Proving Joseph The Father according to Flesh

[Ivar]

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
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1. Mary referred to Joseph as Christ father; When Christ said he was about his Fathers business they did not know what he was talking about.

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
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2. Joseph lineage “Solomon”; not Mary, Mary lineage of Nathan
See Mat 1:6-16 Joseph lineage ; Luke 3:23-31 Mary lineage

2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
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3. Philip calls Christ son of Joseph “of whom Moses and prophets wrote about”

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
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4. Mary and Holy Spirit not a man however Christ refers to himself as Son of Man

Joh_3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh_8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye
know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak
these things.
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5. Man = Type of Flesh;

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another
flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
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6. Man = Male/Female; Son of Man = Offspring of Male/Female ;

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in
the day when they were created.
Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For
God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
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7. Seed is of and thru Man ;

Gen 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
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8. Christ is seed of David; According to flesh = offspring of male and female / Seed and Womb
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
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9. Christ Had to be made like his people
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
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10. Just Defined: based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

What did Joseph wrongly or immorally do and not willing to make Mary Publick Example?

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was
espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
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1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is
come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

All mainstream Abrahamic Faiths say not come in the Flesh: Judaism say not come in the Flesh "yet"; Both Muslims and Christians say not come in the flesh. "by denying flesh of Joseph"
Muslims believe that Jesus (called 'Isa in Arabic) was the son of Mary, and was conceived without the intervention of a human father.

The Immaculate Conception is the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception keeping her "immaculate".

 

[Lacawar]

Mathew 1:18 (before they came together) is not referring to relations. Coming together is never used for having relations in the Bible. Knew or know is used.
So that coming together was meant for something else!

 

[Ivar]

Mathew 1:18 (before they came together) is not referring to relations. Coming together is never used for having relations in the Bible. Knew or know is used.
So that coming together was meant for something else!

@Lacawar Question and Statement that needs no answer;
Could it be referring to relations in the context of something else referring to their relations?

 

[Lacawar]

Here are "came together"
Scriptures to prove that doesn't reference relations but assembling:
Matthew 27:62
[62]Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
Mark 6:33
[33]And the people saw them departing, and many knew him, and ran afoot thither out of all cities, and outwent them, and came together unto him.
Mark 7:1
[1]Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
Luke 5:15
[15]But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities.
Luke 23:48
[48]And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
Acts 2:6
[6]Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 15:6
[6]And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 20:7
[7]And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1 Esdras 9:38
[38]And the whole multitude came together with one accord into the broad place of the holy porch toward the east:

 

[Ivar]

Here are "came together"
Scriptures to prove that doesn't reference relations but assembling:
Matthew 27:62
[62]Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
Mark 6:33
[33]And the people saw them departing, and many knew him, and ran afoot thither out of all cities, and outwent them, and came together unto him.
Mark 7:1
[1]Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
Luke 5:15
[15]But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities.
Luke 23:48
[48]And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned.
Acts 2:6
[6]Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Acts 15:6
[6]And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts 20:7
[7]And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
1 Esdras 9:38
[38]And the whole multitude came together with one accord into the broad place of the holy porch toward the east:

@Lacawar "ok avoiding the question perhaps" hopefully this is my last question and statement that needs no answer.

Do you know any living organism that has a male and female parent whose mother and father did not come together in regard to having offspring? Question/Statement
Coming together can be synonymous with knowing each other or Intimacy. Statement

 

[Sue D.]

Joseph was Legally the father of Jesus.

Yes, the phrase 'came together' is used many times which you have shown. Each time in a specific context. Two or more people 'came together' for a specific purpose. Public gatherings.

The Context of Mary and Joseph 'had no union' together as per Matthew 1:25 "until she gave birth to a son." That's using the older NIV.

And the New King James version uses the phrase "and did not know her until she had brought forth her firstborn Son."

The context of both those passages is sexual intimacy.
Re: post #5 -- Normally -- in order to reproduce a male and female have to come together because both egg and ***** are essential to create the off-spring.
There was Nothing Normal about Mary's first pregnancy. In Scripture we have the angel telling Mary of her coming pregnancy and questioning the angel as to how that would be possible since she had known no man. And the angel told her that the Holy Spirit would 'come upon' her.

You Also realize that the 'virgin' birth was a one-time event in the history of mankind. That's why it is a Miracle. And -- it was necessary for Jesus to be both human and deity -- in order that His death on the cross and His bodily resurrection would provide for 'our' salvation.

 

[Ivar]

Joseph was Legally the father of Jesus.

Yes, the phrase 'came together' is used many times which you have shown. Each time in a specific context. Two or more people 'came together' for a specific purpose. Public gatherings.

The Context of Mary and Joseph 'had no union' together as per Matthew 1:25 "until she gave birth to a son." That's using the older NIV.

And the New King James version uses the phrase "and did not know her until she had brought forth her firstborn Son."

The context of both those passages is sexual intimacy.
Re: post #5 -- Normally -- in order to reproduce a male and female have to come together because both egg and ***** are essential to create the off-spring.
There was Nothing Normal about Mary's first pregnancy. In Scripture we have the angel telling Mary of her coming pregnancy and questioning the angel as to how that would be possible since she had known no man. And the angel told her that the Holy Spirit would 'come upon' her.

You Also realize that the 'virgin' birth was a one-time event in the history of mankind. That's why it is a Miracle. And -- it was necessary for Jesus to be both human and deity -- in order that His death on the cross and His bodily resurrection would provide for 'our' salvation.

@Sue D.

1. legally and biologically otherwise scripture is broken such as

2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

2. One time event? Nothing new under the Sun

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.


3. Older NIV along with NKJB? I see.

4. You will have to figure out that there are two words used for virgin bethula and alma. Bethula is used 50 times while Alma is used only 7. It is used only 7 times for a specific reason and a specific emphasis

5. No need for us to go in circles; I agree to disagree. :grin:

 

[Ivar]

Unfortunately I only became aware of this today and I do find Wikipedia questionable at times however it seems spot; "with at least possible one exception i won't mention"
Almah - Wikipedia


Almah (עַלְמָה‬ ‘almāh, plural: ‘ălāmōṯ עֲלָמוֹת‬) is a Hebrew word for a maiden or woman of childbearing age who may be unmarried or married.[1] It does not, in and of itself, indicate whether she is a virgin, for which a different Hebrew word betulah is used. The Septuagint version of the Old Testament renders both Hebrew words almah and betulah as the same Greek word parthenos. The term occurs nine times in the Hebrew Bible.

Gesenius defines the word as a "girl of marriageable age". In modern Hebrew almah means a young woman or girl, a young or unmarried woman.

 

[Sue D.]

This is one area that's Too important to 'agree to disagree'. You Do realize that Without the virgin birth of Jesus , He would Not be the Son of God. He would Not / Could Not be the Savior. Or, maybe, for some reason you Don't want Christianity to exist.. The virgin birth is essential to it. Which leads to the death , burial and bodily resurrection. A plan Jewish man would Not be able to die for our sins and rise again bodily.

 

[Ivar]

This is one area that's Too important to 'agree to disagree'. You Do realize that Without the virgin birth of Jesus , He would Not be the Son of God. He would Not / Could Not be the Savior. Or, maybe, for some reason you Don't want Christianity to exist.. The virgin birth is essential to it. Which leads to the death , burial and bodily resurrection. A plan Jewish man would Not be able to die for our sins and rise again bodily.

@Sue D.
It sounds like you are under a understanding that Christ would not be the Son of God before he came in the flesh.

Christ was the Son of God before he came in the flesh. Who do you think wrestled with Jacob and gave him the name Israel?

Christ is the Son of God because he is the firstborn of all Creation and is led by the Holy Spirit.

Coming into the flesh of Man, Christ inherited the title Son of Man not necessarily Son of God

Christ was born of an Almah. Here is an online encyclopedia reference on the Hebrew word Almah once again.

Almah - Wikipedia

 

[Sue D.]

Jesus Christ was the Son of God -- part of the deity. He's Always been the Son of God.

What I'm saying -- what Scripture is saying -- is that the birth of Jesus Christ / His entrance into 'this' world -- came exactly as Scripture said it did. By means of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary -- a young woman who was a virgin at that time.

The word / title of Immanuel was used in Isaiah and fulfilled in Matthew as meaning "Son of God".

It bothers me a Lot that you're so inclined to disregard the virginity of Mary.

Do you feel that - for some reason - mankind does not Need a Savior?!

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.

Jesus Christ was the Son of God -- part of the deity. He's Always been the Son of God.

What I'm saying -- what Scripture is saying -- is that the birth of Jesus Christ / His entrance into 'this' world -- came exactly as Scripture said it did. By means of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary -- a young woman who was a virgin at that time.

The word / title of Immanuel was used in Isaiah and fulfilled in Matthew as meaning "Son of God".

It bothers me a Lot that you're so inclined to disregard the virginity of Mary.

Do you feel that - for some reason - mankind does not Need a Savior?!

@Sue D.
that is why i opened up with Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

You might not see it or understand but when it comes to Man; We are all born of the Holy Ghost. Our temple is crafted thru the union of our parents in our mothers womb and our spirit is thru or of the Holy Ghost which is of The Father.

You yourself was born of the Holy Ghost.

Jeremiah 1:5 is not exclusive to prophets neither is Luke 1:35 exclusive to Christ. "minus the ordaining to prophet-hood and whatever specific purpose an individual may or may not be given"
Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

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Do you feel that - for some reason - mankind does not Need a Savior?!
There you go putting preconceived notions on me because I say Joseph was the father according to the flesh. Possibly not the best way but I have used the verses.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

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Are you literally saying that the seed of the woman is not of the man?

Are you saying that Christ was born according to the flesh of man but not have a biological male father?

Are you saying that Christ is the Son of Man but not have a male biological parent?


1 Corinthians 11:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

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Initially i was taught that Christ had no biological father however i had to study and be taught again.
I am not going to rehash my initial post it has all been laid out. Though i wish I could edit and improve it even more. I laid out 10 clear points and no one has contended with any of them. Until then i have nothing else to add.

 

[MRSEdwards]

@Sue D.



@Sue D.
that is why i opened up with Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

You might not see it or understand but when it comes to Man; We are all born of the Holy Ghost. Our temple is crafted thru the union of our parents in our mothers womb and our spirit is thru or of the Holy Ghost which is of The Father.

You yourself was born of the Holy Ghost.

Jeremiah 1:5 is not exclusive to prophets neither is Luke 1:35 exclusive to Christ. "minus the ordaining to prophet-hood and whatever specific purpose an individual may or may not be given"
Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

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Do you feel that - for some reason - mankind does not Need a Savior?!
There you go putting preconceived notions on me because I say Joseph was the father according to the flesh. Possibly not the best way but I have used the verses.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

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Are you literally saying that the seed of the woman is not of the man?

Are you saying that Christ was born according to the flesh of man but not have a biological male father?

Are you saying that Christ is the Son of Man but not have a male biological parent?


1 Corinthians 11:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

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Initially i was taught that Christ had no biological father however i had to study and be taught again.
I am not going to rehash my initial post it has all been laid out. Though i wish I could edit and improve it even more. I laid out 10 clear points and no one has contended with any of them. Until then i have nothing else to add.

I had to read through the whole post to understand what you were pointing out Joseph was the Father of his Flesh but not the Father of his Divinity because Joseph was a direct descendant of David

 

[Ivar]

I had to read through the whole post to understand what you were pointing out Joseph was the Father of his Flesh but not the Father of his Divinity because Joseph was a direct descendant of David

@MRSEdwards
Yes. Eph 4:6 talks about the Father of Divinity in my opinion

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joseph "unlike Mary" was also a direct descendant of Solomon who sat on the throne and is important because it fulfills. "shadow of things to come"

2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

However people are taught otherwise and are under the impression that with Joseph being the father according to the flesh it diminishes him or his accomplishments in some way.
My mentor told me that it makes people feel less accountable of their actions and more comfortable if Joseph is not the father. "That Jesus is God and perfect and since we are not perfect we can not do it, and we do not have to try."

The immaculate conception is said to actually originate with the wife of Nimrod "Semiramus" who is also known as Ishtar and the Queen Mother of heaven. With Easter originally being the celebration of her; and around December 25 being when her son Tammuz or the said reincarnation of Nimrod was born.

 

[Lacawar]

Sue D. It's a blessing to hear when someone has done research to find the truth after holding onto false doctrine for so long! I'm smiling ear to ear. My prayer is for you to continue that search on other matters also. All answers are in the scriptures. We have to rightly divide the WORD and when we do its amazing what understanding we get! Listen to the HOLY SPIRIT, she's the key to getting that understanding!

 

[Lacawar]

If I posted to the wrong person I apologize! It's in response to whoever came to the correct conclusion that Joseph is CHRIST biological father!

 

[MRSEdwards]

@MRSEdwards
Yes. Eph 4:6 talks about the Father of Divinity in my opinion

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joseph "unlike Mary" was also a direct descendant of Solomon who sat on the throne and is important because it fulfills. "shadow of things to come"

2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

However people are taught otherwise and are under the impression that with Joseph being the father according to the flesh it diminishes him or his accomplishments in some way.
My mentor told me that it makes people feel less accountable of their actions and more comfortable if Joseph is not the father. "That Jesus is God and perfect and since we are not perfect we can not do it, and we do not have to try."

The immaculate conception is said to actually originate with the wife of Nimrod "Semiramus" who is also known as Ishtar and the Queen Mother of heaven. With Easter originally being the celebration of her; and around December 25 being when her son Tammuz or the said reincarnation of Nimrod was born.

Ivar this is a interesting post indeed I came from a legalistic cult religion myself and there was some misconceptions in my belief system. The church I came out of was so Hyper Spiritualized there was no balance between the Word of God and the Holy Spirit agreeing thank God for sending my husband in my life he challenged me to search the scriptures for myself and not just hear it preached. It reminds of the "Bereans" who tested Paul.

 

[Sue D.]

@MRSEdwards
Yes. Eph 4:6 talks about the Father of Divinity in my opinion

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Joseph "unlike Mary" was also a direct descendant of Solomon who sat on the throne and is important because it fulfills. "shadow of things to come"

2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

However people are taught otherwise and are under the impression that with Joseph being the father according to the flesh it diminishes him or his accomplishments in some way.
My mentor told me that it makes people feel less accountable of their actions and more comfortable if Joseph is not the father. "That Jesus is God and perfect and since we are not perfect we can not do it, and we do not have to try."

The immaculate conception is said to actually originate with the wife of Nimrod "Semiramus" who is also known as Ishtar and the Queen Mother of heaven. With Easter originally being the celebration of her; and around December 25 being when her son Tammuz or the said reincarnation of Nimrod was born.

The 'immaculate conception' term sounds RCC in origin. The RCC teaches that Mary never had any other children. That giving birth to Jesus somehow made her womb sacred. But that is Not what Scripture tells us.

@ Ivar -- it Has been established that Joseph was the Legally recognized parent of Jesus. Mary and Joseph were considered as his Legal parents.

However -- Mary Was conceived Of / impregnated By the Holy Spirit.

Well -- My 'mentor' God's Word says says that All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And that we Are , personally, responsible for our sinfulness -- and need to accept Jesus Christ as Savior / Messiah on a personal level. Well -- our sinful nature came through Adam and Eve eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That propensity for sinfulness came through them and since then, each person inherits sinfulness.

Josephs' 'accomplishment' was being the biological father to the Other children produced by Mary. But Joseph's ***** had NO part in the impregnation of Mary -- That was All through the Holy Spirit.

Joseph and Mary Are recognized by society at that time as Jesus's Legal parents.

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.
1. Immaculate Conception is Tower of Babel origin which many nations took with them when their tongues were split and they were scattered across the earth.

2. Roman Catholic is a very wide and broad path. I would not be surprised if they teach that Mary had no more children . More than likely because she has God status in the inner circles and represents the Queen Mother of Heaven. Possibly unbeknownst to the masses

3. Luke 3:35 explains how Mary was found with Child of the Holy Ghost "or the process" and at that time when Gabriel spoke with her She did not know any man "her hymen was still intact".

Luke 1:35 King James Version (KJV)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

4. Also Like I mentioned previously that is not exclusive to Christ. You don't think the Holy Spirit did the same with Samson?

Judges 13:24-24 King James Version (KJV)
24 And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the Lord blessed him.
25 And the Spirit of the Lord began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol. "Who do you think this Spirit of the Lord mentioned here is"?

Also Consider
Like unto me / thee =Like Moses and Moses had a biological mother and biological father of the flesh. Their is no getting around that according to the natural order; an offspring of man according to the flesh is thru male and female.

Deuteronomy 18:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lordmy God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

 

[MRSEdwards]

The 'immaculate conception' term sounds RCC in origin. The RCC teaches that Mary never had any other children. That giving birth to Jesus somehow made her womb sacred. But that is Not what Scripture tells us.

@ Ivar -- it Has been established that Joseph was the Legally recognized parent of Jesus. Mary and Joseph were considered as his Legal parents.

However -- Mary Was conceived Of / impregnated By the Holy Spirit.

Well -- My 'mentor' God's Word says says that All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And that we Are , personally, responsible for our sinfulness -- and need to accept Jesus Christ as Savior / Messiah on a personal level. Well -- our sinful nature came through Adam and Eve eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That propensity for sinfulness came through them and since then, each person inherits sinfulness.

Josephs' 'accomplishment' was being the biological father to the Other children produced by Mary. But Joseph's ***** had NO part in the impregnation of Mary -- That was All through the Holy Spirit.

Joseph and Mary Are recognized by society at that time as Jesus's Legal parents.

Amen!