(Refuting) The (Original Sin) Doctrine!!

[Sue D.]

Actually I was speaking of the Ten Commandments , not the entire Levitical laws. Lots of the laws of cleanliness applied to Then and continue to be applicable to Now. And 'we' are told all the people / relationships that we do Not pursue in a romantic way.

Romans 3:23 -- for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Babies have no sense of right and wrong. They cry to express their needs/ food/ tiredness / needing to be held / needing to be changed.

@post 17 -- have you been around babies/ small children? Cousins, taken care of kids in a church nursery. Nieces / nephews? You're assuming a Lot. And living with kids, helping take care of them is a great teacher for adults.

Having children -- raising them -- both subjective And objective truths involved. Taking time to help in church nurseries on a regular basis is a great way to learn about babies' / small children. And getting to know the other parents. How they handle various situations that come up with their own children.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Acts

You said you're married and have 3 children. -- would like to ask You -- when your kids were little --how did They behave. When did Their 'sin nature' show itself.

 

[spiriteddove05]

@spiriteddove05 -- referring you back to your post #9 -- do you have children? I've shared that I have 4 -- in their 30's and 40's. How about you?

btw! you still havnt refuted my OP!!

 

[Brother Paul]

@ Acts

You said you're married and have 3 children. -- would like to ask You -- when your kids were little --how did They behave. When did Their 'sin nature' show itself.

Hi Sue,,,the Lord bless...I know this was not directed to me but I have had 4 and have 5 grands so far (and more experience) and can rightly say that the moment they popped out I knew the "sin nature" was there...could see its potential;the first time they struggle and resist your assistance and help.,,but that does not condemn (I think you would agree)

We are sinners by nature (we all have the ability to freely choose and thus can and soon do willfully choose to disregard the instructions of our parents, leaders, bosses, and God, and decide good and evil for our self,,,like lord of our own life) However we also have the ability to seek forgiveness and change our ways (called repentance). The Lord has made us with this ability (which can come out of contrition and sorrow and even guilt).

Total depravity (as in absolute incapability) is an error (eisegesis not exegesis) which grows out of the Catholic judicial interpretation of Genesis 2:17...if we cannot "go and do it right" or seek Him while He may be found" or repent, then God is a liar and the father of lies (God forbid) which in my opinion is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.

So we are sinners by nature - not because we have yet sinned.

But because this is our nature...which God made...(Satan has no power to create or change our "nature") we WILL all eventually rebel against God (like Satan)...however, whatever age it is, we are not worthy of judgment until we do (Isaiah 59:2)...and even in that, before there is judgment or condemnation for us (which would grieve God) He always (and many times over and over) extends grace and shows the way back which at the end of it is also GRACE. There are so many examples...starting with Cain...

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, Brother Paul -- that is what I'm talking about. That first 'struggle with authority' is the sin nature being seen. Sinners by nature. yes.

 

[Acts2:38]

@ Acts

You said you're married and have 3 children. -- would like to ask You -- when your kids were little --how did They behave. When did Their 'sin nature' show itself.

Strawman.

This avoids the OP fact of "Original Sin" being false. Original sin dictates one is "born" a sinner. The bible states, Exodus 32:32-33; Deuteronomy 24:16; 2 Kings 14:6; 2 Chronicles 25:4; Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20 as contrary to that of "original sin".

I would highly suggest getting more information on my stance with the 3 links I placed previously. More so since it is the basically same information I would give you myself.

 

[Sue D.]

Acts 2:38 -- your passages are verifying my point -- everyone is born with a propensity For sinning. And, there Is the age of accountability -- a child -- everyone needs to be able to understand 'right from wrong'. Babies / young children are under God's grace. God knows our hearts.

The reason I was wondering who has children and who Doesn't is because someone who is around either their own or other people's children a Lot can see naughtiness in them. The Propensity For sinning. And That is because everyone is born with 'original sin'. A person can refute that all they want to. But it's still there.

It's Sunday - let's enjoy this day. It's the Lord's Day.

 

[Enxu]

I agree that it is heresy to say people born in the flesh are sinners from birth. What then, is Jesus also a sinner from birth since He came fully in the flesh? What blasphemy!

Born with a carnal nature and a propensity to sin never meant people are sinners from birth. Jesus took on the carnal nature and was tempted to sin in all ways we are but still remained SINLESS. This fact alone proves no one is BORN a sinner. A person only becomes a sinner after wilfully committing sins in thoughts, words or actions.

 

[Acts2:38]

I am not sure you are following. Please allow me to clarify using your quotes.

everyone is born with a propensity For sinning.

^ This statement above.....

And That is because everyone is born with 'original sin'.

Is completely different from this statement. Situation. Event. Whatever we want to call it, it is different.

The doctrine "original sin" dictates that one is born a sinner.

An infant cannot possibly sin. It is quite impossible. They are free from that accountability and responsibility thereof. They do not have any form of language. No knowledge. It is impossible for them to be born a sinner. This is where those verses come in. Also, I am assuming you have not read the 3 articles/links I placed, otherwise you would not have responded so. Please read them if you have not.

The "original sin" doctrine is false. It cannot be argued logically and using scripture. This is why you have not been able to put up any defense for it thus far.

It's Sunday - let's enjoy this day. It's the Lord's Day.

I enjoy every Lords day Sunday. There is no reason we cant discuss his scriptures even on this day. And if I am coming across as cross, please know that I am not. I am enjoying discussion with all. No ill will here. If I dont catch you before then, you have a great day and into the new year.

 

[Brother Paul]

Strawman.

This avoids the OP fact of "Original Sin" being false. Original sin dictates one is "born" a sinner. The bible states, Exodus 32:32-33; Deuteronomy 24:16; 2 Kings 14:6; 2 Chronicles 25:4; Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20 as contrary to that of "original sin".

I would highly suggest getting more information on my stance with the 3 links I placed previously. More so since it is the basically same information I would give you myself.

Yes the Catholic version of the first sin is an incorrect interpretation and I think Sue agrees. What we saying doe not negate this. And yes Satan was the first...just not the first human to commit sin. Having the sin nature is not the same as yet having committed a sin. And YES each soul is responsible for its own sin (not that of our father's which includes Adam's).

 

[spiriteddove05]

spoken brilliantly by P and E, so many verse I could bring up 2 blow OS!! out of the water but I'm not even gonna bother!! yes I believe dis corrupt teaching is from the catholic church and maybe john calvin too? sue I hope ur learning something here!!

 

[Christ4Ever]

I've been following this with great interest my Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.

It has been an interesting subject to say the least. It goes to the heart of a question I pose to you all.
Remembering that Adam was created perfectly without the proclivity to sin until he did sin. And by doing so he then passed the proclivity to sin, to every succeeding generation of man and what I believe is what we call the Sin Nature.

If that being so, my question: Is it our actual first committed sin or the sin nature inherited from Adam which separates us from God?

An additional thought with the above question is: Does perfection mean that man cannot even have the proclivity to sin and is the reason why when we are Born Again, it is that which we no longer have which in Christ Jesus allows us to not sin?

I also ask consideration of each other in ones responses. We bring to the table of any discussion, preconceived beliefs based upon the teachings we have received, life experiences, as well as the correct understanding by the Holy Spirit in dividing Scripture correctly.

As Brother Paul so mentioned. At times it is eisegesis instead of exegesis that has us fall into misunderstandings of Scriptural Doctrines which are not soundly based. Still, even with erroneous understanding or failure to communicate our words properly (not including the Holy Spirit guidance), we should still be considerate of who our audience is in Christ Jesus and correct gently. No matter how abrasive/obstinate the person may be to us.

With the of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Enxu]

I've been following this with great interest my Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.

It has been an interesting subject to say the least. It goes to the heart of a question I pose to you all.
Remembering that Adam was created perfectly without the proclivity to sin until he did sin. And by doing so he then passed the proclivity to sin, to every succeeding generation of man and what I believe is what we call the Sin Nature.

If that being so, my question: Is it our actual first committed sin or the sin nature inherited from Adam which separates us from God?

An additional thought with the above question is: Does perfection mean that man cannot even have the proclivity to sin and is the reason why when we are Born Again, it is that which we no longer have which in Christ Jesus allows us to not sin?

I also ask consideration of each other in ones responses. We bring to the table of any discussion, preconceived beliefs based upon the teachings we have received, life experiences, as well as the correct understanding by the Holy Spirit in dividing Scripture correctly.

As Brother Paul so mentioned. At times it is eisegesis instead of exegesis that has us fall into misunderstandings of Scriptural Doctrines which are not soundly based. Still, even with erroneous understanding or failure to communicate our words properly (not including the Holy Spirit guidance), we should still be considerate of who our audience is in Christ Jesus and correct gently. No matter how abrasive/obstinate the person may be to us.

With the of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Thanks for those questions. From personal experience I do find that it is through discussion that God reveals to me the correct understanding of Scripture by His Spirit. So I gladly answer your questions. Feel free to examine my answers to see if they line up with the truth.

“Is it our actual first committed sin or the sin nature inherited from Adam which separates us from God?”

From the Scriptures it is shown that the moment Adam sinned there was a spiritual death that occurred and also that there was a propensity to sin in the carnal nature. Jesus Himself taught that unless one is born again of the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. Likewise, both of the OT and the NT teaches that sin separates us from God in terms of Him no longer hearing our prayers or dwelling with us. So the sin committed by Adam disqualified mankind from entering the kingdom of God (unless one is born again), and the subsequent sins committed by each individual separates him/her from an active relationship and fellowship with God. The first separation is a separation from God’s kingdom for all mankind, the second is a separation from a relationship with God for every individual who sins. In conclusion, I would say both results in separation from God.

“Does perfection mean that man cannot even have the proclivity to sin and is the reason why when we are Born Again, it is that which we no longer have which in Christ Jesus allows us to not sin?”

As long as we have not put away this corruptible flesh, there will always be a propensity to sin. What allowed us to stop practising sin is the work Jesus accomplished on the cross through His shed blood. He freed us from the power and bondage of sin when we believe in Him. So under this new condition, we have power from His Spirit to overcome temptations and not sin each time temptations come. As a Christian matures, the actual amount of sinning should logically decrease because true Christians will learn how to overcome temptations over time. It is like learning how to ride a bicycle or a new skill. The practise of resisting temptations should logically make a Christian sin less and less until he/she is so well trained that he achieves perfection in resisting temptations. Once that perfection is reached, a Christian may stop sinning entirely simply because he/she has mastered the art of resisting all kinds of temptations. Meanwhile, there is and will still be a propensity to sin in his nature.

 

[spiriteddove05]

I've been following this with great interest my Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.

It has been an interesting subject to say the least. It goes to the heart of a question I pose to you all.
Remembering that Adam was created perfectly without the proclivity to sin until he did sin. And by doing so he then passed the proclivity to sin, to every succeeding generation of man and what I believe is what we call the Sin Nature.

If that being so, my question: Is it our actual first committed sin or the sin nature inherited from Adam which separates us from God?

An additional thought with the above question is: Does perfection mean that man cannot even have the proclivity to sin and is the reason why when we are Born Again, it is that which we no longer have which in Christ Jesus allows us to not sin?

I also ask consideration of each other in ones responses. We bring to the table of any discussion, preconceived beliefs based upon the teachings we have received, life experiences, as well as the correct understanding by the Holy Spirit in dividing Scripture correctly.

As Brother Paul so mentioned. At times it is eisegesis instead of exegesis that has us fall into misunderstandings of Scriptural Doctrines which are not soundly based. Still, even with erroneous understanding or failure to communicate our words properly (not including the Holy Spirit guidance), we should still be considerate of who our audience is in Christ Jesus and correct gently. No matter how abrasive/obstinate the person may be to us.

With the of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

it is the 1st sin dat condemns us!! if sin was unavoidable God would be unfair 4 punishing us 4 the unavoidable, sin is a choice most certainly, a bank robber doesn't go and rob a bank coz he has a bank robbing nature dat he just cant resist, No! he chooses 2 rob the bank!!

We are born of corrupted flesh tho! yes that's why we are tempted by desires!! romans 7:18 in the flesh dwells no good thing!! dats why the devil tempted jesus in the desert, he ceased his opportunity coz 2 him our flesh looks like dead weight holding us down, like shackles attached 2 us, like a carcase 2 a lion dats why he pursued him, he fort he had him but jesus resisted. james 4:7

And dats why he pursues after us, as long as we have flesh we are a target, which is why even tho! we have flesh we have 2 mortify the deeds of the flesh and walk in the spirit 2 overcome him gal 5:16

And so if in the flesh dwells no good thing!! and the devil sends out his demons 2 us wheres the 1st place their gonna lodge? in the flesh dats why I say Christians have demons coz being BA!! doesn't mean we loose our flesh!! we just get a renewing of the spirit instead, the outer man perish but the inner man is renewed luke 18:27 whats the inner man? its the spirit!! so where does the holy spirit dwell? in our spirit not the flesh!!

 

[Acts2:38]

Yes the Catholic version of the first sin is an incorrect interpretation and I think Sue agrees.

Greetings,

If you read post #27 and my following response, it might clear up what you think here. She agrees with both original sin and this "sin nature" so to speak.

The OP is not stating anything about people who can sin Romans 3:23.

The OP is stating that "Original sin" (you are born a sinner) is false. Anything else is strawman. Through scripture, it is quite obvious that original sin is false. Of which you state you agree.

And yes Satan was the first...just not the first human to commit sin.

Even though this is not part of the OP discussion, it must still be addressed. I would disagree here. Scripture clearly states:

Romans 5:12

Isaiah 14:12-14

I dont see any scripture that proves or implies that satan sinned first. However Isaiah, combined with other scripture, is strong evidence contrary to your claim. Though, and I am sure you would agree, this should have no bearing on salvation as the false doctrine of OS.

I think you and I are both on the same page except for your idea on satan being the first. Though, that is not this OP's discussion.

 

[spiriteddove05]

So if it wasn't satan who sinned 1st who was it then? Luke 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven!! and the heavens were created on the 2nd day and the earth on the 4th day!! and satan was already kicked out of heaven when he 1st came 2 adam and eve!! not 2 mention john 8:44.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Enxu,
Thank-you for your thoughtful response. It leads me to ask another question to further clarify my understanding of what I agree with you on.

“Is it our actual first committed sin or the sin nature inherited from Adam which separates us from God?”

From the Scriptures it is shown that the moment Adam sinned there was a spiritual death that occurred and also that there was a propensity to sin in the carnal nature. Jesus Himself taught that unless one is born again of the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. Likewise, both of the OT and the NT teaches that sin separates us from God in terms of Him no longer hearing our prayers or dwelling with us. So the sin committed by Adam disqualified mankind from entering the kingdom of God (unless one is born again), and the subsequent sins committed by each individual separates him/her from an active relationship and fellowship with God. The first separation is a separation from God’s kingdom for all mankind, the second is a separation from a relationship with God for every individual who sins. In conclusion, I would say both results in separation from God.

So, were it possible, which I do not believe it so. A person could be without sin, but still not enter the Kingdom of God. Unless by the rejection of Jesus it would be as one who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit and so, has sinned according to Scripture.

“Does perfection mean that man cannot even have the proclivity to sin and is the reason why when we are Born Again, it is that which we no longer have which in Christ Jesus allows us to not sin?”

As long as we have not put away this corruptible flesh, there will always be a propensity to sin. What allowed us to stop practising sin is the work Jesus accomplished on the cross through His shed blood. He freed us from the power and bondage of sin when we believe in Him. So under this new condition, we have power from His Spirit to overcome temptations and not sin each time temptations come. As a Christian matures, the actual amount of sinning should logically decrease because true Christians will learn how to overcome temptations over time. It is like learning how to ride a bicycle or a new skill. The practise of resisting temptations should logically make a Christian sin less and less until he/she is so well trained that he achieves perfection in resisting temptations. Once that perfection is reached, a Christian may stop sinning entirely simply because he/she has mastered the art of resisting all kinds of temptations. Meanwhile, there is and will still be a propensity to sin in his nature.

This is what I also believe, but your answer brought another question to mind, which was by bringing to light the "corruptible flesh".

So, do you also believe that this propensity to sin (not to actually commit sin) in this corruptible flesh will continue to be the Cross we bare until which time we receive the promise given to us of Glorified Bodies (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:42)?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Enxu]

Dear Enxu,
Thank-you for your thoughtful response. It leads me to ask another question to further clarify my understanding of what I agree with you on.



So, were it possible, which I do not believe it so. A person could be without sin, but still not enter the Kingdom of God. Unless by the rejection of Jesus it would be as one who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit and so, has sinned according to Scripture.



This is what I also believe, but your answer brought another question to mind, which was by bringing to light the "corruptible flesh".

So, do you also believe that this propensity to sin (not to actually commit sin) in this corruptible flesh will continue to be the Cross we bare until which time we receive the promise given to us of Glorified Bodies (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:42)?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

“So, were it possible, which I do not believe it so. A person could be without sin, but still not enter the Kingdom of God. Unless by the rejection of Jesus it would be as one who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit and so, has sinned according to Scripture.”

I believe this is not possible. Firstly, according to Scriptures’ prophecy, there is not one righteous, except the sinless Jesus. (Psalm 53, Romans 3:10) Every single person who has ever walked the earth for a good deal of time has fallen short of the grace of God, and therefore is in need of repentance of sin committed somewhere in their lives. So it is already impossible for anyone to be without sin, unless they died an infant or a child. By rejecting Jesus, they also reject the only propitiation for sin, which means they remain spiritually dead (ie. not born again). According to Scriptures, they are already condemned (John 3:18), because their sin never gets blotted out due to their unbelief. So it is not possible for a person to be without sin, and even more impossible for such a person to enter the kingdom of God should they choose to reject Jesus.

“So, do you also believe that this propensity to sin (not to actually commit sin) in this corruptible flesh will continue to be the Cross we bare until which time we receive the promise given to us of Glorified Bodies (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:42)?”

Yes, this is exactly why Jesus commanded us to deny ourselves take up our crosses and follow Him. (Matthew 16:14). Take up the cross for what purpose? To crucify the flesh with its passions and desires (Galatians 5:24). To put to death the deeds of the flesh. (Romans 8:13) This is the work accomplished of the cross.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @spiriteddove05
You have me curious Brother, and not as an insult, but just to satisfy my curiosity. Why in your response to me in Post #34 you use broken grammar while in your Post #36 to another it appears quite clear?

Now to the contents of your post. Thank-you for responding brother to my inquiry. Your response does promote a question/s.

it is the 1st sin dat condemns us!! if sin was unavoidable God would be unfair 4 punishing us 4 the unavoidable, sin is a choice most certainly, a bank robber doesn't go and rob a bank coz he has a bank robbing nature dat he just cant resist, No! he chooses 2 rob the bank!!

We are born of corrupted flesh tho! yes that's why we are tempted by desires!! romans 7:18 in the flesh dwells no good thing!! dats why the devil tempted jesus in the desert, he ceased his opportunity coz 2 him our flesh looks like dead weight holding us down, like shackles attached 2 us, like a carcase 2 a lion dats why he pursued him, he fort he had him but jesus resisted. james 4:7

And dats why he pursues after us, as long as we have flesh we are a target, which is why even tho! we have flesh we have 2 mortify the deeds of the flesh and walk in the spirit 2 overcome him gal 5:16

And so if in the flesh dwells no good thing!! and the devil sends out his demons 2 us wheres the 1st place their gonna lodge? in the flesh dats why I say Christians have demons coz being BA!! doesn't mean we loose our flesh!! we just get a renewing of the spirit instead, the outer man perish but the inner man is renewed luke 18:27 whats the inner man? its the spirit!! so where does the holy spirit dwell? in our spirit not the flesh!!

If the 1st sin is that which condemns us, and your reasoning is that and I quote "God would be unfair 4 punishing us 4 the unavoidable" then what you are saying is that the propensity to sin, does not mean one will commit sin, and makes it possible though not probable for one to live a life without ever having committed a sin.

I also pose to you for your consideration what I mentioned to Brother Enxu in my post to him.

A person could be without sin, but still not enter the Kingdom of God. Unless by the rejection of Jesus it would be as one who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit and so, has sinned according to Scripture.

Now I have another question for you since you also have included the "corrupted flesh". I guess I should include also include Brother @Enxu with this question, so I'll join him to this post and now ask my question.

What is it that makes our flesh corrupted and is it from birth? (NEVERMIND) I do believe that you answered this by your last paragraph. I have a couple of questions to flesh out your reasoning on that topic. However, if you Brother Enxu would care to reply to this one, it would be greatly appreciated.

Now Brother spiriteddove05. This is a bit off topic, but I believe necessary for understanding what you have communicated in this thread.

Do you believe that the demons that reside in the flesh of man is what makes the flesh corrupted or are the affects of their residence something else entirely? And another question this brings to my mind which is appropriate to the topic. Does the possession by demons occur at birth?

There are many more questions which your last paragraph bring to mind, but so that we don't go too far afield from the original topic. I'll leave it here.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Enxu]

Dear @spiriteddove05
You have me curious Brother, and not as an insult, but just to satisfy my curiosity. Why in your response to me in Post #34 you use broken grammar while in your Post #36 to another it appears quite clear?

Now to the contents of your post. Thank-you for responding brother to my inquiry. Your response does promote a question/s.



If the 1st sin is that which condemns us, and your reasoning is that and I quote "God would be unfair 4 punishing us 4 the unavoidable" then what you are saying is that the propensity to sin, does not mean one will commit sin, and makes it possible though not probable for one to live a life without ever having committed a sin.

I also pose to you for your consideration what I mentioned to Brother Enxu in my post to him.

A person could be without sin, but still not enter the Kingdom of God. Unless by the rejection of Jesus it would be as one who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit and so, has sinned according to Scripture.

Now I have another question for you since you also have included the "corrupted flesh". I guess I should include also include Brother @Enxu with this question, so I'll join him to this post and now ask my question.

What is it that makes our flesh corrupted and is it from birth? (NEVERMIND) I do believe that you answered this by your last paragraph. I have a couple of questions to flesh out your reasoning on that topic. However, if you Brother Enxu would care to reply to this one, it would be greatly appreciated.

Now Brother spiriteddove05. This is a bit off topic, but I believe necessary for understanding what you have communicated in this thread.

Do you believe that the demons that reside in the flesh of man is what makes the flesh corrupted or are the affects of their residence something else entirely? And another question this brings to my mind which is appropriate to the topic. Does the possession by demons occur at birth?

There are many more questions which your last paragraph bring to mind, but so that we don't go too far afield from the original topic. I'll leave it here.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

I am a sister actually. Anyway, I realised I had a typo last post. It should have been Matthew 16:24 which I quoted.

“What is it that makes our flesh corrupted and is it from birth?”

When Adam sinned by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the flesh already became corrupted. This corruption is the propensity to sin. Yes, it is from birth.