Wow...you're taking this to new levels.
How do we know we're real? Look at your hand: is it real? etc., etc., Interesting stuff...but I'll leave that for those who care. I've cared about such questions, but settled on the idea that it will remain circular, so I move on. This is the kind of stuff that's academic, at best...in my opinion.
You judge God as cruel, unjust, and sociopathic? God judged men in the same way, which perhaps may have been one reason he "wiped the slate clean" during the flood in Noah's time. That's my op-ed. I really don't know, nor can you. We can only speculate. He probably had an entirely different reason which I may not have the faintest idea of this side of heaven.
But in your speculating, you conclude something of God's character, which may or may not be accurate. You condlude: sociopath!! ...which is yours to conclude, of course. But do you know? Can you?
We are made in His image because we have this idea of some sort of moral code. Where did this moral code come from?
Does a golden retriever have such a moral code? Does a bear know another bear to be "sociopathic", or perhaps, "benevolent" and good?
So, where did man get this? Does this not tell us something of where we came from, or who made us? (whatever you may want to call it?)
What gives you the right to use your own moral code, but deny the God of the Old Testament of His right to use it?
Sure there is, BC. How about the unseen, for starters? And that's no small thing. Again, for me, the complete lack of creativity, wonder, and awe that Atheism carries with it, has given me pause from rationally going there. Perhaps not you.
it would still mean the God of the ancient testament was less than kind, and still is today.
Also, that completely muddles the Trinity thing too
Have you, along the way in life, discovered new part of you? Again, this is only op-ed, at best...but why couldn't it be that God (O.T. God) somehow "discovered" this new part of Himself that He fully developed, in Jesus? Hence, the New Testament, and Jesus? God was seen to have changed His mind a time or two (just like us) in the O.T....so why couldn't He have changed the whole game-plan too?
I don't think it's a muddling of the trinity, but a paridigm-shift in how God utilized it. And awe-inspiring, to say the least.
Part of me believes the Bible, simply because you can't make this stuff up!!
You know a lot, it seems. So much so, that I wonder where you may be teachable? Think how much you've learned from age zero 'til today, and now you know all this? You speak as though you need not know much more from here? At least, with regard to spirituality and belief, it seems. Yet, your curiosity drives you at least enough to come here...for...something...you don't know (yet, something drives you to ask the questions).
That's somewhat wonderous, to me. I like it.
Seems as though you believe in Intelligent Design, though I'm sure, you would deny that. Yet, this so-called evolution "programmed" us to be creative?
Really?
So...this thing you call "evolution" is a smart thing? It had the foresight to program mankind in a certain way, such that he/she would be able to survive throughout time? And if ma-nature doesn't care about you or I in the first place...why would it be interested in your survival enough in the first place, to give you this well-balanced setup to cause you to live?
This thing you call evolution, dare I say, has a name. You can know this thing, through the person of Jesus Christ...and that's about as preachy as I'll ever get.
No...I got it. The first time. And the second. And even in the second time, it's mind-bogglingly humorous.
The idea that God who created all things, "doesn't seem to affect biology", and everything "works perfectly without the aid of God", is almost an unbelievable statement.
You could look at a Model A Ford, and I can guarantee you that you wouldn't see Henry Ford's face in the black passenger door. Also, assuming it's in good shape, it would "work perfectly without Henry Ford". Somehow, in your reasoning, that builds the case in your mind that Henry Ford may not have made it.
If you can't see the inherent irony in that, I'm not sure how I can point it out to you. Of course, from my perspective...that is...
I can understand this. Not too long ago, I nearly thought of myself as an agnostic, because it's very hard to understand or sort-out some of the "bad" (which for me, included the various things God did in the O.T., or the various things that Church has done throughout time, etc).
That is very interesting, if not fantastic, reasoning...for you to then conclude that there was no intelligent designer (sorry, I'm repeating myself from the above) behind it. This "programming" was extremely well thought out, and balanced just right, if you believe your verbiage above. Uncannily so.
How can you believe that some faceless "mother nature" mechanism, who doesn't care one wit about you or your survival, would have done all this, in such a precise way, so you could be here to reason through it the way you are right now?
The 1st Ammendment offers you Freedom-of-Speech. It's part of the reason you can say whatever you want, as can I, openly. It gives you the right to protest, etc, if you want. All I was saying, is that the way you seemed to talk about Christians who you would prefer "not display it publicly" (my paraphrase. I can't remember exactly how you said it) seemed to marginalize the rights afforded all of us under the 1st Ammendment...and I was wondering why you think a Christian's viewpoint should be squelched.
There is SO MUCH that you rely on, every day of your life, that you cannot prove, per se. Anyways...I'll dare to give you the punchline on what will happen 200 years from now with regard to your supposition: God will not be proved then, either.
So, we agree. And what of it? It doesn't change anything about the fact that God may, or may not, exist. You can deny it now, just as you will be able to in 200 or 20,000 years from now.
Your denying it, and my believing it, both require faith. You even used the word in your response. ;-)
You unknowingly praise your Maker. You deny the originator of the things you praise: God. This kind of denial has been done through milleniums of time. The things we praise are but a hint of that which is. You deny this, partially, because you cannot see it. And no, it's not probably...nor will it be. For you, that's more than a dilemma...it simply guides you to not believe God exists.
In that state, you will praise that which God has created around you, perhaps, including yourself.
Becasue all those small-g gods you raise questions about never made a single thing, and most never even existed. Others did exist, but were simply created by mankind. Even satan doesn't have the ability to create a single thing. The best he can do is distort it, or twist things in such a way that would cause us to doubt the origin of things.
Ultimately though, it's a very weak and ineffective attempt on his part, and even the knee of Satan will bow to God in heaven. Just not yet.
Ahh...now there are some real brain-pretzel'izers there, my friend. One conclusion I have come to by asking those questions is that God is a very very big God. Who am I to understand this stuff?
For one, God lives outside time. Yet, he can change His mind on things! ? He is omniscient, and omnipowerful...yet, has allowed (intentionally placed?) the Serpent to enter the Garden of Eden, which He created! ? He knew Eve would have eaten...and didn't stop her! ?
Yes...wrestle with those, my friend. Or don't, as you wish.
But I think in the end (at least, for me) -- the answer is somehow riddled in love, trust, faith, beauty, design, curiosity, wonder, fellowship, and patience...that I cannot fully understand.
Intelligent move? This is not a game, and no one is trying to win/lose here. We all have a choice to make, is what this is about.
Can I just say, that you're trying really hard to work around some of this stuff. You want to, perhaps, show that it's a reasonable thing that Jesus never existed in the first place?
Look...you can believe anything you want to believe. It's the nature of belief. But you're working pretty hard on yours. And, sorry if I'm dense here, but what about Bono's words create this false dichotomy for you? What about it, is false?
Thanks!
I think you're onto something there... I agree.
No, I don't realize that. If the logic of my words led you there, I can assure you that I don't view a Muslim (for example) as an Atheist. I view a Muslim as a person who worships a small-g god, who has never created a thing, has been man-made-up. They are theists, but believe in a god who cannot save them, because he is not God.
As I said earlier, you seem to me to be working fairly hard to maintain your view. You seem to actively build-your-case against the idea of believing in God. As for laziness...no, you're right. Not you. But, you asked for a Christian's view of Atheists, and Atheism...so, for the category, yes, laziness comes to mind.
BC: I share your infuriation, and in no way do I care to diffuse the spotlight of problems such as these, from being pointed towards anything other than the Church! You're right to think of this as a shameful thing, that the Church should repent of. Yes, "religion" can be a protocol that simply allows for the mores/codes/norms of a certain culture to be enforced, and Christendom is no exception here.
