Purgatory

[Penguins4123]

What do you think it is?

Good and evil happen every day. My boyfriend believes that Earth and all life within it IS Purgatory. Meaning that if you do good deeds and follow the word of the lord, then when you pass over to the other side you will have earned your ticket to heaven.

On the other hand, if you do evil deeds and follow the word of the devil, you will have earned your ticket to hell.

But those who do both throughout their life will be given a second chance and be reborn on earth through reincarnation. This is Purgatory.

I believe purgatory is a realm where a lost soul 'ghost' is unable to pass over until it has completed unfinished business.

What is the forums thoughts on this?

Many thanx,
kelley

 

[Rain]

Hi Kelley,

What exactly do you mean by purgatory? Because you know that there is no mention at all of purgatory in the bible, no matter which version you read?

There is however a verse in Hebrews 9:27 which tells us that just as Jesus died once for all of our sins, man's destiny is to die once and then face judgement.

This verse spells out very clearly how our death and judgement will take place. Having said that; God is outside time, and Heaven where he dwells must therefore be also outside time. Considering this, it would be safe to assume that when a person who has been saved by Jesus dies, one of two things may happen;

1) Either that person will immediately [in man's sense of the word 'immediately'] be judged by God and take up their given position in Heaven,

or

2) The person will be judged after their death [in God's sense of the word 'after', keeping mind that his time is not linear like ours] and take up their given position in Heaven.

This is not to say we should 'suscribe' to an Seveth Day Adventist belief like 'soul sleep' which is not supported anywhere in the bible. Instead, in this situation, where there isn't sufficent biblical evidence to know one way or another, we should acknowledge it as one of the many mysteries surrounding heaven and death.

We should endeavour not to make our own personally held beliefs in these currently unknown areas stumbling blocks to others with different beliefs. But when we hear clearly false doctrine like soul sleep and pugatory being taught to out brothers and sisters we should challenge the teachers of these doctrine in love in case they are not aware of the fallacy of their teaching, but not being overly tolerant of deliberately false teachers.

To be blunt and as loving as possible in my reply to you; biblically there is no such thing as 'ghosts', 'passing over', 'reincarnation', or even unfinished business in the sense that you mean it. If you don't finish your 'business' on earth before you die there are no second chances, unless you are Lazarus!

 

[Brother Mike]

What is this?

God Bless Kelly. You do know the difference between what is in the Bible and movies right?

Could you give some scriptures to make your point a little more clear.

 

[natty threads]

Love in Yeshua, bleesed brothers and sisters.
Please read Luke 12:42-48 and then the Revelation of Peter and then rethink purgatory.

I didn't believe in Hell at first, but now I think I understand a bit more.

Maybe.

Am praying on it.

God loves all of us and I think maybe we're all saved in the end.
(Am I allowed to post a link yet?)

But do you really want to experience Hell because of a stiff neck?

Submit and give and obey the will of God.
Bypass the beast and stomp on Satan's head.

(I know we have to fulfill the book.)

Bless up!
Jennifer

 

[Penguins4123]

Could you give some scriptures to make your point a little more clear.

Hi Brother Mike. I think it's referred to as 'temporal punishment'.

h t t p://w w w.new advent. org/ cathen/ 12575a. h t m

Ps. delete the spaces

 

[Penguins4123]

Scripture

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.




Regards,



Kelley

 

[Brother Mike]

God Bless Kelly

Dear Sister Kelly!!! God bless you.


There is a problem your going to run into here. Most everyone here finds that the Apocrypha is Worthless!!!! It may be interesting to read, but we might as well bring the book of Mormons in to play also. Satan was Jesus brother?

Then we can make up fairy tails of Ghosts with unfinished business.
It is Written that men die ONCE, then judgment. Any ghost floating around is demonic activity.

So Sister, your not going to get a very good response here as we do not believe in Ghost, We do not believe man can reject Jesus, then come back as a Ghost and accept Jesus again fixing things he messed up alive.

God is merciful, There is nothing in our bible about purgatory. He gave His only begotten Son, so that we may have eternal life with Him. He expects us to accept the free Gift of our sins being forgiven as it is not by works they are forgiven. You can mess up a billion times, and the Blood of Jesus will still clean and remove all sin. How much more mercy do we need? The Blood worked the first time.

The Word of God never contradicts itself. The Catholic Apocrypha contradicts the Word of God. The Catholic's got their bible out of Egypt, the School of Alexandria, Which was a School that studied all gods, and thought that each god was a valid god. To make it worse, they changed the Word of God to fit their theology and gave it to the Catholics.

If you were brought up this way, then It will take the power of the Holy Ghost to convince you. I believe he will.....

God Bless.

 

[natty threads]

What about the Luke, Brother Mike?

Thank-you.
Bless up!

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't want to pick apart Kelly's post..... but I'll explain some things because you asked.

The Problem Kelly is having like a lot of Catholics, is they don't get the concept that Gods word can never contradict. They just don't understand it. So, when trying to reason with them, you can point out 20 scriptures to show them that they are taking the scripture wrong and it does not make sense to them. We are dealing with a very strong and demonic religious spirit. I am sure Kelly means well, but really confused.....I mean look.....

Kelly thinks we have to pay for sin, and wrong doing. No, Jesus was talking about a real prison, he was making a point to settle things before they went to court.......

we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

No sin as it has been blotted out, so no debt to pay. We can not pay for our sins!!!! our mistakes!!! Jesus did that once and for all!!!

I could give tons of other scripture, but this will do as I need room to explain Luke.

====================================================


http://bible.logos.com/passage/kjv/Luke 12.47-48

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Kelly got a few things right, but misunderstands the point Jesus was making and forget some scripture.

I will not argue if this is rapture or whatever. The point is that it is final and Jesus shows up.

Mat 25:1 also describes and event with 10 virgins, some which did not have oil ready and missed the feast.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Just like the virgins, this servant knew the Lords will, God had given him a plan for his life, and he did not follow it. As we grow in the Lord, more is required of us, so that the man that knew better gets the more stripes. Not following the plan of God.

However we have to continue reading Luke...............
Right after Jesus talks about not following his will he makes this statement.

Luk 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

No scripture is to be interpreted by itself!!! Catholics don't see it that way. compare to this scripture for not follow what God told you to do.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The man does not go to purgatory, What scripture was that? he looses everything he accomplished on earth that was not God's will and misses out on rewards that are given. Those that are faithful shall even judge angels. There are rewards and crowns given in Heaven. Some to their shame will not receive rewards, but still be with Jesus.
======================================================
=====================================================
Hell, Sheol, Paradise.......................................

There has been problems with the Greek text on these words. Paradise means in Greek a place of future happiness, or Eden, garden.
this is not he Catholics version of purgatory as there is some form of punishment for sins. Kelly even things you get stripes on your back in purgatory. The Greek usage of Paradise has never meant any form of punishment.

παράδεισος
paradeisos
par-ad'-i-sos
Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.

Paul knew a man caught up in paradise. Catholics believe Purgatory is Down not up. Many believe Paul was talking of the third heaven, as Satan is the prince of the air being one of the heavens.

yet, in connections with Abraham's bosom. We see the same Greek word used, even though it was not the place of future happiness. So, we have to use the word in connections with the scripture and can not take the literal meaning from the Greek.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell (Hades departed souls, grave.) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

there are three Greek words that describe Hell.

Hades= Grave, place of departed souls.
Tartaroo= The deepest abyss of Hades, the part of hades for eternal torment.
Geenne= was an an actual place on earth, but used figurativly as hell or eternal torment.

In short.......
Jesus had yet to go to the cross, so all those that died went to hell.
Hades also called hell was a place of torment as the rich man was tormented with flames though the Greek does not mention torment.

Abraham was in Hell, but in a place that was separated by a gulf called Abraham's bosom. There must have been water on Abraham side as the rich man had asked for some.

So.......... all places in the bible that mention Hell refer to a place of torment, not a place of correction.

Nobody went to heaven yet, until Jesus went to the cross.
Lets skip ahead some......

Jesus is on the cross with the thief. Jesus tells the thief that this day you will be with me in Paradise. We have another Greek word problem. Paradise means garden......nothing about it being Abraham's bosom.
But Jesus said THIS DAY!!!
So Jesus went to Hell (some argue paradise) to preach the gospel to the prisoners. He took the thief with him as the thief had to go with him on that day, and Jesus was not resurrected for another 2 days.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

there is the scripture....... but we are missing a scripture........ why did Jesus preach in Hell, (Paradise, Abraham's bosom) ????
Look at the scripture above.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

there is no mention of anyone being purified for the beatific vision. More make believe. They went to God.

so, The souls came out with Jesus, to be with God. Heaven was not open for the saved as Paul said to die is to be with Christ..........

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
once your dead, THE Judgment is next. No waiting around for someone to pray you out.

Kelly says that we can not have a conscience in hell, not true. you do not change who you are, and retain all memories. that is why it is so tormenting.
==================================================
I hope this clears it up Natty.

 

[Brother Mike]

quickly....

There is not point in going over this with Kelly. The Catholic's believe that church doctrine's are just as powerful if not more than the Word of God. They also consider themselves "The Church"

They quote books that God did not write like the Apocrypha, and consider this real scripture.
They may also quote some pope or saint as if it were some scripture.



They pray to dead people like Mary, because they have no confidence to go to God directly. Some think this is idol worship, but they don't look at it that way.

They believe in the Blood of Jesus, but still believe they have to suffer for their own sin, or shortcomings.

There is not much you can do, as they won't even recognize that they contradict scripture, because they take a lot of things besides scripture and believe it is real. So if Scripture does not line up with what they are taught, then they just shrug it off as not true.
Reading one Catholic work, the man wrote that the Word of God is full of contradictions, but the death and burial of Jesus and the Blood. He went on to say that the doctrine in the Catholic church is the only way to sort truth from contradictions.

So........ no point is posting scripture..............as they don't believe half of it.

 

[rhomphaia]

Good one

I seem to have developed a "Churchianity fatigue" like Bro.Mike.

So i agree with mike,if you encounter Catholics do not believe in the express authority of scripture,don't mind arguing with them.

So at the end of the day, is God true or not? Is His word Faultless or not?

Catholics should remember that we cannot "pick and choose" scripture.Either all scripture is false or true.

It would shock some Catholics to note that those familiar with Church history know this dogma came from the church's zeal to attract sinful rogues to the crusades by offering a "pardon from the Pope" to all willing to fight.I won't get into all the dogma, but i would love all to seek out why certain beliefs are kept even though scripture indicates that there isn't a spiritual "no-man's land".

 

[Brother Mike]

Great Post

Thank you brother.
Hades was described as a place filled with flame and torment.
that does not match purgatory.

Abraham's bosom does not describe purgatory, as nobody that followed God went to heaven, until the cross.


There is no Greek word that fits purgatory.

even so, you have to get though all the scriptures that contradict such a notion.

The whole thing was started to collect money from those that lost a loved one. A priest comes by, collects your money, and then prays your loved one out of purgatory. Does not matter if your loved one knew Jesus or not. The blood of Jesus was just enough to get you in a place of correction, not enough to get you to God.
So depending on the sins, that determines the time in purgatory.

We forgot that the punishment of our sin was put on Jesus.....

It was all a scam..............to rip people off for money.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I spent the first 46+ years of my life in the Roman Catholic Church. As a child in Catholic elementary school in the 1940s, I was taught that Purgatory, as the name suggests, is a place where our souls are purged of whatever venial (lesser) sins that haven't been dealt with in confession at the time of death. If you died with unconfessed mortal sins, you were going to Hell period - no chance of being forgiven. I stopped believing that teaching when I learned the truth about the Blood of Jesus.

I've been away from the Catholic Church for twenty-five years, so I'm out of touch with their current teaching on the subject. However, there are Scripture citations in my NIV Study Bible and Study Notes (see Lk 23:43 , Lk 16:22 "Abraham's Bosom, and 2 Cor 12:2) that speak of Paradise as a place of bliss for the saved between death and resurrection.

BTW, we can't earn our way to Heaven, Penguins; "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justifird by His grace through the redempion that came by Christ Jesus." (Ro 3:23-24)

SLE

 

[Penguins4123]

God be with you brother mike.

I am not catholic. You asked for scriptures so I gave you the ones I found on the internet.

In my original question, I explained what I though purgatory was and what my boyfriend thought it was. I was just wondering what everyone else perceived purgatory to be.

Kelley

 

[JWayne]

Purgatory is a figment of one's imagination. We are either saved or un-saved. There is Heaven or Hell. We are given all the chances to make the right decision before we die, but once we do, we will not have anymore chances to change our minds.

 

[natty threads]

Revelation 6:9-11

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>9</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>10</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>11</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Revelation 14:13

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>13</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Revelation 20:4-5

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>4</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>5</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Revelation 20:13-15

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>13</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>14</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>15</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thank you brother.
Hades was described as a place filled with flame and torment.
that does not match purgatory.

Brother Mike, could you please tell me where in the Bible Hades is referred to as a place filled with flame and torment?

If this is really so, and if Hades(Hell) will give up her dead for the Judgement, then how is it not similar enough to purgatory to be called such?

Purgatory is a figment of one's imagination. We are either saved or un-saved. There is Heaven or Hell. We are given all the chances to make the right decision before we die, but once we do, we will not have anymore chances to change our minds.

JWayne, then what is the purpose of punishing then judging, if only to punish again?

Have you read The Revelation of Peter and about how it was not included in the canon? The Revelation of John won by just a slim margin, based on the type of apocalypse that those in charge wished to include, not based on authenticity.

Bless up!



<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; WIDTH: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>


</TD><TD class=t_text style="WIDTH: 100%" vAlign=top>











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[natty threads]

I've been away from the Catholic Church for twenty-five years, so I'm out of touch with their current teaching on the subject. However, there are Scripture citations in my NIV Study Bible and Study Notes (see Lk 23:43 , Lk 16:22 "Abraham's Bosom, and 2 Cor 12:2) that speak of Paradise as a place of bliss for the saved between death and resurrection.

SLE

Luke 23:43 is Jesus talking to the man who died next to Him on the cross and was most definitely a special case. I have read this to indicate that he won't be judged and is going directly to Paradise, not that every believer goes to Paradise until the Judgement.

Luke 16:22 refers to Hades and to Abraham's bosom.
How is this attached to Paradise?
What is the scripture?

2 Corinthians 12:2 does not say that Paradise is a place of bliss between birth and death. What it says is that Paul knows a man who had a vision of Paradise, either in the spirit or possibly in the spirit and the body.

Could you explain how these three verses indicate there is no "purgatory", other than the strict catholic interpretation of purgatory?
How it seems to me reading your post is that you are so angry at the catholic church, and understandably so, that you cannot admit the grain of truth they perverted in their teaching.

Especially the passage about Abraham's bosom seems more to me to indicate that there is a distinction-for-the-purpose-of-purification between death and judgement than that there is not.

It does occur to me that the "good thief" went directly to Paradise because in effect he died for Christ and because he did not have the opportunity between redemption and death to sin.

Can any of us say that?
That between our redemption and the future time when we shall die, that we have not sinned?

LET ME SAY THAT only recently have I even allowed myself to entertain the idea of a purgatory, or any awareness at all between death and judgement. It just all seemed very, well, Greek and weird.

But there are too many counter-examples in the Bible to ignore the possibility.

Bless up!

 

[natty threads]

In my original question, I explained what I though purgatory was and what my boyfriend thought it was. I was just wondering what everyone else perceived purgatory to be.

Kelley

I have come across several scriptures that seem to indicate there is purification between death and judgement.

I'll start making notes.

Bless up!
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[JWayne]

The very idea of Purgatory, and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate John 1:1.14 , paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins 1 Corinthians 15:3 . Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins 1 John 2:2. To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

 

[natty threads]

So JWayne, you believe that God will always give something for absolute depravity- which is pretty much all we offer- and will not require a purification?

This is something with which I myself am currently struggling and don't actually hold a hard fast viewpoint on...

It's just that enough scripture to give me pause indicates there is an intermediary phase.

To think that I could buy or burn candles or recite certain prayers and somehow mitigate another's sins is so...PAGAN...

And a year ago I never would have argued... but that there is a "resting" between death and judgement and would be relieved to so believe.

Please convince me.

I was happier when I thus believed.

Bless up.