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Proof Of Creation

Chad

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Proof Of Creation

article source: Answers in Genesis

In the ongoing war between creation and evolution, Christians are always looking for the strongest evidence for creation. They are looking for the “magic bullet” that will prove to their evolutionist friends that creation is true and evolution is false. This craving for evidence has led some Christians to be drawn to what we might call “flaky evidence.” Over the past several years, some so-called evidence for creation has been shown not to be reliable. Some of these are
  • supposed human and dinosaur footprints found together at the Paluxy River in Texas;
  • the small accumulation of moon dust found by the Apollo astronauts;
  • a boat-like structure in the Ararat region as evidence of Noah’s ark;
  • a supposed human handprint found in “dinosaur-age rock”;
  • a dead “plesiosaur” caught near New Zealand.
Most well-meaning, informed creationists would agree in principle that things which are not carefully documented and researched should not be used. But in practice, many of them are very quick to accept the sorts of facts mentioned here, without asking too many questions. They are less cautious than they might otherwise be, because they are so keen to have “our” facts/evidences to counter “theirs.” What they really don’t understand, however, is that it’s not a matter of “their facts vs. ours.” All facts are actually interpreted, and all scientists actually have the same observations—the same data—available to them.

Evidence

Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians, all have the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions; these are things that are assumed to be true without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. Allreasoning is based on presuppositions (also calledaxioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.

Past & Present

We all exist in the present, and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about—Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.—what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present. However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so that we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so that we could know for sure about past events.

Christians, of course, claim they do have, in a sense, a time machine. They have a book called the Bible, which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know. On the basis of these events (creation, the Fall, the Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the facts of the present.<SUP style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: 37%">1</SUP>

Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose (e.g., no God, or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the facts of the present.

present-key-past.gif


Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the facts, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on theirpresuppositions.

That’s why the argument often turns into something like:
“Can’t you see what I’m talking about?”
“No, I can’t. Don’t you see how wrong you are?”
“No, I’m not wrong. It’s obvious that I’m right.”
“No, it’s not obvious.”
And so on.

These two people are arguing about the same facts, but they are looking at the facts through different glasses.

It’s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the facts differently until he or she puts on a different set of glasses—which means to change one’s presuppositions.

A Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist’s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how he or she looks at facts. However, for a number of reasons, including spiritual ones, a non-Christian usually can’t put on the Christian’s glasses—unless he or she recognizes the presuppositional nature of the battle and is thus beginning to question his or her own presuppositions.

It is, of course, sometimes possible that just by presenting “evidence” one can convince a person that a particular scientific argument for creation makes sense on “the facts.” But usually, if that person then hears a different interpretation of the same facts that seems better than the first, that person will swing away from the first argument, thinking he or she has found “stronger facts.”

However, if that person had been helped to understand this issue of presuppositions, then he or she would have been better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions (i.e., starting beliefs).

Debate Terms

Often people who don’t believe the Bible will say that they aren’t interested in hearing about the Bible. They want real proof that there’s a God who created. They’ll listen to our claims about Christianity, but they want proof without mentioning the Bible.

If one agrees to a discussion without using the Bible as these people insist, then we have allowed them to set the terms of the debate. In essence these terms are

  • “Facts” are neutral. However, there are no such things as “brute facts”; all facts are interpreted. Once the Bible is eliminated from the argument, the Christians’ presuppositions are gone, leaving them unable to effectively give an alternate interpretation of the facts. Their opponents then have the upper hand as they still have their presuppositions.
  • Truth can/should be determined independently of God. However, the Bible states: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (<CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Psalm 111:10</CITE>); “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” (<CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Proverbs 1:7</CITE>); “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (<CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>1 Corinthians 2:14</CITE>).
0302.gif


A Christian cannot divorce the spiritual nature of the battle from the battle itself. A non-Christian is not neutral. The Bible makes this very clear: “The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters” (<CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Matthew 12:30</CITE>); “And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil” (<CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>John 3:19</CITE>).

Agreeing to such terms of debate also implicitly accepts the proposition that the Bible’s account of the universe’s history is irrelevant to understanding that history!

Ultimately, God's Word Convicts

First <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Peter 3:15</CITE> and other passages make it clear we are to use every argument we can to convince people of the truth, and <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>2 Corinthians 10:4–5</CITE> says we are to refute error (as Paul did in his ministry to the Gentiles). Nonetheless, we must never forget <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Hebrews 4:12</CITE>: “For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

revelation-key-past-present.gif


Also, <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Isaiah 55:11</CITE> says, “So shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.”

Practical Application

When someone says he wants “proof” or “evidence,” not the Bible, one might respond as follows:
You might not believe the Bible, but I do. And I believe it gives me the right basis to understand this universe and correctly interpret the facts around me. I’m going to give you some examples of how building my thinking on the Bible explains the world and is not contradicted by science.
One can, of course, do this with numerous scientific examples, showing, for example, how the issue of sin and judgment is relevant to geology and fossil evidence; how the fall of man, with the subsequent curse on creation, makes sense of the evidence of harmful mutations, violence, and death; or how the original “kinds” of animals gave rise to the wide variety of animals we see today.

Choose a topic and develop it:

For instance, the Bible states that God made distinct kinds of animals and plants. Let me show you what happens when I build my thinking on this presupposition. I will illustrate how processes such as natural selection, genetic drift, etc., can be explained and interpreted. You will see how the science of genetics makes sense based upon the Bible. Evolutionists believe in natural selection—that is real science, as you observe it happening. Well, creationists also believe in natural selection. Evolutionists accept the science of genetics—well, so do creationists.
However, here is the difference: evolutionists believe that, over millions of years, one kind of animal has changed into a totally different kind. However, creationists, based on the Bible’s account of origins, believe that God created separate kinds of animals and plants to reproduce their own kind; therefore, one kind will not turn into a totally different kind.
Now this can be tested in the present. The scientific observations support the creationist interpretation that the changes we see are not creating new information. The changes are all within the originally created pool of information of that kind—sorting, shuffling, or degrading it. The creationist account of history, based on the Bible, provides the correct basis to interpret the facts of the present; and real science confirms the interpretation.
After this detailed explanation, continue like this:
Now let me ask you to defend your position concerning these matters. Please show me howyour way of thinking, based on your beliefs, makes sense of the same evidence. And I want you to point out where my science and logic are wrong.
In arguing this way, a Christian is
  • using biblical presuppositions to build a way of thinking to interpret the evidence;
  • showing that the Bible and science go hand in hand;
  • challenging the presuppositions of the other person (many are unaware they have these);
  • forcing the debater to logically defend his position consistent with science and his own presuppositions (many will find that they cannot do this), and help this person realize they do have presuppositions that can be challenged;
  • honoring the Word of God that convicts the soul.
If Christians really understood that all facts are actually interpreted on the basis of certain presuppositions, we wouldn’t be in the least bit intimidated by the evolutionists’ supposed “evidence.” We should instead be looking at the evolutionists’ (or old-earthers’<SUP style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: 37%">2</SUP>) interpretationof the evidence, and how the same evidence could be interpreted within a biblical framework and confirmed by testable and repeatable science. If more creationists did this, they would be less likely to jump at flaky evidence that seems startling but in reality has been interpreted incorrectly in their rush to find the knockdown, drag-out convincing “evidence” against evolution that they think they desperately need.

The various age-dating methods are also subject to interpretation. All dating methods suffer, in principle, from the same limitations—whether they are used to support a young world or an old world. For instance, the public reads almost daily in newspapers and magazines that scientists have dated a particular rock at billions of years old. Most just accept this. However, creation scientists have learned to ask questions as to how this date was obtained—what method was used and what assumptions were accepted to develop this method? These scientists then question those assumptions (questions) to see whether they are valid and to determine whether the rock’s age could be interpreted differently. Then the results are published to help people understand that scientists have not proven that the rock is billions of years old and that the facts can be interpreted in a different way to support a young age.

Consider the research from the creationist group Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth (RATE) concerning the age of zircon crystals in granite.<SUP style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: 37%">3</SUP> Using one set of assumptions, these crystals could be interpreted to be around 1.5 billion years old, based on the amount of lead produced from the decay of uranium (which also produces helium). However, if one questions these assumptions, one is motivated to test them. Measurements of the rate at which helium is able to “leak out” of these crystals indicate that if they were much older than about 6,000 years, they would have nowhere near the amount of helium still left in them. Hence, the originally applied assumption of a constant decay rate is flawed; one must assume, instead, that there has been acceleration of the decay rate in the past. Using this revised assumption, the same uranium-lead data can now be interpreted to also give an age of fewer than 6,000 years.

Another example involves red blood cells and traces of hemoglobin that have been found in T. rexbones, although these should have long decomposed if they were millions of years old. Yet the reaction of the researchers was a perfect illustration of how evolutionary bias can result in trying to explain away hard facts to fit the preconceived framework of millions of years:

It was exactly like looking at a slice of modern bone. But, of course, I couldn’t believe it. I said to the lab technician: “The bones, after all, are 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?”<SUP style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: 37%">4</SUP>

Whenever you hear a news report that scientists have found another “missing link” or discovered a fossil “millions of years old,” try to think about the right questions that need to be asked to challenge the questions these scientists asked to get their interpretations!

All of this should be a lesson for us to take note of the situation when we read the newspaper—we are reading someone’s interpretation of the facts of world history—there very well could be a different way of looking at the same “facts.” One can see this in practice on television when comparing a news network that’s currently considered fairly liberal (CNN) with one that is more conservative (FOX)—one can often see the same “facts” interpreted differently!

The reason so many Christian professors (and Christian leaders in general) have rejected the literal creation position is that they have blindly accepted the interpretation of facts from the secular world, based on man’s fallible presuppositions about history. And they have then tried to reinterpret the Bible accordingly. If only they would start with the presupposition that God’s Word is true, they would find that they could then correctly interpret the facts of the present and show overwhelmingly that observational science repeatedly confirms such interpretations.

Don’t forget, as Christians we need to always build our thinking on the Word of the One who has the answers to all of the questions that could ever be asked—the infinite Creator God. He has revealed the true history of the universe in His Word to enable us to develop the right way of thinking about the present and thus determine the correct interpretations of the evidence of the present. We should follow <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Proverbs 1:7 and 9:10</CITE>, which teach that fear of the Lord is the beginning of true wisdom and knowledge.

Even though our human arguments may be powerful, ultimately it is God’s Word that convicts and opens people to the truth. In all of our arguments, we must not divorce what we are saying from the Word that convicts.

Bottom Line

The bottom line is that it’s not a matter of who has the better (or the most) “facts on their side.” We need to understand that there are no such things as brute facts—all facts are interpreted. The next time evolutionists use what seem to be convincing facts for evolution, try to determine the presuppositions they have used to interpret these facts. Then, beginning with the big picture of history from the Bible, look at the same facts through these biblical glasses and interpret them differently. Next, using the real science of the present that an evolutionist also uses, see if that science, when properly understood, confirms (by being consistent with) the interpretation based on the Bible. You will find over and over again that the Bible is confirmed by real science.

secular-biblical-history.jpg


But remember that, like Job, we need to understand that compared to God we know next to nothing (<CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Job 42:2–6</CITE>). We won’t have all the answers. However, so many answers have come to light now that a Christian can give a credible defense of the Book of Genesis and show it is the correct foundation for thinking about, and interpreting, every aspect of reality.

Therefore, let’s not jump in a blind-faith way at the startling facts we think we need to “prove” creation—trying to counter “their facts” with “our facts.” (Jesus himself rose from the dead in the most startling possible demonstration of the truth of God’s Word. But many still wouldn’t believe—see <CITE style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-WEIGHT: normal" class=bibleref>Luke 16:27–31</CITE>.) Instead, let’s not let apparent facts for evolution intimidate us, but let’s understand the right way to think about facts. We can then deal with the same facts the evolutionists use, to show they have the wrong framework of interpretation—and that the facts of the real world really do conform to, and confirm, the Bible. In this way we can do battle for a biblical worldview.

Remember, it’s no good convincing people to believe in creation, without also leading them to believe and trust in the Creator and Redeemer, Jesus Christ. God honors those who honor His Word. We need to use God-honoring ways of reaching people with the truth of what life is all about.

 
Just awesome!!

Brothers and sisters, before our Local atheist find this thread, remember what was posted here.


Remember, it’s no good convincing people to believe in creation, without also leading them to believe and trust in the Creator and Redeemer, Jesus Christ. God honors those who honor His Word. We need to use God-honoring ways of reaching people with the truth of what life is all about.

I am saving this page to my computer...

Jesus Is Lord.
 
Looking the wrong way

The evolutionist's problem is the same as that of the blind man, who is looking for a black cat in a dark room.
He keeps on getting hold of things which are 'interesting' but which only turn out to be wrong. If anyone without preconceived ideas starts to read in the Bible, the only book that talks about the beginning starting from before the beginning, not in nonsensical stories, but giving the only scientifically possible sequence of events, such a man has to accept Creation. It all makes sense. Then God gave man a day of rest by taking one for himself.
God did not retire after the work of Creation Jesus said," My Father is always working."
Evolution is God at work in His Creation.
The problem is not that a thinking man cannot grasp this. The problem is that by accepting God as Creator they would have to obey the Creator.If they could understand the 'how' they would be like God, (Satan's false promise) and the beginning of separation between the Creator and His Creation. Josef
 
All right, the local atheist has found this thread :p

So, while I strongly disagree with a lot that has been said in this thread, I accept the method with which you wish to direct the conversations, ie discussion of the assumptions behind the interpretation of facts.

Allow me to start with a few assumptions:

1) Facts exist independently of man. Whether a man sees a rock or not does not affect the existence of said rock. I'm sure we'll both agree on this.

2) Ergo, the fact of the existence of the rock can be verified by other people. People can go at any time to look at that rock, because no matter what other people say, the rock either exists or it does not.

3) What people say and measure is not 100% accurate. We cannot take on blind faith everything everyone says without at least some measure of confirmation. If some say that the rock exists, and others say the rock doesn't exist, all other things being equal, it is more likely that the greater number of people are correct. So if 85 people say the rock does exist and 15 that it doesn't, we can assume they are right. However, since the rock is still there (or not) at any time anyone can drive to the rock and have a look at it for themselves, meaning that a general consensus is not what determines what is true or not.

I think thus far, we are both in agreement. I will posit one more assumption, and wait for your reply. I am looking forward to our discussion Chad. I do not want to say "I am right, you are wrong", I am not as interested in what you say so much as the way you say it and why you say what you say. Essentially, I am interesting on how you came to build your 'Bible glasses' to look at evidence, because I have no idea how you built them and what you see through them.

So my last assumption is this:
Things don't suddenly change for no reason. If you see rocks falling down from mountains, and you see it over and over and over again, you can assume that rocks won't suddenly start flying up mountains the moment you're not looking. What I'm saying here is the assumption of the consistency of events. The tide goes in and out when you are looking. Everyone else sees the tide going in and out. Does the tide stop moving when no-one is looking?

If it did, we would have to find an explanation why the tides would stop moving. In that case, we could look at traces the tides leave behind. As the tide goes in and out, it washed the traces that are left on the sand. That is fact. If we make traces on the beach while the tide is low, and return after the tides have turned, while no-one was looking, we see the traces are gone. We can assume that someone came and erased the traces, making it look just like if the tide had done it, or we can assume the tide had come in and out, washing the tracks.

At this point, the interpretation of the fact the traces are gone creates evidence. It can be used as evidence for the returning tide, or for something else which erased the traces while making it look like the tides. The evidence for the first hypothesis leads to the question of what made the tides start, and what makes them continue. The evidence for the second hypothesis leads to another question on top of the first questions: how or why did the tide not erase the tracks? In other words, what made the tides stop? In the absence of other evidence, we can assume the tide was responsible for erasing the tracks. However, if wee see that a dam has been build out to sea, and that the damn stops the progression of tides (fact) we can use that as evidence to discredit the hypothesis that the tides erased the tracks, since the tides couldn't reach the tracks. Therefore, it is logical to assume something else did.



One common misunderstanding some people have is that science tries to prove something. It doesn't. In the above, I wasn't trying to prove anything. Science tries to disprove everything, and what stands, what can't be disproven, is likely closer to the truth than all the other things which were disproven.


I will end my post with this. I am eagerly awaiting your reply Chad! I honestly do want a two-way conversation. Everything I say is open to criticism and debate, and if I cannot substantiate what I say, I will either correct myself or retract the claim. I am looking forward to a good, intelligent discussion with you!
 
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I will end my post with this. I am eagerly awaiting your reply Chad!
This isn't a wild west saloon and this particular post is not really picking a fight.
Anyway if your looking for the fastest gun my bet is he is "Somewhere In Eternity".
 
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Hello BCRE8TVE.

Your statement regarding the purpose of Science is at odds with the purpose stated in Wikipedia.

You said;

One common misunderstanding some people have is that science tries to prove something.
It doesn't. In the above, I wasn't trying to prove anything. Science tries to disprove everything,
and what stands, what can't be disproven, is likely closer to the truth than all the other things
which were disproven. (BCRE8TVE)

Wikipedia contains a different statement of purpose?

Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and
organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.

An older and closely related meaning still in use today is that found for example in Aristotle,
whereby "science" refers to the body of reliable knowledge itself, of the type that can be logically
and rationally explained (see "History and philosophy" section below).
Since classical antiquity science as a type of knowledge was closely linked to philosophy.
(Wikipedia)

Perhaps, a rethink is in order, you may be wasting Chad's time.
 
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Chad - thank you so much for your post - fascinating and very helpful for an age-old argument. I have a few reliable weapons now.

BCRE8TIVE: It is healthy to look forward to a debate....but I think your expectations will be wildly exceeded!!!
 
BCRE8TVE -- one hole in your metaphor here, is that you're talking about a physical object -- a rock -- and trying to compare how we think of these things vs. how we might begin a conversation regarding God.

But God is Spirit (John 4:24), and we can only see/know him "in spirit and in truth". This verse alone might shed some light on why science will never be a method or channel by which we may "know" God. Science does, however, testify of Him. But testimony alone doesn't bring one to "know" something. Can you "know" your wife by science proving she exists? Uh...that's a big no. You may not even know her well after a decade of marriage!! :-) But hey...the journey is the point anyways... (ok, I'm getting off track here... I digress)


If some say that the rock exists, and others say the rock doesn't exist, all other things being equal, it is more likely that the greater number of people are correct.

Ok BCRE8TVE...you got me worried.

You really believe the masses are usually correct? Have you ever studied mob mentality, or the history of financial bubbles? The masses believe (you were mocked if you didn't) that the world was flat, blood-letting healed you, and cigarette smoking was good for your health (1950's, etc.).....until it didn't!

There's a reason why Voltaire said "the masses are asses"...and it wasn't because he thought they were right or smart. :-)



Essentially, I am interesting on how you came to build your 'Bible glasses' to look at evidence, because I have no idea how you built them and what you see through them.

Similarly, I (dare I saw, we?) am interested in how you put on your "atheist / skeptic" glasses to look at evidence...because to me, it's only one side of the story, and woefully incomplete to come to the truth.


Science tries to disprove everything, and what stands, what can't be disproven, is likely closer to the truth than all the other things which were disproven.

By this statement, you would have to reasonably say that science may then, actually, support the idea of God, as it has not...and will never, disprove God.

As you say above, God is "likely closer to the truth" than those things we can disprove.

As to why you've taken it to the secondary/tertiary derivative, and outright chosen to say you "don't believe" in Him, is your faith, and faith alone. Or, perhaps better said: it's your choice to go there.


Anyway if your looking for the fastest gun my bet is he is "Somewhere In Eternity".

"Somewhere In Eternity": what an oxymoron... :-)
 
"Somewhere In Eternity": what an oxymoron... :-)
Thank you,I do my best to be cryptic and or unusual.
It sounds all spiritual doesn't it?
However for those to whom it is revealed it has a very secular down to earth meaning.So one might say it is not true.But I feel confident that it is truth.
 
Your statement regarding the purpose of Science is at odds with the purpose stated in Wikipedia.

Except, of course, that it isn't.

For one thing, you're quoting a wikipedia article on "Science", not "the purpose of science". He was quite obviously talking about how science actually works. Interestingly enough, the second paragraph of the article your cite reads,

"In modern use, "science" is a term which more often refers to a way of pursuing knowledge, and not the knowledge itself."​

Science goes about the business of organizing a systematic knowledge of our universe is by questioning everything. Further down in the article you cite there is an excellent quote from Francis Bacon expressing this sentiment:

"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties."​

Enjoy.

Lurker
 
This isn't a wild west saloon and this particular post is not really picking a fight.
Anyway if your looking for the fastest gun my bet is he is "Somewhere In Eternity".

Gah, I might have been misunderstood. I didn't mean it in a "Bring it on!!!" sense, I meant it to say that I was sincerely honestly eager to read what Chad was (is, dare I hope?) going to write, because I don't understand his position. I do not want to portray Chad as a close-minded fundamentalist young earth creationist, that is not my intent. What I would like to know is what kind of arguments Chad uses to support his claim. What he says and the way he says them will give me an insight into how Chad is thinking, just as what I say gives everyone an insight into how I think.

I don't mean to have a 'fastest gun' argument competition, nor do I want a debate where I can 'prove dem stoopid christians wrong' and show the intellectual superiority of atheism. Absolutely not. My goal is to engage in a meaningful conversation where we both exchange ideas with mutual respect in order to ascertain what each of our relative positions are.

That is what I meant to say when I wrote that I was eagerly awaiting his reply. Hope this helps :embarasse

Respectfully
BCRE8TVE
 
Okie, I'll get back to the heavier spiritual stuff later, right now I just want to correct two itty bitty mistakes.

Ok BCRE8TVE...you got me worried.

You really believe the masses are usually correct? Have you ever studied mob mentality, or the history of financial bubbles? The masses believe (you were mocked if you didn't) that the world was flat, blood-letting healed you, and cigarette smoking was good for your health (1950's, etc.).....until it didn't!

There's a reason why Voltaire said "the masses are asses"...and it wasn't because he thought they were right or smart. :-)
Notice the very next sentence says that a general consensus is NOT what determines the validity of the claim. I knew this was going to side-track the discussion into who is more qualified, if a group of people with an agenda (secular or religious) all say the same thing no matter what, etc etc etc. That is why I didn't go there. It's good you noticed, though, but I most certainly do not believe that.



Similarly, I (dare I saw, we?) am interested in how you put on your "atheist / skeptic" glasses to look at evidence...because to me, it's only one side of the story, and woefully incomplete to come to the truth.
No problem! That's also partly why I am here! To dispel misconceptions about atheists and to tell my own vision of things as an atheist, so others may better understand me and others in my position.




By this statement, you would have to reasonably say that science may then, actually, support the idea of God, as it has not...and will never, disprove God.
Unfortunately, science can only test claims that can be disproven. Therefore, either God can be disproven, and science confirms His existence or His absence, or he can not be disproven, and we'll never know. I'll just say that many many many gods of the past were disproven, and the moment they were people stopped believing in them. The big question is, do you want a God that can be disproven?
 
Unfortunately, science can only test claims that can be disproven. Therefore, either God can be disproven, and science confirms His existence or His absence, or he can not be disproven, and we'll never know.
Wow,isn't that what Spock said to get that computer to blow itself up?

That is what I meant to say when I wrote that I was eagerly awaiting his reply. Hope this helps
That was just my lame attempt at humor.But your kind of like the stray dog that we snuck home so don't bark ok?
 
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.So one might say it is not true.But I feel confident that it is truth.


hehe...that reminds me of a Tom Petty song...Saving Grace:

"You're confident but not really sure"

...and it goes on to say...


"And it's hard to say
Who you are these days
But you run on anyway
Don't you baby?

You keep running for another place
To find that saving grace

Don't you baby?"




Sorry I continue to digress here...but then again, something about that may be very apropros to the ensuing discussion, dont'cha think? :-)
 
i dont try to disprove them personally however if you look at what they say you can find circular logic and flaws in the theories that pass for science today. for instance they say you can tell a fossils age by the rock/layer its found in and that you can tell rocks age by the fossils found in it. its circular logic. my basic strategy is to avoid evolutionists unless God puts them on my path and gives me the words. which has only happened once with a fella telling me about "christian science" which is no doubt a way to mislead people who will just listen and accept opposed to researching for themselves.
 
Dear itinerant Lurker

Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.
(Wikipedia)

This is what Science does, Science means knowledge.

Science is a gathering of knowledge about the Universe.

Science assumes of course that the human mind can understand the knowledge it harnesses. Otherwise, it would be futile.

Is Science up to the task, what tasks?

Testable explanations and predictions regarding the Universe.
 


Science is a gathering of knowledge about the Universe.


Exactly, and science does this by testing testable hypotheses - discarding those that are falsified and tentatively accepting those that remain. How is this different than what you've already been told?

Is Science up to the task,

Obviously, seeing as science works.

what tasks?

Testable, falsifiable hypotheses.



Lurker
 
for instance they say you can tell a fossils age by the rock/layer its found in and that you can tell rocks age by the fossils found in it. its circular logic.

It's also a lie. Might want to try understanding what scientists actually say prior to expounding upon what you think they say - just a heads up.




Lurker
 
i dont try to disprove them personally however if you look at what they say you can find circular logic and flaws in the theories that pass for science today. for instance they say you can tell a fossils age by the rock/layer its found in and that you can tell rocks age by the fossils found in it. its circular logic. my basic strategy is to avoid evolutionists unless God puts them on my path and gives me the words. which has only happened once with a fella telling me about "christian science" which is no doubt a way to mislead people who will just listen and accept opposed to researching for themselves.

I think it's important for me to clear your mis-conprehension here just as much as it is important for you to correct me if/when I misrepresent Jesus.

The way you present the argument, yes it is circular logic. However, that is not how geologists and paleontologists work. Geologists have measured by a variety of methods the age of different layers around the world. They have come up with names for layers laid down around the world at around the same time (eg: silurian, devonian, etc, are all names used to describe an ancient epoch). Paleontologists (people who study fossils) found that certain types of fossils are only found within rock strata of a certain age (eg you won't find a rabbit fossil in rocks 1 billion year old). They have also found various methods of dating fossils, and have found that dating methods, when applied correctly, showed that the age of the fossil and the age of the rock strata it was found in is more or less the same. Thus, both methods, independently of each other, arrive at the same age.

The correct way to present the argument would be to say that some fossils are only found in some rock layers, and by identifying those fossils you can know the age of the rock layers, and that furthermore, some rock layers always have a determinate age, and that by identifying the rock layer, you can guess the approximate age of the fossil. Also, you can determine the age of fossils, and by determining the age of a fossil, you can getermine the approximate age of the rock strata surrounding it.

It's only circular reasoning in so much as saying that things become wet when put in water because when you put something in water it becomes wet. This argument is flawed for the same reason as your above statement.
 
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*** Please Read ***

Please read the following carefully.

What is an assumption?

Something that is accepted as true without proof.

The assumptions of science are:

1. Nature is orderly, it has a pattern, and structure.

2. We can know nature.

3. All phenomena have natural causes.

4. Nothing is self evident. Truth claims must be demonstrated objectively.

5. Knowledge is derived Empirically. Thru senses directly or indirectly.

6. Knowledge is superior to ignorance.

For all these assumptions 1-6, there is no proof, they are held to be true.
You must believe that the assumptions are true to accept Science.
My problem is with assumptions numbers 3, and 5.

All phenomena have natural causes.
What an incredible assumption to make.
This is well beyond the scope of thought to assume.
Since, Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
How is it possible to make an assumption regarding natural causes?
Jesus Christ created the Universe.
Test that one Mr Scientist.

Knowledge is derived empirically.
Empiricism emphasizes evidence, in experiments.
Rather than on reasoning, intuition, or revelation.
Note: Jesus Christ is revelation.
The Bible is revelation.
Empiricism is going nowhere.

In conclusion, Science is going nowhere,
it never had it in the first place.
What hypothesis...
 
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