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- Thread starter SuzanneA
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Thiscrosshurts
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I think your on the right track about the "sort of duel prophecy thing".
I find that things which seem contradictory are sometimes actually defining something that we have not yet considered.
Maybe the seeming fulfillment in 70A.D. was the event happening on a micro-scale or a different level.
Like local,then regional,then world. Maybe it is a pattern that has cycles and looks a little different at each level or cycle.
Or maybe like a video game where you face a boss to beat that level.
Anyway your willingness to make all scripture work together,I believe is key.
May your willingness to study to show thyself approved help you rightly divide the word.
Peace
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Hey the verse you under lined you seem to think people will still die.
And also this verse says the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
In Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes ; and there shall be( No More Death, )neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away.
So if in Isaiah if this is referring to people dying . So what does Revelation 21:4 mean?
And also how is that sinners are ther
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I believe those verses I quoted from Isaiah is during Christ's thousand year reign in the Millennial Kingdom on earth. I believe the verse you quoted from Revelation is the eternity which takes place after the Millennium.
Hey Brian what about the sinners there in those verse's ?
B-A-C
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I'm not Brian, but there are a few verses that say there will still be sinners around for a while after the millennial reign. ( Rev 20:7-8; ) In fact they will be around even after
the New Jerusalem comes down. ( Rev 22:15; ) All that aside, I have a question for "post-tribbers". If the rapture happens after the tribulation, where do those who get raptured go?
For how long do they stay there? Is there another waiting period between the end of the tribulation and the millennial reign?
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BAC 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remaining shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be EVER WITH THE LORD.
That's pretty clear we will always
be with the Lord forever.
But let me ask this why do we meet him in the air, why not just rapture us all the way to heaven instead of meeting us in the air?
And also when he says---- we which are alive and remain.
What is he talking about here alive and remain to what? Hint answers in verse 15 and start's with a C.
That's pretty clear we will always
be with the Lord forever.
But let me ask this why do we meet him in the air, why not just rapture us all the way to heaven instead of meeting us in the air?
And also when he says---- we which are alive and remain.
What is he talking about here alive and remain to what? Hint answers in verse 15 and start's with a C.
Hey Brian I've notice by our previous post, you seem to believe in 3 resurrections, ( when Christ was raises) when the (Church is ruptured )
then another at( his coming) Then also 3 comings ( when he came as the lamb of God) then when the( Church is raptured) and (his 2nd coming) it seems you add what you need to keep your believes.
In Isaiah 65:17 it says For behold I create new heavens and new earth and former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
OK let's look at Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Now you said Revelation 21:4 which is the same time as Isaiah 65:17 cause Rev.21:1 is when the new heavens and new earth is , so unless you want to add , and say he makes a new heavens, and new earth more than once, maybe 3 times
Don't to mean to be so forward but we need not add to his word to make it fit our believes but change our thoughts or believes to line up with his word.
So can a non rapture position.. It is not flesh that dies at this time the second death is the death of the soul.. We have 2 bodies a flesh and a spiritual.. You quoted the scripture we shall not all sleep meening die but at Christ's return we shall be change in the twinkle of an eye we will be change into our spiritual bodies.. If all Christians are gone please tell me who God will use for a testimony to speak through.. In 70 a.d. do you think some little general named Titus brought about the worlds greatest destruction .. The western wall still stands to this day or was Christ exaggerating
Like I said, I believe there are three stages to what the Bible calls the first resurrection. I think we all have to conclude there are at least two. I believe there are only two comings of Christ to earth. He will not come to earth at the rapture.
I agree that Isaiah 65:17 is speaking of the eternity. I believe God will only make one new heaven and earth. However, much like Matthew 24 ; Isaiah is speaking of one thing and then without warning begins speaking of the Millennium. Isaiah speaks of a time when people will be living much longer, but still dying, and a time when the animal kingdom will be much more tamed. Seems as if the curse from the fall of man will be partially but not completely lifted.
Now, can I ask you when you believe Isaiah 65:20-25 will take place? If I take the Word of God at face value, and just believe what it says, then I have to conclude that it takes place sometime in the future between now and the eternity, because there is no death in the eternity. I believe it will be during the thousand year reign of Christ known as the Millennium. Once again, if the rapture and Christ's return to earth are one and the same event, then how will there be any flesh to enter the Millennium???
No, I dont believe Titus brought about the worlds "greatest destruction". I never claimed such a thing.
As far as who will God bring a testimony to speak through.....there are gonna be people saved during the tribulation. Believers will be present on the earth.
There will not be flesh in the millennium.. There will be those that still have a mortal soul meaning liable to die.. Rev. Chapter 20 vs.5-6.. We are in our spiritual bodies some with mortal souls and some immortal.. The ones with immortal souls have made the eternity in which the second death has no power over them.. The ones with mortal souls will remain spiritually dead until the end of the millennium.. Then satin is loosed and tries to get as many as he can to follow him.. Then comes the great white throne judgment.. It is very hard for me to understand that after a thousand years with Christ some will still follow satin but it is written some will.. I believe The millennium will begin after the Lord returns and before the eternity.. Where Isaiah speaks of old men and young children, lions.wolves and lamb's is an analogy meaning it will be totally safe he will wipe away all tears..
Frony111, my I ask a question? Do you listen to shepherds chapel? Cause some of the things you are saying sounds like what they teach, verbatim. Addressing the strange things they teach would be worthy of its on thread.
You say some have mortal souls and others have immortal souls? So like shepherds chapel, you believe in annihilationism? Thats also another topic for another thread.
Denying that Isaiah 65:20-25 should be taken literally seems to be the only escape for those who recognize the difficulty it creates. I dont see anything in the context that warrants a non-literal interpretation. Is it also just an "analogy" when it says in Isaiah 65 that God will create a new heaven and earth?
Hey Brian
Like Frony said there is a second death, when would you say this is,
Is it not after the thousand year reign.
And would you say the 2nd resurrection is after the thousand year reign? Would you not say after the 2nd resurrection Revelation 20:5-9 then God will destroy them, this is where they shall die , but they will not be alive till they , are resurrected.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
You and so many more believe that people in the flesh will live during this time. But may ask you whom will these people be ? Are their name's in the book if life? And if, it is ,in the book of life why was they not part of the body (church)?
And do you know when Jesus said he would raise up the one's the Father gave him?
Cause the dead in Christ rise first and Paul says we which are alive will be caught up with them. It doesn't say some will be left here. Do you suppose out of the ten virgin , the five that wasn't ready got to come in later.
Oh can you show me in his word that he comes back but don't come to earth. Cause he said ever eye would see him, he even warns let no man decieve you. Luke 21:27-28 And then shall they see the Son of man (coming) in a cloud with power and great glory.
28- And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up you heads; for your redemption
draweth high. He never said it would be a secret , in fact he warns
By saying ever eye would see him
I am only saying if Isaiah is speaking of the millennium and the millennium is after the return of Christ.. I don't believe anyone will be in a flesh body.. What are your thoughts.. And what is the shepherds chapel? It will be the chose of each individual to follow God or satin. So when you mention annihilationism do you think the wicked will be with the righteous in the eternity? Do you take everything in the bible literally.. If you do I hope your wrong otherwise I better pluck my eye out..
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Hey Brian I would say these verses create a problem for pre trip believers that believe the resurrection in 7 years before the end.
St.John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY one which seeth the Son , and believeth on him , may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
St.John 6:44 No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up the LAST DAY.
St.John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
Even Martha knew when the resurrection was.
St.John 11:24. Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the RESURRECTION at the LAST DAY.
Now if the dead in Christ rise first and this is the Last Day .
How is it people say this is 7 years before the last day
Also Matthew 13: 37-43
Jesus says this --- He that soweth the good seed is the son of man
The field is the world
The good seed are the children of the kingdom
The tares are the children if the wicked one
The enemy that sowed them is the devil
The HARVEST is the END OF THE WORLD
So how is the harvest 7 years before the end if the world
Now if you read Matthew 13 24-30 verse 28 & 29 it was ask if they should gather them up, and Jesus said Nay
Verse 30 Jesus said let both grow together until the harvest ( end of the world)
So why do people try to do this 7 years before the end.
St.John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that EVERY one which seeth the Son , and believeth on him , may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
St.John 6:44 No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up the LAST DAY.
St.John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY.
Even Martha knew when the resurrection was.
St.John 11:24. Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the RESURRECTION at the LAST DAY.
Now if the dead in Christ rise first and this is the Last Day .
How is it people say this is 7 years before the last day
Also Matthew 13: 37-43
Jesus says this --- He that soweth the good seed is the son of man
The field is the world
The good seed are the children of the kingdom
The tares are the children if the wicked one
The enemy that sowed them is the devil
The HARVEST is the END OF THE WORLD
So how is the harvest 7 years before the end if the world
Now if you read Matthew 13 24-30 verse 28 & 29 it was ask if they should gather them up, and Jesus said Nay
Verse 30 Jesus said let both grow together until the harvest ( end of the world)
So why do people try to do this 7 years before the end.
1) I agree that Isaiah is speaking of the Millennium which is after the return of Christ
2)I do believe there will be flesh bodies in the Millennium.
3) No, the wicked will not be in the eternity with the righteous, but they will be in eternal punishment Matthew 25:46 . That verse doesn't seem to suggest that they have a mortal soul.
4) No, I dont take everything in the Bible literally. I allow the context, and various other factors to determine if I take something literally.
Thanks for explaining it is very interesting to see the different views of people .. I don't agree with the flesh being in the millennium.. I think when Christ returns we are all change into our spiritual bodies.. But either way it does no harm .. We are all Gods children we may have different views. But we are still on the same side .. I hope you don't take any offense in my statements because that is not my intention at all.. I think it helps studying when you can look at scripture from a different angle and knowing others views gives me new ways to look at scripture .. Thanks again.. God bless!!!
Every verse you mentioned is concerning Jesus's second coming to earth, and has nothing to do with the rapture. It can be argued that the four Gospels, which are primarily concerning Israel, never even mentions the rapture (maybe john 14 1-3 does), but only the Second Coming to earth.
There will be a resurrection at the Second Coming, and I believe it will involve the Old Testament Saints, and those who were saved and martyred during the tribulation. I have doubts that the Old Testament Saints will be part of the resurrection that happens at the Rapture of the Church, but only those who are part of the Church age. Let me ask you, how is someone a part of this Church age? It is by Spirit baptism 1 Corinthians 12:13, Acts 1:5, and when did that begin? It began at Pentecost in Acts 2 . Many, including myself, believe that Acts 2 is the Birthday of the Church age as we know it today.
Many people don't realize it, but the four Gospels are still mostly Old Testament because a New Testament doesn't begin until the death of the testator Hebrews 9:16. We see that white sheet of paper in our Bibles that says "New Testament" just before the book of Matthew, but that is not when it begins. Much of the four Gospels is under the law, and concerning Israel. If we fail to distinguish between Israel and the Church, then we will think all Second Coming and Rapture passages are one and the same. I understand the middle wall of partition was broken down in this Church age, but it wasn't like that during the four Gospels Matthew 10:5-6 , and God will once again continue his program with Israel (which is what Daniels 70th week is all about) after the Rapture of the Church. That's why Matthew 24 sounds so Jewish when it speaks of "then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains." and "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath" ....its not because it all happened in 70 AD, but its because its gonna happen in the tribulation when God resumes his program with Israel after the Rapture of the Church.
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