Predestination

[KingJ]

Thanks @Brightfame52 for doing a stellar job at not defending five point Calvinism! Clever tactic indeed. It took me while .

 

[KingJ]

I have not once stated God is partial

Yes you have.

You have shown that 1. you don't know what it means and 2. you don't want to know.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes you have.

You have shown that 1. you don't know what it means and 2. you don't want to know.

False accusation

 

[KingJ]

False accusation

100% true. Instead of merely stating ''false accusation'', prove how it is false.

For the last time, I will re-type it.

Partiality is evil. God is no respecter of persons. Impartiality = no respecter of persons = Acts 10:34.

Since God is the Creator of all, making some for heaven and some for hell is 100% partiality. On par with giving one child a candy bar and another a brick to the head.

Now, let's hear you bat for what I believe is the sickest belief strand in Christianity, five-point Calvinism.

Brightfame52 floor is yours, go.....

 

[Brightfame52]

100% true. Instead of merely stating ''false accusation'', prove how it is false.

For the last time, I will re-type it.

Partiality is evil. God is no respecter of persons. Impartiality = no respecter of persons = Acts 10:34.

Since God is the Creator of all, making some for heaven and some for hell is 100% partiality. On par with giving one child a candy bar and another a brick to the head.

Now, let's hear you bat for what I believe is the sickest belief strand in Christianity, five-point Calvinism.

Brightfame52 floor is yours, go.....

No false accusation, you never proved the false accusation in the first place. You cant just go around making false accusations without proof, then demand for someone to prove its not an false accusation.

 

[Butch5]

There is a thread that is currently active here on TalkJesus right now. Called "Limited atonement". The entire premise of this thread is that there is no free-will.
God picks some people to be saved, and others not to be saved, and you have no say in your own personal salvation.

OSAS "Once saved, always saved". Always leads back to no free will.
The argument goes something like, God wouldn't let someone be saved if He knew they were going to get un-saved later. So, then we are back to predestination.

But God doesn't stop anyone from being saved who wants to be.

Hi B-A-C , There is a misnomer concerning Predestination. Look at the passages. Do any of them say anything about being saved? They don't. People have read that into the passages. The doctrine of Predestination is about Israel. In Romans 8 Paul says, 'they are not all Israel who are of Israel.' In other words, he's telling the Jews that not all of the descendent of Jacob are the Israel of God. That would be a major shock to a Jew. They'd grown up their whole live believing they were the promised seed. Then here comes Paul telling them that only those who follow Christ are considered Israel or the promised seed. Then in chapter 11 Paul explains how Gentiles are grafted into the wild olive Tree. The Israel of God is the wild olive tree.

So, I agree with you that man definitely has free will. The whole predestination doctrine is misplaced when applied to salvation. It is Israel, or a part of Israel that is predestined and the members of that group choose to be there.

 

[th1bill]

The following verses are used to support predestination and Calvinism. I personally am a free-will believer, and I believe you make the choice to be saved or not.
I believe God gives us the free-will to choose. Some then how do we reconcile these verses.

Acts 4:28; to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
1Cor 2:7; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
Eph 1:5; He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:11; also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

along the same lines...

Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

To the Calvinist way of interpreting these verses, God chose some people to be saved, and others not be saved. God picked who would be saved before the Earth was even created,
and you have no say in it at all. If you're saved, it's because God "predestined" you to be saved. If you're not, it's because God predestined you not to be.

I do have to admit, I believe it can be a little of both. I think there are certain things God causes to happen. Judas Iscariot was prophesied hundreds of years before he betrayed Jesus.
But I believe, at the end of the day, it was Judas's choice to betray Jesus. So then, did God cause Judas to sin, or did He know in advance that Judas would choose to sin?

In extreme Calvinism, the thought is God is in control. In fact, He is so much in control over everything, and every action that a person does, that even when they sin... God made them sin.
There are even some large denominations that believe this. To take this a little further, on judgment day, God won't really judge the un-saved, because there is nothing to judge.
He made them choose to sin, and He made them choose to never be saved. People can stand before God on the judgment day and say I never get saved, because you predestined me
not to be. It's your fault God, not mine!

But let's go worst case here, and talk about all the verses that say "predestined" in them at the beginning of this post. Depending on how Arminian ( non-Calvinist ) your view is, you might
say "OK, God predestined these people to be saved"... "but there is nothing in these verses that says God predestined them to 'stay' saved after they were saved".

At the end of the day Calvinism is mostly about "free-choice" or more correctly, the lack of it. Irresistible grace says you can't refuse to be saved if God picks you.
Preservation of the saints says once you get saved, you can't get unsaved, even if you wanted to. But again, if you follow this line of thinking... God can let some people "think" they are saved,
and God can let some people be deceived, at least for a little while.

2Thes 2:11; For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Thes 2:12; in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

There are some verses in the Bible that say if you reject God enough times, He will finally say.. "fine". He will give you what you want.

Rom 1:24; Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28; And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

Four Parts of Romans 8:29​

​

Our aim in this lesson is to understand four parts of Romans 8:29.

1. The connection with verse 28.
   "FOR whom he foreknew . . . "
2. The meaning of God's foreknowledge.
   "For whom he FOREKNEW, he also predestined . . . "
3. The aim of predestination for our good.
   " . . . to become conformed to the image of his Son . . . "
4. The aim of predestination for Christ's glory.
   " . . . that he might be the first-born among many brethren."

Some things we learn about Yehovah from the Self-Revealing Scriptures are of His existence outside of the Tome/Space Continuum. From the past 35 years of study, led by Ruah, the Holy Sprit, I now understand Predestination.

God knows the beginning from the end but how is that explained? Existing outside the Time/Space Continuum we live in, Yehovah knew more than 6,000 years ago that on 1/1/'90, Bill Tayor would sing in the New Year, only to leave unpaid to serve Him from that day forward.

Knowing my predetermination Yahovah predestined my Salvation.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13 NKJV

I'm interested in how you all perceive these two verses in relation to the topic of this thread.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

No false accusation, you never proved the false accusation in the first place. You cant just go around making false accusations without proof, then demand for someone to prove its not an false accusation.

This is a dodge, 'you' stated 'false accusation' and I was the one who asked you to prove it. This chat is insane. At least all readers can see you dodging. It's probably your best play as 5 point Calvinism is really impossible to defend.

 

[Brightfame52]

This is a dodge, 'you' stated 'false accusation' and I was the one who asked you to prove it. This chat is insane. At least all readers can see you dodging. It's probably your best play as 5 point Calvinism is really impossible to defend.

You cant just go around making false accusations without proof, then demand for someone to prove its not an false accusation. Thats madness

 

[KingJ]

You cant just go around making false accusations without proof, then demand for someone to prove its not an false accusation. Thats madness

ANSWER post # 44. Prove the statement made is false. This is not hard.......

 

[Brightfame52]

ANSWER post # 44. Prove the statement made is false. This is not hard.......

Again,

You cant just go around making false accusations without proof, then demand for someone to prove its not an false accusation. Thats madness

 

[KingJ]

Again,

You cant just go around making false accusations

It's not a false accusation, you have stated that only the specially selected 'elect' are chosen to be forgiven of their sins.

without proof,

Five Points of Calvinism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This link / your belief clearly states that God is partial / a respecter of persons.

then demand for someone to prove its not an false accusation. Thats madness

You are evading. You can A. Correct or B. Justify but instead you C. Evade

This is a discussion forum not a message board. I am glad the reader gets to see how evasive a Calvinist is. I would be too if I believed as you did. Your posts make sense. Keep up the good work at not batting for a sick belief.

 

[rstrats]

That's the reality for the majority of people.

I just can't comprehend why someone with all of their mental faculties intact, if it were possible for them to do so, not repent if they believed - i.e. were convinced that not to do so - would end them up being tortured 24/7 for eternity.

 

[KingJ]

I just can't comprehend why someone with all of their mental faculties intact, if it were possible for them to do so, not repent if they believed - i.e. were convinced that not to do so - would end them up being tortured 24/7 for eternity.

Free will is so real and God so good that all instinctively know that there is a lot more to hell. All who espouse torture 24/7 are misrepresenting God and scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

It's not a false accusation, you have stated that only the specially selected 'elect' are chosen to be forgiven of their sins.

Five Points of Calvinism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This link / your belief clearly states that God is partial / a respecter of persons.



You are evading. You can A. Correct or B. Justify but instead you C. Evade

This is a discussion forum not a message board. I am glad the reader gets to see how evasive a Calvinist is. I would be too if I believed as you did. Your posts make sense. Keep up the good work at not batting for a sick belief.

You made a false accusation, you not talking about anything I stated/posted