Predestination

[B-A-C]

The following verses are used to support predestination and Calvinism. I personally am a free-will believer, and I believe you make the choice to be saved or not.
I believe God gives us the free-will to choose. Some then how do we reconcile these verses.

Acts 4:28; to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1Cor 2:7; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Eph 1:5; He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:11; also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

along the same lines...

Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

To the Calvinist way of interpreting these verses, God chose some people to be saved, and others not be saved. God picked who would be saved before the Earth was even created,
and you have no say in it at all. If you're saved, it's because God "predestined" you to be saved. If you're not, it's because God predestined you not to be.

I do have to admit, I believe it can be a little of both. I think there are certain things God causes to happen. Judas Iscariot was prophesied hundreds of years before he betrayed Jesus.
But I believe, at the end of the day, it was Judas's choice to betray Jesus. So then, did God cause Judas to sin, or did He know in advance that Judas would choose to sin?

In extreme Calvinism, the thought is God is in control. In fact, He is so much in control over everything, and every action that a person does, that even when they sin... God made them sin.
There are even some large denominations that believe this. To take this a little further, on judgment day, God won't really judge the un-saved, because there is nothing to judge.
He made them choose to sin, and He made them choose to never be saved. People can stand before God on the judgment day and say I never get saved, because you predestined me
not to be. It's your fault God, not mine!

But let's go worst case here, and talk about all the verses that say "predestined" in them at the beginning of this post. Depending on how Arminian ( non-Calvinist ) your view is, you might
say "OK, God predestined these people to be saved"... "but there is nothing in these verses that says God predestined them to 'stay' saved after they were saved".

At the end of the day Calvinism is mostly about "free-choice" or more correctly, the lack of it. Irresistible grace says you can't refuse to be saved if God picks you.
Preservation of the saints says once you get saved, you can't get unsaved, even if you wanted to. But again, if you follow this line of thinking... God can let some people "think" they are saved,
and God can let some people be deceived, at least for a little while.

2Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

There are some verses in the Bible that say if you reject God enough times, He will finally say.. "fine". He will give you what you want.

Rom 1:24; Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

 

[B-A-C]

There is a thread that is currently active here on TalkJesus right now. Called "Limited atonement". The entire premise of this thread is that there is no free-will.
God picks some people to be saved, and others not to be saved, and you have no say in your own personal salvation.

OSAS "Once saved, always saved". Always leads back to no free will.
The argument goes something like, God wouldn't let someone be saved if He knew they were going to get un-saved later. So, then we are back to predestination.

But God doesn't stop anyone from being saved who wants to be.

 

[Charlie24]

The following verses are used to support predestination and Calvinism. I personally am a free-will believer, and I believe you make the choice to be saved or not.
I believe God gives us the free-will to choose. Some then how do we reconcile these verses.

Acts 4:28; to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1Cor 2:7; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Eph 1:5; He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:11; also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

along the same lines...

Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

To the Calvinist way of interpreting these verses, God chose some people to be saved, and others not be saved. God picked who would be saved before the Earth was even created,
and you have no say in it at all. If you're saved, it's because God "predestined" you to be saved. If you're not, it's because God predestined you not to be.

I do have to admit, I believe it can be a little of both. I think there are certain things God causes to happen. Judas Iscariot was prophesied hundreds of years before he betrayed Jesus.
But I believe, at the end of the day, it was Judas's choice to betray Jesus. So then, did God cause Judas to sin, or did He know in advance that Judas would choose to sin?

In extreme Calvinism, the thought is God is in control. In fact, He is so much in control over everything, and every action that a person does, that even when they sin... God made them sin.
There are even some large denominations that believe this. To take this a little further, on judgment day, God won't really judge the un-saved, because there is nothing to judge.
He made them choose to sin, and He made them choose to never be saved. People can stand before God on the judgment day and say I never get saved, because you predestined me
not to be. It's your fault God, not mine!

But let's go worst case here, and talk about all the verses that say "predestined" in them at the beginning of this post. Depending on how Arminian ( non-Calvinist ) your view is, you might
say "OK, God predestined these people to be saved"... "but there is nothing in these verses that says God predestined them to 'stay' saved after they were saved".

At the end of the day Calvinism is mostly about "free-choice" or more correctly, the lack of it. Irresistible grace says you can't refuse to be saved if God picks you.
Preservation of the saints says once you get saved, you can't get unsaved, even if you wanted to. But again, if you follow this line of thinking... God can let some people "think" they are saved,
and God can let some people be deceived, at least for a little while.

2Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

There are some verses in the Bible that say if you reject God enough times, He will finally say.. "fine". He will give you what you want.

Rom 1:24; Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

I wouldn't want to face God as a Calvinist!

Believing and teaching that Hell is full of those who God sent there because He chose to do so without giving them a choice.

There's going to be a judgement and a sentence for that line of believing and teaching!

 

[Rockerduck]

I wouldn't want to face God as a Calvinist!

Believing and teaching that Hell is full of those who God sent there because He chose to do so without giving them a choice.

There's going to be a judgement and a sentence for that line of believing and teaching!

All Calvinism has been is a "boo" name for 300 yrs. All he did was expound on the doctrine of Sovereign Grace. God has Sovereign authority over all aspects of your salvation. He sent Jesus Christ to die for you. You can accept Jesus' calling or not, that's the whole equation. I've heard many testimonies of people being called and tried to avoid it. Most accepted, but some ran away. God will pursue you for a little awhile, but if you reject Jesus its done.

 

[rstrats]

Does the supreme being has any input into the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He goes ahead an creates the person anyway?

 

[Charlie24]

Does the supreme being has any input into the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He goes ahead an creates the person anyway?

Ezekiel 33:11

"Say unto them: ‘As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

This is spiritual life and death on the line. The difference in being saved or lost, eternity with God or without God.

God is pleading with them to turn to life, knowing their doom if they don't repent.

Clearly here we see God giving them a choice. Limited atonement according to the 5 point Calvinist is out the window with the rest of the garbage.

God is not sending them to their doom, they are sending themselves by refusing to repent, with God giving them fair warning.

 

[rstrats]

God is pleading with them to turn to life, knowing their doom if they don't repent.

But does He know before He creates them that they will or won't repent?

God is not sending them to their doom...

Revelation 20:15 seems to say otherwise.

 

[rstrats]

God is not sending them to their doom, they are sending themselves by refusing to repent, with God giving them fair warning.

So, you're saying that if someone knows/believes that if they don't repent that they will be cast into the lake of fire to be tortured 24/7 for eternity, that they will still choose to not repent?

 

[B-A-C]

This is all about free choice, free- will.

OK, so God knows the future, I'm OK with that. Maybe he knows who will be saved, and who won't be before they are even born, I'm OK with that too.

But He has to let people go through the motions.

That can't be over emphasized.

Revelation 20:15 seems to say otherwise.

Everyone is born in sin. ( we can have another discussion about babies being saved before they reach the age of accountability if you want )
But babies aside, everyone who is ever born is on their way to hell. God doesn't send them there, that's just the default destination.
He prevents some from going there.

He gives everyone the opportunity to not got there, but for whatever reason many will choose to go there by their own free-will.

No one goes to hell, unless they sin. The problem is... ALL of mankind sins. We don't have to. We want to.
Some repent and accept Jesus. Some try to change certain lifestyle choices. Others do not. It's their choice either way.

God could create robots that never sin, I suppose that would be possible, but then they would never need Him after He created them.
But instead, God creates people that do sin.

If people never sinned, they would never have to go to hell. But everyone sins.

So what do we do? Never create anyone because everyone sins? Well because of Jesus some will be saved. Does God know in advance who will accept Jesus?
Maybe, probably. But He has to let them go through the motions to accept Jesus. If they never accept Him, into the Lake of fire they go.

God doesn't punish people in advance, for what they "might" do in the future. But He knows everyone is going to sin.
He has to wait until they actually do sin before they have to pay the penalty for sin. He has to wait until people actually do accept Jesus before they are saved.
Maybe He knew millions of years ago who the people on both sides would be. But He had to wait until they actually committed the sin, or actually accepted Jesus
before the punishment or rewards could be given.

Why not only actually the people you know who are going to be saved. Why create them as failable humans at all? Why not just create them as eternal being in heaven?
Then they wouldn't have to go through all the trials of life. Well in a way, that's what happens abortions and young babies. They never get the chance to sin.
They never got the choice to sin. Their freedom to choose was taken away.

But God won't punish anyone for what they never did. He also won't reward anyone for what they never did.

 

[Charlie24]

But does He know before He creates them that they will or won't repent?

Revelation 20:15 seems to say otherwise.

I don't think you're understanding Rev. 20:15.

Man sending Himself to hell is based on the Law of reaping and sowing by man's choice.

Gal. 6:7-8

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

 

[B-A-C]

So, you're saying that if someone knows/believes that if they don't repent that they will be cast into the lake of fire to be tortured 24/7 for eternity, that they will still choose to not repent?

That's the reality for the majority of people. But many think heaven and hell are just myths, so they don't have to worry about eternal hellfire.
The "nice" thing about being an atheist, is you have no eternal accountability. But one day they will see there really is a God, it will be too late then.

 

[Rhema]

Some then how do we reconcile these verses.

Apparently I had missed this thread. From a textual analysis, the following two verses were added in by some scribe at some point. (Acts 2:23 was also meddled with.)

For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.​

(Acts 4:27-28 KJV)​

One can just hear the phrase "holy child Jesus," coming out of a Catholic Bishop's pen.

The rest of the verses you posted are Pauline, and I just don't think προορίζω (G4309) means what most people think it does. I could spend more time on this if you wish.

In extreme Calvinism, the thought is God is in control. In fact, He is so much in control over everything, and every action that a person does, that even when they sin... God made them sin.

Yes, they do have an evil God.

He made them choose

Then it's not a choice, but mere rape of the language.

Irresistible grace says you can't refuse to be saved if God picks you.

Agreed, unless such a person is really established in rebellion. But of course it leads to the discussion of why God would pick somebody over another.

God can let some people "think" they are saved,
and God can let some people be deceived, at least for a little while.

Nasty little god, that one.

More later,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

God has Sovereign authority over all aspects of your salvation.

I don't believe that to be exactly true.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

(1 Timothy 2:1-5 KJV)​

The Sons of God, the disciples and believers in the Gospel of Jesus pray for the salvation of others, and hence, we have some authority over some aspects of salvation.

He sent Jesus Christ to die for you.

He sent His Son Jesus Christ to preach the Gospel that instructs us how to become saved, and free those held captive by Jewish Heresy.

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:​

(Acts 13:38 KJV)​

but if you reject Jesus its done.

(So much for Irresistible Prevenient Grace.)

 

[Butch5]

I would submit that the whole predestination argument is misguided. It's about Israel.

 

[Rhema]

Does the supreme being have any input into the creation of a person, ... ?

No. I don't believe so. Not in the general sense. The authority to pro-create has been given to Man.

(Genesis 1:28 KJV) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.​

Now there may be one or two persons where God had intervened. (I can only think of Jesus and Jeremiah at the moment.) But to exert any "input" is for God to go against his own word and command for them to be "fruitful and multiply."

But does He know before He creates them that they will or won't repent?

No. He hadn't created them, their parents did, by divine right. But you speak of knowing the future, and God cannot know the future, because it doesn't exist in order to be known. (I had posted somewhere recently about this.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

But God won't punish anyone for what they never did.

And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children (Jacob and Esau) being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(Romans 9:10-13 KJV)

 

[Curtis]

There could be no "love" for God unless one has the "free will" choice to love God. Besides, we love God because he first loved us as our perfect example.

 

[KingJ]

OSAS "Once saved, always saved". Always leads back to no free will.
The argument goes something like, God wouldn't let someone be saved if He knew they were going to get un-saved later. So, then we are back to predestination.

OSAS is not against free will. OSAS makes the point that God is not a fool who saves a demon or casts a saint out.

Free will and God's omniscience is a topic that can cause your mind to run around in circles all day long.

There is a very simple truth that all Christians / thinkers need to grasp. (Forgive the caps, it is necessary )

God ''CAN'' do what is evil, create from a lump of clay a vessel unto dishonor or from the same lump a vessel unto honor Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

But as I say to all Calvinists I talk to, just because God ''CAN'' do something does not mean He ''DOES'' it.

God ''DOES'' what ''PLEASES'' Him Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

He CHOOSES to be no respecter of persons - Acts 10:34.
He CHOOSES to be light with no darkness in Him at all - 1 John 1:5
He CHOOSES to be righteous in all His ways Psalm - 145:17
He CHOOSES to be a Lamb to the slaughter - Isa 53:7
He CHOOSES to perform the greatest possible act of love for us John - 15:13
He CHOOSES to always explain His actions to His prophets who question Him - Gen 18:16-33, Exo 32.
He CHOOSES to give His human creation high intelligence - Heb 2:7
He CHOOSES to give His human creation the ability to know good and evil - Gen 3:22
He CHOOSES to give His human creation the ability to judge all things - 1 Cor 2:15, 1 Cor 6:3
He CHOOSES to punish the wicked in the presence of all the angels (nothing hidden) - Rev 14:10

The entirety of scripture outside of Rom 9:21 TELLS us what in fact God DOES decide to do. One cannot teach that God chooses to be partial and allow a single verse (Rom 9:21) or word (omniscient) to define the A-Z of His character. All the evidence points to God somehow 'limiting' His omniscience to uphold being good. Being as ''GOOD'' as He is ''GREAT''.

When people say ''God HARDENS'' so and so's heart. There is always a lot of context that needs to be considered. For example with Pharaoh. If God did not send ten plagues increasing in severity upon him, perhaps it would appear odd for God to harden His heart. But ten plagues increasing in severity ARE mentioned. So when one considers all, it seems that God does ''GIVE UP'' on the wicked at a certain point in time. We see this very clearly with the Amorites. The Jews begged God to annihilate them and God said NO, their sin is NOT YET FULL MEASURE Gen 15:16.

A Christian has ONE job and that is to properly represent God to the lost. @Charlie24 hit the nail on the head in post # 3. Imagine standing before God and being guilty of misrepresenting Him as partial to the lost that He clearly loves and died for.

 

[KingJ]

The following verses are used to support predestination and Calvinism. I personally am a free-will believer, and I believe you make the choice to be saved or not.
I believe God gives us the free-will to choose. Some then how do we reconcile these verses.

Acts 4:28; to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1Cor 2:7; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Eph 1:5; He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:11; also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

along the same lines...

Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

To the Calvinist way of interpreting these verses, God chose some people to be saved, and others not be saved. God picked who would be saved before the Earth was even created,
and you have no say in it at all. If you're saved, it's because God "predestined" you to be saved. If you're not, it's because God predestined you not to be.

I do have to admit, I believe it can be a little of both. I think there are certain things God causes to happen. Judas Iscariot was prophesied hundreds of years before he betrayed Jesus.
But I believe, at the end of the day, it was Judas's choice to betray Jesus. So then, did God cause Judas to sin, or did He know in advance that Judas would choose to sin?

In extreme Calvinism, the thought is God is in control. In fact, He is so much in control over everything, and every action that a person does, that even when they sin... God made them sin.
There are even some large denominations that believe this. To take this a little further, on judgment day, God won't really judge the un-saved, because there is nothing to judge.
He made them choose to sin, and He made them choose to never be saved. People can stand before God on the judgment day and say I never get saved, because you predestined me
not to be. It's your fault God, not mine!

But let's go worst case here, and talk about all the verses that say "predestined" in them at the beginning of this post. Depending on how Arminian ( non-Calvinist ) your view is, you might
say "OK, God predestined these people to be saved"... "but there is nothing in these verses that says God predestined them to 'stay' saved after they were saved".

At the end of the day Calvinism is mostly about "free-choice" or more correctly, the lack of it. Irresistible grace says you can't refuse to be saved if God picks you.
Preservation of the saints says once you get saved, you can't get unsaved, even if you wanted to. But again, if you follow this line of thinking... God can let some people "think" they are saved,
and God can let some people be deceived, at least for a little while.

2Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

There are some verses in the Bible that say if you reject God enough times, He will finally say.. "fine". He will give you what you want.

Rom 1:24; Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

I feel you are addressing more issues here then merely 'predestination'.

Predestination is not a bad thing. It is true that mankind was predestined to be 'in Christ'.

What is evil is 'limited atonement'. When used with predestination your truth is '''God destined only a certain number of people to be in Christ''.

Scripture is crystal clear that God wills all to be saved. 1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So now, Calvinists need to understand that if God wills all to be saved and all are not saved, does that not clearly speak to true free will?

This is why 4 point Calvinists are fine. They drop the L in TULIP.

 

[Curtis]

Was Jesus predestined to be the savior of the world?

Did Jesus have a free will choice to be the savior of the world?