Question regarding Commands of Jesus

[Dovegiven]

It doesn't work to open a soup kitchen on faith alone, telling the lost and hungry God will supply. They will leave and never return. It takes money to buy food and what it takes to prepare and serve it. Nowadays we even have to pay a fee for a city and state license to prepare meals or even bring sandwiches from home. A kitchen used for public use has a very expensive, high standard to meet. Somebody has to put some labor hours in to provide the money. I have yet to see anyone feed folks by changing rocks into hamburgers. God uses believers to do great things with no money involved, such as in large tent meetings featuring preaching. But most attending leave hungry for food. But precious few demonstrate a repeat of what Jesus did with the 5000. Hoping God will connect to enough people with supplies is too risky, giving the Church a bad name.

I will continue to reject any idea of socialism being required of Christians. That form of government has destroyed Central America, so they walk to the USA hoping to work and support their families. They are already massing up here, some being told to call me. I still don't know the lingo, and don't hire labor crews anymore. Besides, it's illegal to hire them without a valid Green Card. I doubt many of them are seeking work because they worship money instead of God. Whatever they believe of God has not worked down there. It takes a LOT of money to fix problems. When the fridge stops cooling, what replaces it? Someone has to pay money for another. They don't fall out of heaven's windows. We all should work, even if "retired", to have to give to them who have not, while first supporting one's own family by working, not waiting for God to rescue. He provides food, yes, and money for those willing to do it God's way. Paul was a great model for that. If any person has to work to pay to support filling your belly because you don't work because you love God and are waiting for Him to provide, there is nothing I want to hear about God from that person. There were roving bands of men in the mideaval times who went about requiring people to support them, who roamed for God, yet had no Bibles of course, and had no idea what to preach. They were hobos for Jesus, so to speak. It was a very unpopular enterprise.

Jesus fed the 5000 from a boy's lunch. But then He and His got up and disappeared. Some of the hearers followed and caught up, hearing a rebuke that they followed for the food. Not good. They were supposed to go back home to do what they were doing, but with instructions from the Lord.

James 2:14-16 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Don't be foolish to quit a job because you think God is telling you that. He will not do that if it means having to go without and beg. Establish yourself somewhere else first, even if that means being a servant or slave, working as if employed by (unto) Jesus. Yes, God is capable of letting people work themselves from "enough" into slavery, all around the world.

 

[Hiswillbedone]

It doesn't work to open a soup kitchen on faith alone, telling the lost and hungry God will supply. They will leave and never return. It takes money to buy food and what it takes to prepare and serve it. Nowadays we even have to pay a fee for a city and state license to prepare meals or even bring sandwiches from home. A kitchen used for public use has a very expensive, high standard to meet. Somebody has to put some labor hours in to provide the money. I have yet to see anyone feed folks by changing rocks into hamburgers. God uses believers to do great things with no money involved, such as in large tent meetings featuring preaching. But most attending leave hungry for food. But precious few demonstrate a repeat of what Jesus did with the 5000. Hoping God will connect to enough people with supplies is too risky, giving the Church a bad name.

I will continue to reject any idea of socialism being required of Christians. That form of government has destroyed Central America, so they walk to the USA hoping to work and support their families. They are already massing up here, some being told to call me. I still don't know the lingo, and don't hire labor crews anymore. Besides, it's illegal to hire them without a valid Green Card. I doubt many of them are seeking work because they worship money instead of God. Whatever they believe of God has not worked down there. It takes a LOT of money to fix problems. When the fridge stops cooling, what replaces it? Someone has to pay money for another. They don't fall out of heaven's windows. We all should work, even if "retired", to have to give to them who have not, while first supporting one's own family by working, not waiting for God to rescue. He provides food, yes, and money for those willing to do it God's way. Paul was a great model for that. If any person has to work to pay to support filling your belly because you don't work because you love God and are waiting for Him to provide, there is nothing I want to hear about God from that person. There were roving bands of men in the mideaval times who went about requiring people to support them, who roamed for God, yet had no Bibles of course, and had no idea what to preach. They were hobos for Jesus, so to speak. It was a very unpopular enterprise.

Jesus fed the 5000 from a boy's lunch. But then He and His got up and disappeared. Some of the hearers followed and caught up, hearing a rebuke that they followed for the food. Not good. They were supposed to go back home to do what they were doing, but with instructions from the Lord.

James 2:14-16 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Don't be foolish to quit a job because you think God is telling you that. He will not do that if it means having to go without and beg. Establish yourself somewhere else first, even if that means being a servant or slave, working as if employed by (unto) Jesus. Yes, God is capable of letting people work themselves from "enough" into slavery, all around the world.

No where in your reply did you touch on any of the points or questions I brought up in my reply to you... Why is that?

Through your whole response, all I hear you say is that God's way of doing things won't work, so we must work for money. This is the message you are promoting: God can't be trusted to provide for us, so we shouldn't be 'foolish and listen to His son Jesus and quit our jobs (Matt 6:24 & John 6:27), rather we should go and work for money, because money is what we need to survive.

If this is inaccurate then please correct me, but from what you are saying, this seems to be what you believe.

Your responses are full of criticisms towards Jesus and how He said we should do things, and then you go on to say 'this is how it should be done'. Are you claiming to know more than Jesus?

It sounds clear to me, and maybe to everybody reading on, that your faith is in money and what money can do. If you can see this, then it would be beneficial for you spiritually. Lukewarmness will soon be spewed out. Jesus says being cold is much better than being lukewarm.

It seems your main point is to say that if we stop working for money, then we will become beggars on the streets, and won't have anything to hel the homeless (that is why you quoted the scripture in James). Again, I point the question back to you: Do YOU clothe everybody you see that needs clothes? Or do YOU feed every homeless person you see? I mean, you have money from your job, which you are working for to help the homeless, right? Again, if you honestly answer this question, then you will see the spirit of what you are saying and how it is not directed towards truth, but directed as a justification to NOT obey Jesus. Please don't answer this question to me, keep it between you and God alone.

Listen man, I am not here to promote anything else but Jesus. I can appreciate you don't believe the way Jesus said for us to live is the 'right' way. I can understand from your perspective that it seems impossible to live in today's world without money. This my friend, is a lie. In the garden there wasn't any money, and in Heaven there won't be any money. Why do we think we need it now? God is bigger than money, and He can and will (already has for me) provide for His children in a hundred different ways. All He wants us to do is 'Let Go and Let God'. This is a popular saying in many churches, but who actually believes in it? Who is willing to let go and believe God will be there to catch us?

God wants us to be born again. He wants us to be like children. When we were born in this world, we didn't have anything with us, did we? No. We relied solely on our parents to provide everything for us. God wants us to do the same thing today. He wants us to put our faith in Him, and not in ourselves or money. Who is willing to do that? Who is willing to let the creator of the universe use us to His glory?

The way to hell is wide and broad, because not many are willing to have the faith of Abraham and leave everything for God.

Why did Jesus say," When the son of man returns, will He find ANY faith on the Earth?" (Luke 18:8) Yet there are over 1 billion professing Christians world wide? Maybe it is because true Christians and true faith in God will be/is lost in today's materialistic world? A counterfeit Jesus that the churches made up to tickle people's ears. A world that puts their faith in money and what money can buy. Which side are you on?

The cornerstone is not easy to break ourselves on. It sucks. Believe me; I know how it feels to come face to face with the cornerstone. To have everything I once believed shattered before me and the truth of Jesus being so close I can touch it. I did the same thing and fought it tooth and nail. I didn't want to let go of my traditions and beliefs. I tried all that I could to find a way to prove I was right and Jesus was wrong. But that's just it, isn't it? Nothing I can ever come up with will be able to prove Jesus wrong. Once I stopped fighting Jesus, and let Him become the Lord of my life. Everything else fell into place. All this worry, fear, pride that the devil had me under fell by the wayside, and I became firmly planted on the rock of Christ. My prayer is for others to feel the same confidence that comes with putting our faith in Jesus. A faith that can't be shaken by anything in this realm or the next. I know there are people reading this that deep down feel this way. They have this niggling doubt about what they believe, but they are afraid to question it, so they bury it as deep as they can and distract themselves from it. I'm sorry I am the one to bring it out, but you won't be happy until you deal with it. I have good news, though... Jesus has conquered the world! That doubt will be grinded to powder on the rock of Jesus if we first become broken on it. Trust me, you won't regret trusting in Jesus. This, however, can only be attained after making choice.

God or money. It is that simple. Let's not cover it up with tags like socialism, communism, etc. Let's be real. Which do you choose. God or Money. You can't have both. Your actions will determine your choice henceforth. Again, not only to you @Dovegiven, but everybody reading this message in a bottle.

We are living in the end-times brothers/sisters. We must let go of our idols and put our trust in Jesus.

In peace

 

[Chad4Him]

Thanks for being clear with your beliefs and for exposing your "doctrine" for what it is... but if you don't believe the Bible to be infallible there is no way for me to have a productive discussion with you on this subject. You are not only trying to convince me to follow Jesus' commands literally and legalistically, but also telling me that in order to do this I need to ignore parts of scripture, which I do not intend to do.

I do agree that there is a great need for revival, and those of us who proclaim Christianity should truly follow Christ. It could very well be that this will look radically different than most of Christianity today. But the answer is not to ignore scripture but rather to look to the Bible in its entirety to find the answers on how to do this and be accepted of God.

Just a reminder to those who may be reading this topic... In order to support your belief @Hiswillbedone , it requires that a person does not believe in the infallibility of scripture, for you must ignore large portions of the New Testament in order to support the idea that in order to be saved, what you must do is literally follow Jesus' commands.

Carry on!

 

[Dovegiven]

No where in your reply did you touch on any of the points or questions I brought up in my reply to you... Why is that?.......

We are living in the end-times brothers/sisters. We must let go of our idols and put our trust in Jesus.
In peace

I can't carry on your message, so I have to oppose most of what you think the scriptures say. I'll keep it a lot shorter. Just curious. You are on the internet. Who pays for it, and with what? Please be specific, rather than saying "God does". or would you say the bill just miraculously gets delivered "PAID BY GOD"? I'm interested in whether you have a free Obama phone with free internet. The days of free dialup are long past.

The apostles walked with Jesus, experienced His daily provision. But in the last week He told them they would have to make their own provision. If they were supposed to totally rely on Jesus to keep feeding and clothing them, then why do you suppose Jesus told them that? A test?

 

[Hiswillbedone]

I can't carry on your message, so I have to oppose most of what you think the scriptures say. I'll keep it a lot shorter. Just curious. You are on the internet. Who pays for it, and with what? Please be specific, rather than saying "God does". or would you say the bill just miraculously gets delivered "PAID BY GOD"? I'm interested in whether you have a free Obama phone with free internet. The days of free dialup are long past.

The apostles walked with Jesus, experienced His daily provision. But in the last week He told them they would have to make their own provision. If they were supposed to totally rely on Jesus to keep feeding and clothing them, then why do you suppose Jesus told them that? A test?

I am also curious. In my responses, where do I insert my opinion in what scripture is saying? From my perspective, I am just reading what Jesus is saying and then telling you (and others) that you must obey it. I am not following where my own opinion comes in. I think people's opinions come in when we try to interpret what Jesus is saying. Why don't we let Him speak for himself?

I won't give you the satisfaction to use me as a justification to not listen to Jesus. You asking how I am paying for internet access is just a way for you to say "AHA" see you are not doing what you are preaching." Let's be honest, no matter what I say, it won't satisfy you. I could tell you that God privides for me in a hundred different ways, but you still won't be satisfied. What you are looking for is a way to condemn the messenger, because the message can't be refuted. I won't be a part of such games.

Follow Jesus.

In peace

 

[Hiswillbedone]

Just a reminder to those who may be reading this topic... In order to support your belief @Hiswillbedone , it requires that a person does not believe in the infallibility of scripture, for you must ignore large portions of the New Testament in order to support the idea that in order to be saved, what you must do is literally follow Jesus' commands.

Carry on!

I don;t think what you are sharing is accurate. I can see the way you are wording your response is to try and negate the truth I shared, by saying that we must throw out the NT. I am not saying this. What has been clear from my responses to you and @Dovegiven is that Paul supports Jesus' teaching of forsaking all and not working for money. People twist Paul's words to make it seem like he is teaching another gospel other than the one that Jesus taught. This is what I am saying about the NT. I even quoted Paul in Galatians 1:8 saying that He WANTS us to curse him if he says anything against the gospel of Jesus. This is scriptural.

If anybody uses a scripture from Paul or any other Bible writer to negate Jesus, then I just see that person as trying to argue against the Word of God (Jesus). If people aren't able to see that the whole purpose of the Bible is to promote Jesus, then they won't understand what I am saying, becuase I am not speaking of my own accord, rather what I speak are the same words that Jesus spoke. Nothing less; nothing more. Jesus himself told this to the Pharisees in John 5. He told them that they search the scriptures because in them they think they will have eternal life, but they won't come to Jesus to receive it. The same is happening today. People are using other parts of scripture to prove Jesus wrong, yet all scripture point to Jesus. Genesis to Revelation is all about Jesus brothers and sisters.

Why are we not believing Him? Why are we putting our trust in anything/anyone else but Jesus?

This is my point, and I have Jesus to back me up on it. On judgment day, I find it hard to believe that God is going to accept people that reject everything that Jesus said on the basis of following Paul, Moses, or Solomon.

There will be hell to pay for this decision.

In peace

 

[Dovegiven]

Paul's record is the word of God, perfectly meshing with Jesus' record. I think most of us at TJ realize that by now.

Acts 18:1-3 (KJV)
1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

I can understand why someone has perhaps inherited Grandma's wealthy estate, never worked for a living, preaching that God provides for them, so why don't the rest of us trust Jesus like him, having all his needs met? Such a fool would not have a good understanding of why a person would take up a CRAFT/TRADE like tentmaking. A trade is a line of work a person can make money by the work of their hands, creating products or services to be sold to pay for materials and tools to keep doing that, paying helpers, financing marketing, paying taxes. There in Corinth Paul, characteristicaly joined in working to pay his way among his new friends who shared the same craft/trade. The economy that described is like our own capitalism, and Aquila was equal to our middle class or higher, entrepreneurs.

If God intended for man to sit back and let Him do all the work, why did He assign the gardening to Adam in Eden? Tending a garden like that is work. The whole idea of seed to harvest revolves around hard work, whehther of a farmer or laity. Man worked before the fall, and after, so it can't be said work itself is a curse, though the level of difficulty was increased as part of the curse.

I can agree that working for the sake of acquiring money out of love for money is evil. My wife had an aunt who worked as a nurse, saving most of her earnings for 60+ years, and living like a pauper, increasingly dependent on all around her, as she never drove a vehicle. She was horribly selfish, even with herself, at 85 years still washing her laundry in the yard in a pot with a scrub board, hanging clothes on a clothes line. I don't see much difference in a wealthy person having servants, living a life of ease, enjoying the best of everything, while knowing relatives are in dire need, not helping.

Jesus was a carpenter's son. That meant he helped his dad make products for sale, to earn money for various purposes. They had taxes to pay. It was an honorable pursuit those days. Jesus grew up benefitting from his dad's labor.

Some of the apostles were fishermen, a very hard trade to live by. They left that to follow Jesus, who met their needs, none having to work for money.
Luke 9:2-4 (KJV)
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.

Miracles abounded, such a Peter obeying Jesus to wet a hook, catch the first fish, take the coin from it's mouth, enough to pay the temple tax for both of them
But, I repeat from an older post, when Jesus was about to depart this world, we find this:
Luke 22:35-38 (KJV)
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

To live that way required money, even selling one's outer garment. Moeny goes into a purse. Someone had to aquire money. It was illegal to steal it, but proper to earn it, always has been. The precept of gaining wealth is a power given by God for the purpose of establishing His Kingdom on earth.
Deuteronomy 8:17-18 (KJV)
17 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

God has not repented of that.

Money represents one's labor, or sale of an idea, backed by the power to get it. Money doesn't in itself represent evil, for honest labor is not evil. A drug dealer might have piles of money, but that doesn't make the money evil. It's what is in the heart that comes out that produces evil. Then comes the issue of what one does with money. Solomon spoke highly of honest labor, that a man might enjoy the fruit of his labors. All through the Bible I find support for the idea of working for money. A separate issue is a person's motive for obtaining money, whether for good or evil uses, loving money and the power it represents, or using it to the glory of God.

This is my last comment on this thread, moving on, gotta go work a few hours. Still acquiring bills to pay, an employee to pay, and have grand children coming for the weekend, so need lots more food. We are not going to pray at the fridge for it to fill up. When we dine, we pray thanking God for provisions. He keeps me healthy and alert enuogh to be productive by that power God gives.

 

[Hiswillbedone]

Paul's record is the word of God, perfectly meshing with Jesus' record. I think most of us at TJ realize that by now.

Acts 18:1-3 (KJV)
1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

I can understand why someone has perhaps inherited Grandma's wealthy estate, never worked for a living, preaching that God provides for them, so why don't the rest of us trust Jesus like him, having all his needs met? Such a fool would not have a good understanding of why a person would take up a CRAFT/TRADE like tentmaking. A trade is a line of work a person can make money by the work of their hands, creating products or services to be sold to pay for materials and tools to keep doing that, paying helpers, financing marketing, paying taxes. There in Corinth Paul, characteristicaly joined in working to pay his way among his new friends who shared the same craft/trade. The economy that described is like our own capitalism, and Aquila was equal to our middle class or higher, entrepreneurs.

As I've mentioned previously. Jesus is the Word of God (Revelation 19:13 & John 1:1). The scriptures are clear on this. It is clever to say, "I think most of us at TJ realize that by now, " since this comment creates a division among people. Those of TJ against me.

That point aside, we are going in circles with Paul being a tentmaker. You haven't addressed my points on Paul backsliding when he went to work as a tentmaker and Timothy coming to reprove him. Just sharing the same point again without touching on my points isn't the way to move forward in a discussion, rather it seems to do the opposite.

The part in bold may be a personal assumption on me and my situation? I can assure you that is not the case at all. Even if it was true, what I would have to do is forsake 'Grandma's wealth' and start putting my faith in my Heavenly Father's wealth if I am to keep my stance on what Jesus taught.

If God intended for man to sit back and let Him do all the work, why did He assign the gardening to Adam in Eden? Tending a garden like that is work. The whole idea of seed to harvest revolves around hard work, whether of a farmer or laity. Man worked before the fall, and after, so it can't be said work itself is a curse, though the level of difficulty was increased as part of the curse.

You repeatedly say that I am advocating just 'sitting back' and doing nothing. I've clearly stated in past posts that I do believe we should work. I believe we should work for God instead of money (Matt 6:24). No where in my previous posts have I shared the thought of sitting back doing nothing. This idea of doing nothing if it's not for money seems to be the main theme in your mind (i.e., if someone isn't working for money then they are just low life's doing nothing but 'sitting back'). Again, this just shows me that this is how you viewed Jesus and His disciples.

I can agree that working for the sake of acquiring money out of love for money is evil.

How does someone know whether or not someone loves money? Jesus says, "where your treasure (money, resources, etc) is, there your heart will be also (Matt 6:21). We all must ask ourselves: Where does our money go? Does it go to the poor as Jesus commands (Luke 12:33)? Or does it go buying ourselves and family unnecassary things aside from 'food and clothing' (1 Timothy 6:6-10? Answer this question honestly, and the revelation may be shocking...

Jesus was a carpenter's son. That meant he helped his dad make products for sale, to earn money for various purposes. They had taxes to pay. It was an honorable pursuit those days. Jesus grew up benefitting from his dad's labor.

The only time this part was mentioned in the Bible was when Jesus' enemies said this to disprove Him. Seems fitting to why it is being used now.

Some of the apostles were fishermen, a very hard trade to live by. They left that to follow Jesus, who met their needs, none having to work for money.
Luke 9:2-4 (KJV)
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.

Miracles abounded, such a Peter obeying Jesus to wet a hook, catch the first fish, take the coin from it's mouth, enough to pay the temple tax for both of them

Correct! Jesus met the needs of those that followed Him. This is what I've been saying this whole time. Why is it so hard to believe it can happen now? Jesus is still with us, isn't He? So what changed?

But, I repeat from an older post, when Jesus was about to depart this world, we find this:
Luke 22:35-38 (KJV)
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

This is a repeat of what I quoted earlier. I touched on this point and refuted it in my last post, yet you didn't say anything against what I said. Just repeating it again stating it to be the truth doesn't justify your point. It just poses the question in my mind: If your side is correct, why didn't you refute what I said?

To live that way required money, even selling one's outer garment. Moeny goes into a purse. Someone had to aquire money. It was illegal to steal it, but proper to earn it, always has been. The precept of gaining wealth is a power given by God for the purpose of establishing His Kingdom on earth.

Just a couple of paragraphs before you said the disciples didn't need to work for money to acquire the things that they need. Jesus provided it for them. Does that include money? Jesus provided money for them as well. Probably through people that donated to their ministry. Also, the apostles would have forsook all their wealth to Jesus and He probably used some of that money to help them with the preaching work. Considering they were poor, they would fall in the category of "giving to the poor".

Deuteronomy 8:17-18 (KJV)
17 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

God has not repented of that.

Sorry, life is not about acquiring physical wealth. It never has been. It always was about following God. To say the purpose is to gain physical wealth is a slap in the face to God. Spiritual wealth is what God wants us to have. Jesus is clear how God views rich people in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich young ruler, and in (Luke 6:24).

Money represents one's labor, or sale of an idea, backed by the power to get it. Money doesn't in itself represent evil, for honest labor is not evil. A drug dealer might have piles of money, but that doesn't make the money evil. It's what is in the heart that comes out that produces evil. Then comes the issue of what one does with money. Solomon spoke highly of honest labor, that a man might enjoy the fruit of his labors. All through the Bible I find support for the idea of working for money. A separate issue is a person's motive for obtaining money, whether for good or evil uses, loving money and the power it represents, or using it to the glory of God.

It is interesting you used Solomon as a justification to negate Jesus' perspective on money. How did Solomon end up after attaining so much wealth? Read Ecclesiastes and see how he ends the book.

Also, Jesus mentions Solomon in the same verse about not working for money! Let's see what He has to say: Matthew 6:28-29,"

And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these."

All of Solomons wealth and glory is not better than one Lilly in God's field. Seems like Jesus didn't look highly to Solomon and his supposed "wisdom".

This is my last comment on this thread, moving on, gotta go work a few hours. Still acquiring bills to pay, an employee to pay, and have grand children coming for the weekend, so need lots more food. We are not going to pray at the fridge for it to fill up. When we dine, we pray thanking God for provisions. He keeps me healthy and alert enough to be productive by that power God gives.

I am fine to end it here. As I mentioned before, I am replying for the benefit of those reading. It is fair for people to get the full picture and make a decision from there.

The parts I put in bold in your above post is what I feel is suppose to be a personal dig on me (maybe I am taking it to personally?). Nevertheless, God will judge us on the last days (John 12:48) and I pray we both will meet in the Kingdom of Heaven.

In peace and love

 

[Dovegiven]

I am very familiar with the errors inherent among folks diminishing, even rejecting the gospel according to Paul. I love his preaching, exactly matching that of Jesus. It takes more than natural intellect to recognize that.

1 Timothy 6:9-12 (KJV)
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

SOME rich people do succumb to the snares and traps set for the rich by Satan. Not all succumb to the many issues that arise for mostly unprepared receivers of wealth. That's why earned wealth is the most desired, according to Solomon's wisdom. Many Christians do use riches for the glory of God, and are not jeopardising their eternal reward by being wealthy. If the Church had to rely on the poor, who must guard their assets very closely, and have great difficulty in acting by faith in finances due to limited possibilities of financing, little would be accomplished. Jesus admitte we will have the poor with us always, a duty imposed on those with means. The poor are among least likely to exercise true faith. Thier problem is not having a mindset of replacement of assets given out. To give money representing hard labor causes fear of lack, to be overcomed. It is a greater challenge for the rich to give out of faith when they see the lack of faith giving from the poor, like the poor widow Jesus commended. She gave way more than expected.

The richer Christian has an equal diemma, though not condemned, but warned much. While able to give relatively more, at what point is the giving a matter of adequte faith giving? Where is the hoarding threshhold? That's a question for poor and rich. Business peope have pressures not known to the poor, such as greater tax demands and business liabilities, replacement of facilities subject to wear, and the rising costs of government regulations. That man must be sure enough remains to pay the Social Security half of employee salaries, the state and federal worker's comp part, the supplier's bills, the general overhead costs of doing business, etc. Seeking the proper level of giving and sharing is a much greater burden to hear from the Holy Spirit, while the poor have a welfare net not available to the entrepreneur. If entrepreneurs were not here, about 60% of jobs would not exist.

It's OK to join the poor waiting for God to meet their needs, but wrongfully believing poverty is a blessing of God, thinking they meet any needs of the masses of poor, or live less than a servant of the Most High. They must often minister to the hungry with only words of encouragement to be filled, skipping the offering plate. That's a curse on the poor and the hungry. It's also fine for others to dare receive riches, who have learned how God wants that dispersed. The rich know how to tap the blessings of God, the witty inventions, that have faithfully produced wealth. It takes a lot of faith to build up a profitable business, and much more to acquire wealth, while pleasing God. If it was wrong for man to accumulate wealth of cattle and sheep, gold and silver, lands and children, daring to be like Abraham, then why would God be on the side of blessing the wealth He allows?

Few dare to excel in life.

The synoptic gospel records of Jesus' words is not the full gospel, as Jesus said the Holy Spirit would come to add to the knowledge God intends for us to acquire. He did that through the apostles post His burial and resurrection. If all a person desires is Jesus' words "in red", largely aimed at unbelieving Jews, that is a self limitation outside the will of God.

 

[Hiswillbedone]

There isn't more for me to add to what you have shared. I've addressed multiple times the points you brought up on this post in my previous replies to you. Just reiterating the same points does not make your side right. Especially if it doesn't address my counter arguments.

I've shared that I am replying to you for the sake of those reading this thread in future. I believe I made my side clear, and if people have further questions then they can PM me personally on any part they don't understand.

The last comment I will make is with regards to your last paragraph;

The synoptic gospel records of Jesus' words is not the full gospel

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the END. If the gospel you believe in doesn't start and finish with Jesus, then it makes sense why we are not in unity. My gospel starts and finishes with Jesus. I've quoted this verse many times. The Holy spirit brings to REMEMBRANCE Whatsoever Jesus taught us to do (John 14:26). If the spirit you're following is not leading you back to Jesus and His teachings, then I would question what spirit is leading you.

In peace

 

[Dovegiven]

There isn't more for me to add to what you have shared. I've addressed multiple times the points you brought up on this post in my previous replies to you. Just reiterating the same points does not make your side right. Especially if it doesn't address my counter arguments.

I've shared that I am replying to you for the sake of those reading this thread in future. I believe I made my side clear, and if people have further questions then they can PM me personally on any part they don't understand.

The last comment I will make is with regards to your last paragraph;

Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the END. If the gospel you believe in doesn't start and finish with Jesus, then it makes sense why we are not in unity. My gospel starts and finishes with Jesus. I've quoted this verse many times. The Holy spirit brings to REMEMBRANCE Whatsoever Jesus taught us to do (John 14:26). If the spirit you're following is not leading you back to Jesus and His teachings, then I would question what spirit is leading you.

In peace

No, there is no leaving behind peace in a message like that to be left for future readers. It's a sad day when this kind of post issues from me, but I have to stand up tall on it. But I do find great peace in one of Jesus' last sermons on earth. He was required to go to the Father right away, having much more to teach the apostles that they couldn't handle yet. The Holy Spirit would come to teach them in His stead, and that resulted in the BIBLE, from Genesis to Revelation, and not limited to the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John). Many thanks for the follow-up ministries of the men who penned those 27 letters we call the New Testament (New Covenant). All of it is required for a proper revelation of the will of God with Jesus head of the Body of Christ.

You say you believe Jesus' words. Then chew on this. I will emphasize some key words.
John 16:7-15 (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Readers of this Thread

It appears that this thread has run it course. Both sides of this have been heard from. In honesty there was more that could be added from both sides, but when would enough be enough without actually adding the entirety of the Holy Bible itself.

So, with that being said. I'll be closing this thread.
As I wrote to another not too long ago I close with this verse from the Psalms.

The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Moderator
Nick
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