No such a thing as a literal Lake of Fire

[Br. Bear]

Br Bear,

I have answered all your questions

Greetings,

could you please try a little harder?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Truthcomber]

No one said that sinners can continue to sin without consequences, The lake of fire will cleanest a person's incorrigible character. This is an extreme measure at the end.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again @Truthcomber

I see that you don't really want to address the questions seriously. However, you are under no obligation to.

about this statement,

The lake of fire will cleanest a person's incorrigible character

Could you please explain how?
And, can you please tell me where it is in Scripture it states that?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Truthcomber]

Below is a website that will explain this better than I.

Is Hell Eternal?

Or Will God's Plan Fail?

Ch. 11 The Lake of Fire and Brimstone

Quote: "Rev. 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word “brimstone” or sulfur defines the character of the fire.
The word theion translated “brimstone” is exactly the same word theion which means “divine.” Sulfur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and to consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228) one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from theion is theioo, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god. (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition.)

 

[Br. Bear]

Rev. 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:1-2

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned
John 15:5-6

And regarding those who are purified, we better not leave out
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
John 15:3-4

Way back, God purged the world and saved only eight, by water, but He has and will keep His promise to never again by water
And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish My covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. And I will establish My covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Genesis 9:8-11
(which is why we, too, [now] can be reminded by His rainbow)
And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between Me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between Me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between Me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
Genesis 9:12-17

Next time is it not by fire?
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Peter 3:7


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,
@Truthcomber

perhaps now you could have another go at answering my questions, please?

@Truthcomber
Greetings,

While i understand your line of reasoning (I think?) a question arises.

If what you present is correct, what is the point of a) becoming a Christian; b) telling anyone or witnessing about Christ Jesus the Lord; c) worrying at all about how we or others live or what we or others do?

It appears that if all are saved, no matter what, then the whole Christian thing is pointless and all the many martyred for Christ's sake was not at all necessary. Do you get my drift?


Bless you ....><>

and may i add a couple more points for question, namely, prayer and repentance?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Truthcomber]

Me: I said all will be saved and restored. Nobody says the wicket will not be punished. Those in the Lake of Fire will be punished the most severely until they repent and relent. God's word will not return to him void.

 

[Truthcomber]

Me: God will restore all his creation. He will not fail.

 

[Truthcomber]

Matt 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the Goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Me: Apparently there are some here that think it is unfair that God saves even the most corrupt as compared to themselves.

 

[Sue D.]

@Truthcomber -- according to your #27 -- your very last sentence. Apparently you believe that the lake of fire and brimstone is more like a purgatory that will cleanse everyone in there from their sins and then they will be out?! Well -- that's Not what Revelation 20:10 says and vs 14 and 15 continue to tell that Death and Hades are also caste into that lake and everyone who's name is not found written in the Book of Life will be caste there, also. And THAT lasts forever.

And It IS true that God will restore His creation -- He Will bring the New Jerusalem down from heaven Himself. And only born-again believers will occupy it. Everyone Else will be in the pits of hell -- the lake of fire and brimstone -- Never to leave. THAT is God's Word.

 

[KingJ]

No such a thing as a literal Lake of Fire

There is a lot of scripture supporting your view of annihilation.

But this belief fails on two issues.

1. All the scripture mentioning ''eternal torment''
2. Free will

Others here have addressed the first issue. Please can you explain the second to me.

Example: How is '''accept me or die'' free will?

If you don't believe free will exists, then explain to me how a God who says He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 excuses Himself / is justified as such even in the absence of giving an intelligent creation true free will.

I would think it be dead obvious given what we know about relationships that anything other then true free will is wicked and only true free will is righteous. We are after all called to be in a relationship with God.

 

[Shutterbug]

I suppose God restoring His creation is a bit like restoring an old automobile in that the automobile will be exactly the way it came off the production line. During the process, a decision is made on whether the original parts are worth keeping. Any parts deemed as such are discarded.. As for free will, we are given the choice as to whose will we prefer to follow: our own, or God. A good restorer can sometimes get a stuck part to come loose, or make a rusty part shine again. God can do that with us, too. But, some parts are beyond salvaging. We can be like that, too. God cannot do anything with us and discards us.

I do not subscribe to the theory that all of our evil will be burned out of us thus purifying our nature. Hell was originally meant for Lucifer and those who joined in his rebellion. Lucifer rebelled against his Creator wanting to be equal to God. His punishment is the lake of fire. Those who prefer to place their own will first, or be their god, are also destined to that fate. Whatever is blemished or undesired will be thrown into the lake of fire. Apparently it will never burn out, unlike the real Gehenna whose flames would eventually burn out if no more garbage (its fuel) were added.

I started watching the Netflix series, Lucifer, out of curiosity. While the show is meant for entertainment, I appreciate the story line will not be identical. One I have made it through the eigth episode and I've watched small segments on Youtube. The episodes seem to get more confusing as Lucifer is portrayed to be as much a good guy as bad guy. The real Lucifer is an enemy of God and the last thing he wants is for any of us take on God's nature through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That part is left out of the show although there is a short scene involving a street preacher and a prominent denomination is featured. It gets a bit confusing for me. But, it's meant for entertainment and not spiritual guidance. I'm just an old sailer who this past week sat in church listening to a special talk on how good it was that an Arabic woman is working to become a Muslim cleric. Islam and Christianity can never be friends. Yet, that is the delusion being propagated in that the bad guy is really a misunderstood good guy. Are ya kidding me?

 

[KingJ]

I started watching the Netflix series, Lucifer, out of curiosity. While the show is meant for entertainment, I appreciate the story line will not be identical. One I have made it through the eigth episode and I've watched small segments on Youtube. The episodes seem to get more confusing as Lucifer is portrayed to be as much a good guy as bad guy. The real Lucifer is an enemy of God and the last thing he wants is for any of us take on God's nature through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. That part is left out of the show although there is a short scene involving a street preacher and a prominent denomination is featured. It gets a bit confusing for me. But, it's meant for entertainment and not spiritual guidance. I'm just an old sailer who this past week sat in church listening to a special talk on how good it was that an Arabic woman is working to become a Muslim cleric. Islam and Christianity can never be friends. Yet, that is the delusion being propagated in that the bad guy is really a misunderstood good guy. Are ya kidding me?

Agree with you. The series Lucifer potrays him as an immoral nice guy. I am sure even God wishes a lot of the series were true. The truth is that God does not remove from his presence anyone not sold out to a love of what is evil. Evil being unrepentant in hurting others and utter disrespect for a loving, soft, kind and caring Creator. Perhaps if God was more ruthless, the fall of Lucifer would have been delayed. I firmly believe it is because of the nature of God, that Lucifer felt more confident to defy Him. God is love.

 

[KingJ]

As for free will, we are given the choice as to whose will we prefer to follow: our own, or God. A good restorer can sometimes get a stuck part to come loose, or make a rusty part shine again. God can do that with us, too. But, some parts are beyond salvaging. We can be like that, too. God cannot do anything with us and discards us.

I don't fully agree. Free will has to be an A - Z reality or it is not true free will and only true free will is good.

Your point on parts is something to consider. It does speak to why we are cast out. But we also need to consider that a human is a creation just beneath the angels and far beyond simply 'a part'. Even those that go to hell, are still loved by God. God watched them as a babies. As children. He experienced the full heartache of their fall into evil. Now just because we and the angels don't want to be with God, does not now equate to God being evil and robbing the wicked of their right to live on with their choice.

If we have two children. One refuses to stay with us and one does. We continue to love both. We just accept that one does not want to be with us. That is what a good person does. That is what God does.

Whilst we know that all in hell are evildoers, we know that not all are as wicked as the other. Among angels, some are locked up in Hades. Among humans, there are those that are barely saved 1 Pet 4:18, meaning that their are those that are barely not saved.

 

[Shutterbug]

For clarification, I define free will to mean we are given a set of parameters to decide on whether we desire to abide by them or not. True free will means no accountability regarding our choices. In Darwinian Theory, the concept of right and wrong is ad hoc as Nature does not provide us a conscience. Therefore, the concept of right and wrong is arbitrary.

In Scripture, we are provided a conscience along with guidelines to further define what is expected of us. Regarding your point of loving children with diametrrcally opposed behaviours, which of the two would you prefer to spend your time with? I agree we are commanded to love both to give them every opportunity to abide by our rules. Which would you choose if you announced to them that your standards are high and you will select that person to be with you bases on your rules? This is the basis of how we maintain friendships.

 

[Dave M]

most agree that this is most likely a true story as Jesus uses names for the first time telling this story, Jesus clearly describes a man that is being TORMENTED for the way he lived on earth. This is punishment, you reap what you sow.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

 

[Brother Paul]

most agree that this is most likely a true story as Jesus uses names for the first time telling this story, Jesus clearly describes a man that is being TORMENTED for the way he lived on earth. This is punishment, you reap what you sow.

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

I have been following the thread through Universalism and Annihilationism etc., but when you posted this I wanted to comment what is in my thoughts and heart.

We see this man (called the rich man) who all his life was as lord to his own self...he was all the god he required, deciding good and evil for himself. He took all the credit for his blessings and kept all without any regard or compassion for another now when he died he is placed in this place of outer darkness and we here of his first woes....but in reality he is not actually alone because there are millions already there.

Now do not get me wrong...in his experience he IS all alone...now consider this? As we know God is grieved at the condemnation of the wicked and loves even the most heinous sinner, what is going on? To me this area of Sheol/Hades is a place where each person sent there is their own lord...each is forever lord of a kingdom one! They have no access to the provisions of the God they have absolutely rejected in this world.

So in their PLACE there is no light because that was God's idea...there is no order to calm the fires of chaos because He did that...ZERO fellowship because not being alone was from His heart, and so on down the line....since they are lord then they must provide all their own needs and wants but alas their alleged power was an illusion and NONE of them (who never ever get to be with another again) can create (bara) or give form to (yatzar) their ideations...

Now imagine this situation with the full awareness that ultimately you are there based on your own choice...a choice you had multiple opportunities to turn from this side of judgment day....and you now must remain conscious of that for ever....hmmm? I can only imagine the wailing and the gnashing of teeth that takes plce in this outer darkness.

 

[Jim]

I bet you never stood on the surface of the sun and compared it to the description of the lake of fire.

I can assure you, there is a very real lake of fire. After Christ came to me as a thief in the night I was suspended over the lake of fire.

 

[Wnl]

Hi all.
Food for thought as regards the word EVERLASTING punishment
Dr Strong concedes that the definition of (everlasting) Greek aion is AGE.
Therefore the adjective aionios pertains to which that is of an AGE,or
AGES
With Love, Wnl

 

[Dave M]

then what do you do with the word eternal?

Matthew 18:8 Adj-ANS
GRK: πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον
NAS: and be cast into the eternal fire.
KJV: to be cast into everlasting fire.
INT: fire eternal

aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Definition: agelong, eternal
Usage: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.