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Premise on Joseph/ Jesus relation

Reference Post # 60

Reference Post #59

Your Response:
I started on the article but unsurprisingly I could tell immediately it was pushing a point a point of view by selectively leaving out a possible alternative. The Strong's H5959 is what I'm talking about. In my previous post, I showed you an excerpt from Strong's on H5959, and received no reply from you but now this link.
My Response:
Fair enough though i don't think i have called you out much of your own selectivness. Here is my reply;
The root word or counterpart of Almah is Elem H5958 which means young man. Not a virgin but a young man.
Alma is feminine and Elem is it's masculine counterpart. Once again Elem means young man.

ELEM H5958

ALMAH H5959

If you selectively believe it is leaving out a possible alternative then what is the understanding?

Why is it narrated in Gen 24:16 that Rachel was a Betulah when Eliezer met her?
Then 27 verses later why does Eliezer refer to Rachel as an Almah when speaking to Rachel's father?
What is the context of all of this since the site is biased?

Gen 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin Betulah H1330, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

compared to

Gen 24:43 Behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass, that when the virgin Almah H5959 cometh forth to draw water, and I say to her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water of thy pitcher to drink;

On your opening statement on this post: LOL I’m only following your lead Ivar Post #36. :-)

Understanding the root word coming from H5958 shows exactly as you say, still doesn’t explain or maybe it does but is yet undefined why H5959 mentions Virgin. Meaning, you still have not addressed, or can even bring yourself to repeat that Strong’s H5959 includes it in its definition.

Note: Looking at Genesis 24:16 you don’t wonder how the writer knew that this girl was a virgin, when she was yada? Just curious. :-)

By the way did you ever look up my suggestion to see how “tense” might affect the word usage of Almah vs Betulah? In particular the two verses you have quoted back at me Gen 24:16 & v43, which I brought up in post #53? The first person, third person and you can toss in there the second person as well. It’s quite possible that the perspective is what has changed and so the writer determined the usage of the word Almah in one place while in another Betulah was valid to use since both signify virgin. :-)

We can look at Genesis 24:16 and we see this is written in the third person, while Genesis 24:43 is in the first person. This must also be taken into consideration contextually of what we are reading and how words were used within the writings we now handle. This is used in English, so I don’t know how it might have looked in the original language or even if they used this as part of their grammar in ancient days. All I can do is work within the English language I do know, and the definitions provided in the knowledgeable source books from writers who do.

At times we can take this for granted in our reading, because unless you happen to be an English major, you would not necessarily look at the sentence structure in this fashion unless you were the writer or editor. I know I don’t, at least not until the Spirit moved me to do so the other day (post #53).

You may believe that I’m grasping at straws here, but I do not. This is just another consideration that hasn’t as yet been looked at, which is similar to Virgin being found in H5959. :-)

Question #1 ;

How did the Holy Spirit get around this law?

Proverbs 6:29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.

Is this for Men only?
Are the sons of God and Holy Spirit be exempt from this?

So, dear Ivar. Do we, humanity, know the full extent of the Natural Law that God works within, and if so are we able to determine what He can be exempted from? I don’t think so, and I’m sure neither do you. Why? Because to acknowledge otherwise is to place God in a box of our own creation which causes us to ignore the full extent of God’s Power to effectually work within the Natural Law. I can show this by using only one word and this is “Miracles”. It is only the presumptuousness of man that disregards them and fails to see the possibilities of the Natural Law in the hands of its Creator. I won’t quote scripture to you, because you know them and have quoted them to others.

Just remember that Iron sharpens Iron goes on all sides or only one side gets sharpened.

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Love of Christ Immanuel

Ivar[/QUOTE]

Love you too Ivar.
In the name of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
 
Reference Post # 61
@Christ4Ever

Your Response:

On your opening statement on this post: LOL I’m only following your lead Ivar Post #36. :smile:

My Response:

Conveniently you seem to go back over 20 posts but that is fine because I am consistent :shades:
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Your Response:

At times we can take this for granted in our reading, because unless you happen to be an English major, you would not necessarily look at the sentence structure in this fashion unless you were the writer or editor. I know I don’t, at least not until the Spirit moved me to do so the other day (post #53).

My Response:
If it helps or matters I am currently in my second and final level of English ENC1102. Not in a English Major but I do study the sentence structure.
That is why I was able to call you out on a few things that you yourself have not brought up again. :grin:
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Your Response :
Looking at Genesis 24:16 you don’t wonder how the writer knew that this girl was a virgin, when she was yada? Just curious. :smile:

My Response:
Moses thru the Holy Spirit was narrating Genesis and in Gen 24:16; The Spirit of truth knew

Genesis 24:43 was the first person words of Eliezer; Who did not at the time know or not know.
Genesis 24:14 was also the first person word of Eliezer insert wink here " " insert wink here " "
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Your Response:

Understanding the root word coming from H5958 shows exactly as you say, still doesn’t explain or maybe it does but is yet undefined why H5959 mentions Virgin. Meaning, you still have not addressed, or can even bring yourself to repeat that Strong’s H5959 includes it in its definition.

My Response:
I have enough discernment to know that even if i try to explain it better; you will reject my words or say I am being selective. My address would not be or will never be good enough for you. Is all good though.:smile:

1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Also you yourself have not addressed the fact that it is possible and common for a virgin to get knocked up or conceive a child by the seed of Male Adam. This union would not contradict one being conceived of the Holy Ghost
Quite common with teenage pregnancies who also just happens to be an almah or of marriageable age according to the Hebrew culture.
Dare I say pregnant teenagers can be young women, damsels and maidens as well.
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Question #1 ;
How did the Holy Spirit get around this law?

Proverbs 6:29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.

Is this for Men only?
Are the sons of God and Holy Spirit be exempt from this?

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Question #2 "three parts"
What is the greek meaning of seed?
Which Adam does the seed of David come from?
What is according to the Flesh?

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
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Question #3
Which bible do you believe to be the most accurate English translation and what is your understanding of Heb 2:17?

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. KJV

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. ESV

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. NIV

Hebrews 2:17 So He had to be made like His brothers in every way, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people. "contains more bible references of Hebrews 2:17"
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Question #4
Since you say Joseph is not the father ; what other type of flesh is a little lower than the angels?

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
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Love of Christ Immanuel

Ivar
 
Last edited:
@Christ4Ever

Statistics "KJV Old Testament"

Almah H5959, Betulah H1330 & Elem H5958 used 59 times combined in OT KJV

Elem used 2/59 = roughly 3% ; Almah used 7/59 times = roughly 12% ; Betulah used 50/59 times = roughly 85% ; = 100%
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Elem specifically as young male used 2/59 = 3.4%
Almah specifically as young female used 3/59= 5.1%
Almah specifically as virgin female used 4/59= roughly 6.8%
Betuah specifically as unmarried female 12/59 = roughly 20.3% "also unmarried female chaste/virgin in accordance to Hebrew Tradition/Culture"
Betulah specifically as virgin female used 38/59= roughly 64.4%
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Elem Sources:
ELEM blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon
Definition of STRIPLING
Definition of YOUNG MAN
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Almah Sources:
ALMAH blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon
Definition of VIRGIN "used 4 times"
Definition of MAID
Definition of DAMSEL
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Betulah Sources:
Betulah blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon
Definition of VIRGIN "used 38 times"
Definition of MAID
Definition of MAIDEN
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Betulah could be used interchangeably with Alma and vice versa however:
Betulah emphasizes an unmarried woman or a woman of chastity; While
Alma emphasizes a woman of her youth.
Elem emphasizes a man of his youth.
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Betulah used specifically as virgin 38/42 = 90%
Almah used specifically as virgin 4/42 = 10% "and that's rounded"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this type of evidence and sources sufficient for you also don't forget questions of my last post.:grin:
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Love of Christ Immanuel

Ivar
 
Reference post # 62 & 63

@Christ4Ever

Statistics "KJV Old Testament"

Almah H5959, Betulah H1330 & Elem H5958 used 59 times combined in OT KJV

Elem used 2/59 = roughly 3% ; Almah used 7/59 times = roughly 12% ; Betulah used 50/59 times = roughly 85% ; = 100%
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Elem specifically as young male used 2/59 = 3.4%
Almah specifically as young female used 3/59= 5.1%
Almah specifically as virgin female used 4/59= roughly 6.8%
Betuah specifically as unmarried female 12/59 = roughly 20.3% "also unmarried female chaste/virgin in accordance to Hebrew Tradition/Culture"
Betulah specifically as virgin female used 38/59= roughly 64.4%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elem Sources:
ELEM blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon
Definition of STRIPLING
Definition of YOUNG MAN
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Almah Sources:
ALMAH blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon
Definition of VIRGIN "used 4 times"
Definition of MAID
Definition of DAMSEL
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Betulah Sources:
Betulah blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon
Definition of VIRGIN "used 38 times"
Definition of MAID
Definition of MAIDEN
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Betulah could be used interchangeably with Alma and vice versa however:
Betulah emphasizes an unmarried woman or a woman of chastity; While
Alma emphasizes a woman of her youth.
Elem emphasizes a man of his youth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Betulah used specifically as virgin 38/42 = 90%
Almah used specifically as virgin 4/42 = 10% "and that's rounded"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this type of evidence and sources sufficient for you also don't forget questions of my last post.

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Love of Christ Immanuel
Ivar

Hello Ivar!

I have enough discernment to know that even if i try to explain it better; you will reject my words or say I am being selective. My address would not be or will never be good enough for you. Is all good though.:smile:
Reference Post # 61
@Christ4Ever
Your Response:
On your opening statement on this post: LOL I’m only following your lead Ivar Post #36. :smile:
My Response:
Conveniently you seem to go back over 20 posts but that is fine because I am consistent :shades:

You really need to hone your communications skills a bit more. Your IPC skills are lacking. :smile:
Only with Love Bro, only with Love. :love:

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I notice you said that Almah “emphasizes a woman of youth”. Is it so hard to say that it includes “virgin” as well??? :smile: (H5959)

I also notice you said that Elem “emphasizes a man of his youth”. (H5958)

The Spirit told me to look into something while I was driving back from breakfast this morning with my dear awesome wife. Sorry, have to give a shout out to her! Thank-you Lord! Oh, you must also realize that this insight provided was before I read this post of yours!!! I was notified that you had posted it, but I didn’t want to read it and have it take away from my breakfast with my dearest wife!! I don’t know if you can relate, but maybe one day you will! Lord willing.

Do you know why “Virgin” was included in H5959 and not H5958 and possibly why 2 separate ones were needed where one would have sufficed? I'm letting you know now that I don’t have any more information on this than what the Spirit moved me to look at. I mean it could be as simple as feminine/masculine, but I think not though I don't exclude the possibility. However, this doesn't mean that I have some in depth knowledge of why the Strong’s compilers did what they did. But you’ll appreciate it.

However, I’m not going to tell you at the moment :crying: :smile: I want to see if you can objectively look at this while looking at the other word you are familiar with “Betulah”. That was the hint to the answer.

God is so awesome brother!!!! Allleuia!!! I say this not in so much that it proves either position as being correct, but that the depth of His word is such, that one lifetime, at least the way I study would be enough to understand it all, and must give Him the Praise, Honor, and Glory for all things!!!!

Love your fun facts on the percentages! Don’t mean much to me, but I love them anyway! Thanks for taking the time in coming up with them and sharing!!! Bless you.

On to the questions you believe I’m ignoring (Eyes looking to the top of my own forehead.). :smile:

Question 1: I believe I answered question one in my last response to you. I’ll repeat my answer here for you only because I myself posed a question to you as well. I’ll clean it up a bit and start with that first so that there is no confusion.

Question: How are we able to determine if the Holy Spirit is being exempted from the Natural Law, if we don’t know what the full extent of the Natural Law is?

So, dear Ivar. Do we, humanity, know the full extent of the Natural Law that God works within, and if so are we able to determine what He can be exempted from? I don’t think so, and I’m sure neither do you. Why? Because to acknowledge otherwise is to place God in a box of our own creation which causes us to ignore the full extent of God’s Power to effectually work within the Natural Law. I can show this by using only one word and this is “Miracles”. It is only the presumptuousness of man that disregards them and fails to see the possibilities of the Natural Law in the hands of its Creator. I won’t quote scripture to you, because you know them and have quoted them to others.

Just remember that Iron sharpens Iron goes on all sides or only one side gets sharpened.

Question 2: I’m not going over what has already been discussed as it pertains to the meaning of “flesh”, “seed” unless new ground is being opened on it.

Question 3: If you recall the power of God discussion and point I’ve made previously concerning it. The position I held before as it pertains to like etc. has not changed. As far as what translation I’ve used in this discussion so far, KJV.

Question 4: Not much different than question 2.

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Always comes down to the Power of God to do what we call Miracles within the Natural Law that is so far unknown to us!!! That's why they are called Miracles. :-) I know that is probably unacceptable to you, because of….oh, I don’t know…you might be able to answer that. But I’m sure you know what I mean even though you do find it unacceptable as an answer.

That is why my position to date has not changed. I realize that attempting to include or acknowledge this as part of your computations, would probably be a nightmare, however it is needed. Because without Him being included you’ll never know, what you don’t know.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
 
Reference Post #64

@Christ4Ever

Your Response:

You really need to hone your communications skills a bit more. Your IPC skills are lacking. :smile:
Only with Love Bro, only with Love. :love:


My Response:
I neither agree nor disagree. Subjective
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Your Response
I notice you said that Almah “emphasizes a woman of youth”. Is it so hard to say that it includes “virgin” as well??? :smile: (H5959)
I also notice you said that Elem “emphasizes a man of his youth”. (H5958)
Love your fun facts on the percentages! Don’t mean much to me, but I love them anyway! Thanks for taking the time in coming up with them and sharing!!! Bless you.


My Response;
Definition of STATISTICS
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Your Response

Question 1: I believe I answered question one in my last response to you. I’ll repeat my answer here for you only because I myself posed a question to you as well. I’ll clean it up a bit and start with that first so that there is no confusion.

Question: How are we able to determine if the Holy Spirit is being exempted from the Natural Law, if we don’t know what the full extent of the Natural Law is?


My Response:
Knows not the full extent of the law or volume of the book yet knows Joseph is not the father!!!

Proverbs 6:29 So he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.

Definition of WHOEVER
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1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Love of Christ Immanuel

Ivar
 
Reference post # 65

Hello Ivar!

My Response:
Knows not the full extent of the law or volume of the book yet knows Joseph is not the father!!!

That statement above is assuming we (humanity), know, the completeness of the Natural Law. I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is handicapped as we are in the fullness of knowledge department. :-)

So, since I'm still left hanging to my question. I'll repeat yours and mine, with an additional couple of notes.

Question #1 ;
How did the Holy Spirit get around this law?

Question: How are we able to determine if the Holy Spirit is being exempted from the Natural Law, if we don’t know what the full extent of the Natural Law is?

Added clarification for you Ivar, in case you misunderstand what I am asking you by my question. You made an assumption in your question that it was necessary for the Holy Spirit to get around the Natural Law, which we (humanity) know only partially in order for Him to do what He did. Just because I don't know how He accomplished, (not get around), within the Natural Law, doesn't mean it didn't happen within the natural boundaries of it. I believe I've mentioned this a couple of times before. That is why we call them Miracles. Still, just because of our lack of knowledge at this time, it doesn't mean that the "How" forever will remain unknown to us. So, saying this also means that not having Joseph as the progenitor and only as loco parentis, is possible when we understand and believe that God is the originator of the act.

I think I was missing something or are you praying on it? I say this because you left something out of my response in replying to me. H5959/H5858 You know the question with a hint?

I probably won't be responding tonight to any postings on this thread, due to going off to Church!!! Also, I'm back to work tomorrow after taking three weeks off to take care of my wife which gave me time to engage joyfully in these exchanges with you. I have to give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar, if you know what I mean! :-)

With all that being said, I Love you man and it has truly been enjoyable!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
 
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
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John 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
John 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

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Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luke 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
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John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Definition of KNOW
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Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Definition of SAME
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Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Definition of BEHOOVE
Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
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Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
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Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
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Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Definition of ACCORDING TO
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
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Reference post # 67

Hello Ivar,

Good scripture you have used.
By this post am I to assume you're not going to answer my questions?

It was a good class at church!! A blessing for sure.
I hope you have a blessed night as well.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
 
Quite simple The Holy Spirit get's around no law. The Holy Spirit does the will of the Father which also encompasses his law. The Holy Spirit agrees in one with the Heavenly Father; As does the Son.
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However you imply that by me asking you that question I am somehow implying that the Holy Spirit is Handicapped. You also ask me if we know the full extent of the completeness of the natural law when the law or scriptures speak for itself.
With you it is anything for Joseph not to be the Father according to the flesh.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
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There is no question relating to the main topic of this post; that you can ask that I have not already answered with scripture. Even within the verses of my last response was the answer to your question if looked closely enough.
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Love of Christ Immanuel
Ivar
 
You also implied much earlier that I am limiting the father when I said he is good and that he bounds himself to his own word which represents his integrity, honour, righteousness, faithfulness, etc.

You also seem to perceive that Joseph being the father according to the flesh handicaps him as well. Yet with Mary there is no impediment.

I believe I have gotten to the root of the matter. I have nothing else to add besides reposting that which I have already posted.

Thank you for the dialogue.
 
Quite simple The Holy Spirit get's around no law. The Holy Spirit does the will of the Father which also encompasses his law. The Holy Spirit agrees in one with the Heavenly Father; As does the Son.
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However you imply that by me asking you that question I am somehow implying that the Holy Spirit is Handicapped. You also ask me if we know the full extent of the completeness of the natural law when the law or scriptures speak for itself.
With you it is anything for Joseph not to be the Father according to the flesh.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
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There is no question relating to the main topic of this post; that you can ask that I have not already answered with scripture. Even within the verses of my last response was the answer to your question if looked closely enough.
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Love of Christ Immanuel
Ivar
Reference post # 69

Hello Ivar,
It appears sadly, that you are so consumed by the position you hold that you are unable to acknowledge even humanities lack of knowing for the possibility it might derail what you believe to be true. No, you are wrong that I am trying to get you to admit that the Holy Spirit is Handicapped, rather quite the opposite. That with our Almighty God all things are possible!

I would love to stay and continue this, but work calls and I must not be late!!

With the Love of Christ Jesus Ivar.
Nick
<><


P.S. I hope you realize the Scripture you at times say to others in an attempt to convict, also apply to you too? Love you Ivar! Have a great day. God bless.
 
Further Proof
H1331= beth-oo-leem'; masculine plural of the same as H1330; (collectively and abstractly) virginity; by implication and concretely, the tokens of it
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1331

H5959 = ʻalmâh, al-maw'; feminine of H5958; a lass (as veiled or private):—damsel, maid, virgin.
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h5959

Fact: Almah is not virginity by implication and concretely.
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Compare Isaiah 7:14 to following scriptures; Emphasis on Deu 22:17 and don't forget to consider 1Co 14:33


Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin H5959 shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

COMPARED TO:
beth-oo-leem Maid
2/10 "20%" ; beth-oo-leem Virginity 8/10 "80%" = 100%

Lev 21:13 And he shall take a wife in her virginity H1331.

Deu 22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid H1331:

Deu 22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity H1331 unto the elders of the city in the gate:

Deu 22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid H1331; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity H1331. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. :shades:

Deu 22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity H1331 be not found for the damsel:

Jdg 11:37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity H1331, I and my fellows.

Jdg 11:38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity H1331 upon the mountains.

Eze 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity H1331.

Eze 23:8 Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity H1331, and poured their whoredom upon her.
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Conclusion:
Isaiah 7:14 verbally and phonetically cannot be used to justify that Joseph is not the father.
 
Individual Comparison
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Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin H5959 shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


Deu 22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid H1331; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity H1331. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

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In Isaiah 7:14 the emphasis is on a virgin in emphasis of a woman of her youth when researched.

In Deu 22:17 even if "and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity H1331. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. " was omitted. Based on the fact that the word used for maid is the masculine form of betulah which emphasizes "virginity; by implication and concretely, the tokens of it" ; we can clearly see that the maid has known no man and is immaculate in the context of chaste

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Conclusion:
Isaiah 7:14 verbally and phonetically cannot be used to justify that a female virgin of her virginity conceived a man child without a male because it was not stated.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
 
You also implied much earlier that I am limiting the father when I said he is good and that he bounds himself to his own word which represents his integrity, honour, righteousness, faithfulness, etc.

You also seem to perceive that Joseph being the father according to the flesh handicaps him as well. Yet with Mary there is no impediment.

I believe I have gotten to the root of the matter. I have nothing else to add besides reposting that which I have already posted.

Thank you for the dialogue.
Reference #70

Hello Ivar,

On you opening statement. You believe this because I don't agree with your interpretation of Scripture?
If that is so, then would I be justified in stating the same to you since you don't agree with how I see Scripture? Of course not! However, this would require us both to be seeking to grow in His Word and to know His Truth when uncolored by our preconceived notions of what that truth is.

Additionally, I hope you understand by making those type of statements, they further nothing for your position or your standing as it pertains to not only knowing the truth, but actually seeking to objectively find it within the format that we use here at Talk Jesus (point/counter point).

Now on your second comment which is very similar to the first. You are reading into my words that which is not there, and are doing this because you either lack understanding of them, which I doubt, or on purpose so as to not have to address the significance of them. However, I could be wrong in my analysis of your motivation for this and the former one would then apply, IMHO.

On your last comment......Well, since you don't have anything else to add. LOL
I'll thank you for not reposting, but something tells me that you won't be able to help yourself, which I notice you left the door opening to so do. :-)

A little more time and I'll take a look at the other two postings for something new.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
 
@Christ4Ever

#1 Yes you may be justified once it is the truth or is more accurate than my statement. The way the scriptures are written it seems that Joseph is not the father but when one truly studies the volume of the book it seems that not only is Joseph the father according to the flesh but he must be. You say pre conceived notions as if i myself did not believe that Joseph was not the father at some point. I've used scripture, highlighted scripture, defined words, used the strong concordance, and rudimentary concepts, and even went as far as to use numbers to show my position on why I no longer believe he is not the father. Other members do the same thing if not similar here in the bible chat forums when it comes to showing their point of view concerning scripture.

#2 Words are meant to be read into and studied and interpreted. If i said your words imply something then that is how it came off to me or how i discerned it. Like how i discerned that you seemed to be glorifying the woman by saying Joseph cannot be be the father because of sin but is ok for the woman to be the mother even when the transgression was counted with the woman. Or how I discerned you were taking John the baptist words out of context because his speech patterns indicated that he used animals and elements in nature to refer to people.

#3 I miss you to :smile: but I have still been adding stuff I simply haven't been addressing you solely but you are free to respond to anything i post.

#4 I don't mind the verbal jousting or banter but Joseph is still the father according to the flesh according to the volume of the book.

#5 Have you seen my post #72 & #73 :grin:

With the Love of Christ Immanuel
Ivar
 
@Christ4Ever

Prior to Christ when did this following scripture get fulfilled and what would it indicate?

Isaiah 7:14 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

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Also I do stand corrected to a certain extent because of

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

However/Fortunatlely my premise is not broken because of

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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Also have you seen my post #72 & #73 in this thread and are they strong enough for you in regards to my central premise?
-----------------------------------------------

Lastly I made some claims in this post What is Easter, and why do Christians celebrate this holiday? based of interpretation of scripture.
"crossed out because may or may not be relevant in regards to my central premise here"
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Currently i need to hit the college books now, but wanted to get this all out the way; Hope all is well with you.

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With the Love of Christ Immanuel
Ivar
 
@Christ4Ever

Prior to Christ when did this following scripture get fulfilled and what would it indicate?

Isaiah 7:14 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

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Also I do stand corrected to a certain extent because of

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

However/Fortunatlely my premise is not broken because of

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
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Also have you seen my post #72 & #73 in this thread and are they strong enough for you in regards to my central premise?
-----------------------------------------------

Lastly I made some claims in this post What is Easter, and why do Christians celebrate this holiday? based of interpretation of scripture.
"crossed out because may or may not be relevant in regards to my central premise here"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Currently i need to hit the college books now, but wanted to get this all out the way; Hope all is well with you.

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With the Love of Christ Immanuel
Ivar

Made mistake should be labeled verse 16 not verse 14 above.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
 
@Christ4Ever
concerning our prior custody case / battle; The Lord / Supreme Judge allowed certain scriptures to come to my attention

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
&
Genesis 1:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

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It has also been brought to my attention that despite

Matthew 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

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With this new found evidence not only is Joseph the father according to the flesh but Joseph should not have to pay any child support arrears or return Dowry / Bride Price to Heli

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@Christ4Ever
My question to you; Should we

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
or do you have possible objection???
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Lastly my warning out of consideration humor "to rub it in" is that concerning the schoolmaster; In regards to the birth of Christ "I have the high ground" but i never failed you.:shades:
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With the Love of Immanuel
Ivar
 
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

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Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
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Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

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Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
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John 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

John 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
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Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears

Luke 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
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John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
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Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
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Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
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Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
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Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
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Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
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Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Genesis 1:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
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1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
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Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
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Wisdom of Solomon Chapter 7 "Apocrypha"
1 I myself also am a mortal man, like to all, and the offspring of him that was first made of the earth,

2 And in my mother's womb was fashioned to be flesh in the time of ten months, being compacted in blood, of the seed of man, and the pleasure that came with sleep.

3 And when I was born, I drew in the common air, and fell upon the earth, which is of like nature, and the first voice which I uttered was crying, as all others do.

4 I was nursed in swaddling clothes, and that with cares.

5 For there is no king that had any other beginning of birth.

6 For all men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.
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Curse of Jeconiah Mention
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Jeremiah 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

Matthew 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:

Jeremiah 22:28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
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2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

The Problem of the Curse on Jeconiah in Relation to the Genealogy of Jesus • Jews for Jesus https://jewsforjesus.org/answers/the-problem-of-the-curse-on-jeconiah-in-relation-to-the-genealogy-of-jesus-issues-prophecy/

What is the curse of Jeconiah? https://www.gotquestions.org/curse-of-Jeconiah.html

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H5959 comparison with H5958 comparison

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin H5959 shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

1Sa 20:22 But if I say thus unto the young man,H5958 Behold, the arrows are beyond thee; go thy way: for the LORD hath sent thee away.

(KJV) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h5959
al-maw'; feminine of H5958; a lass (as veiled or private): —damsel, maid, virgin.

(KJV) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h5958
eh'-lem; (compare H5959) properly, something kept out of sight, i.e. a lad —young man, stripling.

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H5959 comparison with H1331 comparison

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin H5959 shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Deu 22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid H1331; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity H1331. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

(KJV) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h5959
al-maw'; feminine of H5958; a lass (as veiled or private):—damsel, maid, virgin.


(KJV) https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h1331
(collectively and abstractly) virginity; by implication and concretely, the tokens of it:—× maid, virginity.

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Almah - Wikipedia
 
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. " Or The Book of the generation of Joseph"
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
 
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