His people astray as rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah. So this Rev.11:8 verse is the first huge clue that Jerusalem is the subject of the final Babylon Harlot of Revelation.

The following verse reveals the Babylon Harlot is about a "great city":

Rev 17:17-18
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(KJV)

In final though, the Babylon Harlot Jerusalem for the end is to be replaced with The Holy Jerusalem from above:

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

So how can this be about Jerusalem some might be wondering?

It's because just as Judah fell away in old times that caused God to bring the king of Babylon upon them and take Jerusalem, and then carry them captive to Babylon for 70 years, likewise Judah's falling away to reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ with the object to build a third temple in Jerusalem and start up the Old Testament sacrificial worship again is going to cause its final destruction.

Jerusalem is where our Lord Jesus warned about the "abomination of desolation" idol of the Book of Daniel being setup there, and for those of His there to flee Jerusalem when they see that event unfold. The Romans in 70 A.D. never fulfilled the placing of that abomination idol in the holy place because the temple burned down before they could get possession of it (per Jewish historian Josephus).

I would agree with you that Jerusalem in 70 AD was the Great City, Babylon the Harlot. The two witnesses I believe aren't actually people but the law and the prophets. The Jews disobeyed the law and killed the prophets of old. Jesus talks about the punishment on the Jews for the killing of the prophets. Which I believe includes Christ and the Apostles. I believe that it was either Caligula who placed an abomination in the temple or it was something else that occurred in 66 or 67 AD not 70 AD. Around 66 AD is when the Jewish wars started with the Romans. Something happened then to set the Jews off. I can't remember exactly what it was but I'm pretty sure it happened.

NoHype · Mar 4, 2014

Bambi said:
I would agree with you that Jerusalem in 70 AD was the Great City, Babylon the Harlot. The two witnesses I believe aren't actually people but the law and the prophets. The Jews disobeyed the law and killed the prophets of old. Jesus talks about the punishment on the Jews for the killing of the prophets. Which I believe includes Christ and the Apostles. I believe that it was either Caligula who placed an abomination in the temple or it was something else that occurred in 66 or 67 AD not 70 AD. Around 66 AD is when the Jewish wars started with the Romans. Something happened then to set the Jews off. I can't remember exactly what it was but I'm pretty sure it happened.

If God's 'two witnesses' of Rev.11 were symbolic of the law and prophets, then neither could have happened yet today, because the two witnesses don't appear on earth until the 6th Trumpet timing in the last days prior to Christ's second coming.

It was Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. that conquered Jerusalem, went into the temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar and spread its broth inside the temple, and then placed an idol abomination of false worship to Zeus, and commanded all to bow in false worship to it.

I don't know what in the world you mean with including Christ and the Apostles with being involved with the Jew's killing of the prophets. Jesus and His Apostles did no such thing. You're falsely categorizing all Jews in that when Jesus said that specifically to the scribes and Pharisees who sought to murder Him (see John 8 where Jesus categorized those false Jews with the devil and the sons of Cain, the first murderer).

God's Word is not a speculative fantasy novel, it has great accuracy because of being the Truth.

Bambi · Mar 5, 2014

NoHype said:
If God's 'two witnesses' of Rev.11 were symbolic of the law and prophets, then neither could have happened yet today, because the two witnesses don't appear on earth until the 6th Trumpet timing in the last days prior to Christ's second coming.

???

It was Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. that conquered Jerusalem, went into the temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar and spread its broth inside the temple, and then placed an idol abomination of false worship to Zeus, and commanded all to bow in false worship to it.

There are more than one abominations listed in the Bible. Antiochus is not what I'm referring too.

I don't know what in the world you mean with including Christ and the Apostles with being involved with the Jew's killing of the prophets. Jesus and His Apostles did no such thing. You're falsely categorizing all Jews in that when Jesus said that specifically to the scribes and Pharisees who sought to murder Him (see John 8 where Jesus categorized those false Jews with the devil and the sons of Cain, the first murderer).

I know who Christ was talking to and I was not saying that all the Jews killed prophets. I'm also not saying that Christ and His Apostles did any killing. I'm saying that those Jews that Jesus is talking to killed Christ and His Apostles and the blood of prior prophets be upon those Christ was talking to also.

NoHype · Mar 5, 2014

Bambi said:
???

God's two witnesses will be two literal people, as per Rev.11. That's how the nations will 'see' their dead bodies laying in the street in Jerusalem like the Scripture says. Your calling those two witnesses as symbolic only for the law and the prophets and not as two physical people for the end of days is what I referred to as speculative fantasy.

There are more than one abominations listed in the Bible. Antiochus is not what I'm referring too.

There was only one in history who actually setup an idol in the Jerusalem temple, the 2nd temple which was God's temple, and that was Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. like I said (see Josephus' histories of the Jews). Jerusalem has been conquered many times by the pagans through history, even its name changed once involving Jupiter worship. But the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple which God told the Jews to build is a specific point in history.

I know who Christ was talking to and I was not saying that all the Jews killed prophets. I'm also not saying that Christ and His Apostles did any killing. I'm saying that those Jews that Jesus is talking to killed Christ and His Apostles and the blood of prior prophets be upon those Christ was talking to also.

Good, because the way you worded that I thought you were including our Lord Jesus and Apostles simply because of their being Jews.

dorian37grey · Mar 5, 2014

a few things to consider;
* the great city
is said before in scripture
it is the city next to Nineveh

* the bride of Christ
God married two sisters
both had their breasts fondled in Egypt
( NORTHERN KINGDOM aka ISRAEL & SOUTHERN KINGDOM aka JUDAH )
~* NOTE we call JUDAH --Israel today BUT that isn't what the old testament called them

* antichrist
was ---------------------
is not -------------------
and will come again -

is not --- is Rome ; for Rome is in the time when these words where spoken

was --- a time before Rome ; when we look at Rome we should also remember
--- that it is 4th among the beasts ; so before Rome is in the time of the other
--- one of the other beasts. when we look at Daniel and the 4 beasts , WE SEE
--- THE WINGS ARE TAKEN AWAY FROM BABYLON
--- BUT ARE SEEN AGAIN WITH GREECE
--- AND are referenced with ALEXANDER the GREAT
--- THE WAS ANTICHRIST
--- and we see from his death this movement carried over
--- into the Seleucid kingdom where see future antichrist actions
--- being shown to us in the time of Maccabees as the temple is defiled
--- with pigs blood

* WILL COME AGAIN
following the story line in Daniel
we see ALEXANDER the GREAT
then we see the time f the blood on the temple
with the kings of the north and south story
AND THEN we hear of that come again day
where the antichrist appears at the end

* THE GREAT CITY ;EGYPT; THE SEVEN HILLS; WHERE JESUS DIED

HAM is in Egypt
his grandson Nimrod has crossed the lands of Shem
and entered the lands of JAPHETH
( AGAINST THAT SPOKEN OF IN JUBILEES)
where he builds the tower of Babylon ; Nineveh;
AND THE GREAT CITY
AS WE FOLLOW the story of the beasts of Daniel
we see Babylon; MEDO- PERSIA ; the Greece of ALEXANDER
and finally ROME
and Rome in the days of the Maccabees
where the pigs blood was spilled out on the temple
are invited in to kept order by the MACCABEES
and are still doing that in the time of the death of
Jesus

THIS IS THE SHORT VERSION of what is going on with this verse

Jerusalem is not the harlot; but the four beasts are
(WHICH ROME AND BABYLON ARE OF)
(AND OF WHICH THE ORIGINATE FROM HAMS EGYPT)
;

DHC · Mar 5, 2014

NoHype said:
LUKE 21 EXAMPLE 'C' :
PROBLEM! NOT EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE MATT.24 & MARK 13 EXAMPLE 'B' (MEANING THERE'S NEW INFO)

Hello NoHype.

There has been a visible and enduring problem in eschatology down through history.
This problem in eschatology stems from the confused account given in (Matthew 24).
You have correctly noticed the visible discrepency between (Matthew 24) and (Luke 21).
And for very good reason, for they are very different accounts of the end times.

There is a simple way to unlock the confused eschatology of (Matthew 24).
Matthew's account is almost incoherent and the reason is not obvious to the reader.
The key to the problem is explained coherently in (Luke 21) and by taking notice
of the primary question that the disciples asked Jesus.

Here is the question that the disciples asked Jesus and this is very important.

Matthew 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
“Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of
the end of the age?”

1) The disciples asked Jesus 'When will these things happen'. Jesus had just told the
disciples that the temple would be torn down. So the disciples asked when this would
happen?

2) Then we have the second part of the disciples question. 'what will be the sign of Your
coming, and of the end of the age'. This is a seperate part of the question which Jesus
also answers.

If we read (Luke 21) we have the answer to the first question, the event being the destruction
of the temple.

Luke 21
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains,...for there will be great distress upon
the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led
captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the
times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

In Luke's account the destruction of the temple occurs when 'this people' (the Jews) are led
captive into all the nations and 'Jerusalem is trodden under foot by the Gentiles'. This first
event occurred in AD 70 when Jerusalem and the temple were obliterated by the Roman general
Titus. The temple was destroyed and the Jews were evicted from Israel and settled into all
the nations.

See how clear the account given in (Luke 21) is and how history confirms this account.
The question about the temple being taken apart has been answered by Jesus.
Titus dismantled the temple stone by stone history tells us. Titus ensured that there
would be no further rebellion by the Jews. Israel itself had been obliterated and the
Jews evicted from Israel. Luke's account is almost word for word historical fact.
Jerusalem has been trodden under foot for almost 2000 years!

Matthew's account confuses this judgement upon Israel with the return of Christ.
They are separate events and the question that the disciples asked Jesus confirms this.

Since the account in (Matthew 21) has these separate events blended together.
Then the obvious question arises, why do nearly all eschatology quote from
Matthew and not from Luke?

Why are the foundations of eschatology laid in the bedrock of Matthew's Gospel
without the consideration of Luke's Gospel?

Modern Israel is a secular nation and it is not the Israel of old (a theocracy).
There is no longer a Levite priesthood nor is there a temple. The chair of Moses no
longer exists and there is no need to build another temple in Israel. Why is there
the persistent and erroneous idea that Israel will build a new temple on the temple
mount? Israel is not considering such a thing nor is any other secular nation.
Israel does not believe in God anymore so why would it yearn for a time in the
past?

I can tell you why this idea exists, because anyone who reads Matthews eschatology.
Without reading Luke's account will misunderstand the true eschatology of the
scripture. In Matthew's confused account, Israel is surrounded by armies and Christ
returns to rescue Israel. This is not what happens folks, Luke's account separates
these two events. These two events occur in different era's and are not related.

Welcome!

Jerusalem As The Great City Babylon Harlot

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