Revelation 7

[Mark of Faith]

I am reading through Revelation at present, not so much to try and figure out what's happening in world events, but rather to gain a clearer understanding of the bigger picture. I am finding it very beneficial.

One primary impression that one gains from Revelation is that whatever happens, God is in control.

There are some hard and perhaps scary pictures painted in Revelation, yet time and again it brings us back to God's Glory, and even the angels who destroy cannot go further than what God allows.

In Revelation Chapter 7, we see the destroying angels being held back as God "seals" His chosen people. It gives a list of 144,000 people that are sealed: 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel.

Many commentators read this as being a literal reference to 144,000 Jews who will be God's representatives in the Great Tribulation. (Such teaching is usually accompanied by a teaching that the Church will not be present at that time, having been "raptured" and removed from the earth.)
My interpretation, however, is more akin to that of the Church for the most part of the previous centuries, before the "rapture" movement began.

Having looked at the Olivet discourse, which gives the order of events, the "rapture" takes place immediately after a time of great tribulation. The Book of Revelation is not necessarily an orderly account (i.e. a story to be read as always moving forward in time). Revelation is a prophetic book, and is in many respects similar to the Old Testament prophetic books. Often, in Biblical prophetic books, events are referred to in a early section, yet in the realm of time actually happen at a later date. An example is the reference in Isaiah 9 to the coming of Christ. Yet later in Isaiah, the prophet refers to the Captivity. In history (which was future for Isaiah) the Captivity occurred roughly 400 years before the coming of Christ.

So, prophetic books are not in historical order.

So, looking at Rev 7, we see that a great host of people, from all nations, tribes and tongues, give worship in heaven. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation." It is reasonable to assume that these saints are the very same as referred to as the 144,000. The 144,000 is representative of the great host of believers. Israel, in the New Testament, has two meanings: the actual Jewish people, and those that have been brought near to God and are now partakers in God's promises (the Church).

Revelation 7 is a wonderful illustration of how God protects and keeps His people, even in times of great trial, and the wonderful blessing and freedom promised to His people in Eternity.

"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." - Rev 7:17.

God bless,
Mark.

(This was originally posted in my Rabel site).

 

[MightyAngel1]

I am reading through Revelation at present, not so much to try and figure out what's happening in world events, but rather to gain a clearer understanding of the bigger picture. I am finding it very beneficial.

One primary impression that one gains from Revelation is that whatever happens, God is in control.

Howdy Mark of Faith!

God is in control? So, You believe that God kills a lot of people? In Revelation 6 alone, God kills 1/4 of the worlds population. Is that right? Have I got you correctly understood?

MOF--There are some hard and perhaps scary pictures painted in Revelation, yet time and again it brings us back to God's Glory, and even the angels who destroy cannot go further than what God allows.

God allows lots of things. He does not push Himself on anyone.

MOF--In Revelation Chapter 7, we see the destroying angels being held back as God "seals" His chosen people. It gives a list of 144,000 people that are sealed: 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel.

That is correct.

MOF--Many commentators read this as being a literal reference to 144,000 Jews who will be God's representatives in the Great Tribulation. (Such teaching is usually accompanied by a teaching that the Church will not be present at that time, having been "raptured" and removed from the earth.)

My take is You don't accept that teaching.

MOF--My interpretation,

Hmmm...RED FLAG!!!!! Shouldn't You say, The Holy Spirit's interpretation unveiled to you?

MOF--however, is more akin to that of the Church for the most part of the previous centuries, before the "rapture" movement began.

Who started the Rapture movement? Wasn't God Himself? Answer: Yes!

MOF--Having looked at the Olivet discourse, which gives the order of events, the "rapture" takes place immediately after a time of great tribulation.

There is no rapture here. The Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth are gathered according to the Law of God. The Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth IS NOT the Christian Church.

MOF--The Book of Revelation is not necessarily an orderly account (i.e. a story to be read as always moving forward in time).

Which literally means that God is not a God of Order. I don't buy that one bit.

MOF--Revelation is a prophetic book, and is in many respects similar to the Old Testament prophetic books. Often, in Biblical prophetic books, events are referred to in a early section, yet in the realm of time actually happen at a later date. An example is the reference in Isaiah 9 to the coming of Christ. Yet later in Isaiah, the prophet refers to the Captivity. In history (which was future for Isaiah) the Captivity occurred roughly 400 years before the coming of Christ.

So, prophetic books are not in historical order.

Prophetic Books are in the Order God has ordained.

MOF--So, looking at Rev 7, we see that a great host of people, from all nations, tribes and tongues, give worship in heaven. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation." It is reasonable to assume that these saints are the very same as referred to as the 144,000.

It is reasonable to assume? When has God ever Commanded anyone to assume?

MOF--The 144,000 is representative of the great host of believers. Israel, in the New Testament, has two meanings: the actual Jewish people, and those that have been brought near to God and are now partakers in God's promises (the Church).

No. Israel only has one meaning according to God. Israel means Jacob. And, For your information, The Church is not called in Jacob. Here are 2 formulas for you...

1) Spirit-Jew accepts Jesus Christ becomes Spiritual Jew with the heart of Christ.

2) Spirit-Gentile accepts Jesus Christ becomes Spiritual Gentile with the heart of Christ.

Which formula indicates Spiritual Israel? The Christian Church is Spiritual Israel is a false teaching according to the Law of God. Would you like for me to prove this to you using the Holy Word of God?

MOF--Revelation 7 is a wonderful illustration of how God protects and keeps His people, even in times of great trial, and the wonderful blessing and freedom promised to His people in Eternity.

Wait a minute. You just said earlier that God is in control. And, I asked that many people die who God kills because God is in control? Now, You say that God protects His people? 2/3 of God's People die because God is in control. You are very confusing here.

MOF--"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." - Rev 7:17.

Do you realize how many Christians interpret this verse a different way?

Have a nice Lord's Day!

 

[Mark of Faith]

Thank you for your input.

God bless,
Mark.

 

[Diamondlight]

One primary impression that one gains from Revelation is that whatever happens, God is in control.

I'm glad someone is Mark!

Revelation is indeed a captivating book and i have listened to and read a variety of interpretations, often quite enlightening, some conflicting, tackling the most interesting parts (although it's all very interesting) I try and remember, even where people disagree, to hold it all as food for thought, rather than to end up in a pickle over details. This helps me immensely!

You seem to have a good grasp of dedicated study.

 

[Mark of Faith]

I'm glad someone is Mark!

Revelation is indeed a captivating book and i have listened to and read a variety of interpretations, often quite enlightening, some conflicting, tackling the most interesting parts (although it's all very interesting) I try and remember, even where people disagree, to hold it all as food for thought, rather than to end up in a pickle over details. This helps me immensely!

You seem to have a good grasp of dedicated study.

Thank you Diamondlight.

I think it's a very difficult matter to get one's head around how God can be Sovereign and Almighty, yet still most horrendous events happen. I am sure that a loving God who is Sovereign could very well have ended the world many years ago. I'm glad He waited until I became saved. I am glad He is waiting until others are saved.

The issue of "Sovereign Lord" allowing, and Yes, even using, terrible events, is an issue that this poor child cannot comprehend.

Mark.

 

[jiggyfly]

It is reasonable to assume? When has God ever Commanded anyone to assume?

Are you saying that you never assume anything concerning God or the scriptures?

 

[Mark of Faith]

I think MightyAngel made an interesting point concerning Israel, which I want to pick up on.

Certainly, Gentiles should not commit the blasphemy of saying they are Jews. Scripture is quite clear that Gentiles are not the people to whom the Old Testament was entrusted.

However, with the coming of Christ, the Gentiles ("peoples", "nations") have become heirs of the promises of God, and have "been brought near" by the blood of Christ.
We have been born-again, adopted as sons of God, part of His family. Paul describes our (born-again Gentiles) state as being "children of Abraham" or "daughters of Sarah".

In addition, in Genesis 28, Jacob (Israel) is blessed to have his numbers increase until he becomes a "community of peoples", a reference I take to mean the Church.

God bless,
Mark.

 

[ChildrenOfLight]

I think MightyAngel made an interesting point concerning Israel, which I want to pick up on.

Certainly, Gentiles should not commit the blasphemy of saying they are Jews. Scripture is quite clear that Gentiles are not the people to whom the Old Testament was entrusted.

However, with the coming of Christ, the Gentiles ("peoples", "nations") have become heirs of the promises of God, and have "been brought near" by the blood of Christ.
We have been born-again, adopted as sons of God, part of His family. Paul describes our (born-again Gentiles) state as being "children of Abraham" or "daughters of Sarah".

In addition, in Genesis 28, Jacob (Israel) is blessed to have his numbers increase until he becomes a "community of peoples", a reference I take to mean the Church.

God bless,
Mark.

I think Mighty Angel kind-of pounced on you too hardcore style lol, but anyways, Revelation is HEAVY stuff, and I'm hoping these things all occur within our lifetimes, and that we're all found up in the clouds and happily praising God before our heavenly fates!

Just wanted to say this:

When I first completed the New Testament and finished Revelation for I believe the first time, I was working overnight shift, and walked outside after finishing, and looked up, and thought about Jesus, and right in mid-vision lookin up BAM a shooting star, right across mid sight...

I just thought Wowwwwwww, amazingggggg.

i was straight-up communicated to, and I'm still lowsy at following the Lord's way.

well, good luck on your studies! God bless!

-nick

 

[MightyAngel1]

Are you saying that you never assume anything concerning God or the scriptures?

Howdy jiggyfly!

When the Law of God is studied and understood, There is NO ROOM for assuming. God does not give you that exit from the Truth. So, Who gives you this exit?

Have a nice day!

 

[MightyAngel1]

I think MightyAngel made an interesting point concerning Israel, which I want to pick up on.

Certainly, Gentiles should not commit the blasphemy of saying they are Jews. Scripture is quite clear that Gentiles are not the people to whom the Old Testament was entrusted.

However, with the coming of Christ, the Gentiles ("peoples", "nations") have become heirs of the promises of God, and have "been brought near" by the blood of Christ.
We have been born-again, adopted as sons of God, part of His family. Paul describes our (born-again Gentiles) state as being "children of Abraham" or "daughters of Sarah".

In addition, in Genesis 28, Jacob (Israel) is blessed to have his numbers increase until he becomes a "community of peoples", a reference I take to mean the Church.

God bless,
Mark.

Howdy Mark!

Well, Here is your dilemma. You have Jacob who becomes a "community of peoples" you take to mean the Church?

Where in the New Testament does the Bible teach that the Christian Church is called in Jacob? This is what you have to show. Making this point with no Scripture reference does not make a belief or teaching true.

Jacob is Jewish. The Christian Church is Gentile. And, Yes, The Christian Church is no longer a stranger or foreigner, but rather, we are fellow citizens with the saints in the Spiritual Kingdom of God.

Think about what I am saying this way. You have One town. You have 2 families living in this town. You are in one of the families. Since both families live in this town and are fellow citizens of each other in this town, Do you come part of the other family?

Answer: Nope. You do not. You remain a distinct family in this town. Everybody knows this.

But, When it comes to the Bible. This concept of truth is thrown out the window. Makes you wonder why does it not? The Christian Church is called in one of the following...

1) Abraham
2) Isaac
3) Jacob

Remember, There is only one correct answer. The second question is looking at the above choices...Who is Jesus Christ called in? Remember, There is only one correct answer.

And, The Answer for the Christian Church and the Answer for Christ is not the same answer according to Scripture.

Have a nice day!

 

[cman77]

wow you just seem to have all he answers Mighty Angel

 

[jiggyfly]

Howdy jiggyfly!

When the Law of God is studied and understood, There is NO ROOM for assuming. God does not give you that exit from the Truth. So, Who gives you this exit?

Have a nice day!

Please elaborate, it seems you are suggesting that understand everything and assume nothing.

 

[jiggyfly]

wow you just seem to have all he answers Mighty Angel

Don't he though.

I was thinking the same thing Cman.:shade:

 

[Mark of Faith]

Please elaborate, it seems you are suggesting that understand everything and assume nothing.

With a lack of omniscience I do not hope to understand everything. Hence, certain assertions must be based on assumption. NOT presumption, but assumption based on careful and prayerful reading of the Word.

(On the matter of Spiritual Israel as distinct from Ethnic Israel, I am not responding any further at present. I am studying this and do not yet feel equipped to make any comment further than I have already.)

"Love bears all."

God bless,
Mark.

 

[MightyAngel1]

wow you just seem to have all he answers Mighty Angel

Howdy cman77!

No, I don't have all of the answers. I just know Who does and where the answers are located. The Answers are found in the Bible. The Majority of them in the Old Testament. When you study the Law of God, You will understand the New Testament.

Do you see? The Law of God is where the answers are found. Many Christians, in my honest opinion, run from the Law of God. Would you like to know why?

They are taught to in Christian Churches all over this world. They are taught to create their own rules for Scripture interpretation. For an example, Many Christians use the Allegorical Method of Scripture interpretation. This is why many Christians assume. They are taught to.

This is the reason why we have so many different doctrines taught in the Christian Church today. Nearly 95 % of all Christians in the World today cannot tell you what the 1st Doctrine of Christ is.

And, This Doctrine is found in the New Testament which comes from the Old Testament. Christ gave us 3 Doctrines in the New Testament.

Have a nice day!

 

[MightyAngel1]

Please elaborate, it seems you are suggesting that understand everything and assume nothing.

Howdy jiggyfly!

Elaborate? Ok. I asked...Where does God ever command any believer to assume? None of you have answered this question. Fascinating isn't.

For starters, Why don't you study Jeremiah 9:23-24. Then, Study Isaiah 55:10-11. After this study, Study Joshua 24:15 and Psalm 19:7-8. All of these passages of Scripture will show you that God does not give us any room for assumption. Neither does Jesus Christ.

For me, These men, Joshua, King David, Jeremiah, and Isaiah were brilliant men in my honest opinion. They knew God and they heard Him speak. When you call unto God, He will answer you and show you great and mighty things thou knowest not. Jeremiah 33:3.

Have a nice day!

 

[MightyAngel1]

With a lack of omniscience I do not hope to understand everything.

Howdy Mark of Faith!

With God's Wisdom, You can. However, There is a condition. You must develop a desire for God's Wisdom. You must seek God's Wisdom.

Mark of Faith--Hence, certain assertions must be based on assumption.

Would you assume that Christ saved you? Would you assume that Christ paid the sin debt of the World? Would you assume that Christ is coming back again?

Salvation is a Law of God. See Romans 8:2. Salvation is the Law of the Spirit of life. The Bible says...Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the World. Spoken by John the Baptist when he saw Jesus Christ. See John 1:29.

Jesus Christ is returning again twice. Once for the Rapture and Once to set up His Earthly Kingdom. See John Chapter 20. The Bible clearly shows this in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Acts 15:16, and Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 19:11-15 (Revelation 20:4). These 6 verses will be a fulfillment of what Jesus Christ said He would do in Matthew 5:17-18. These 6 verses are based on the Law of God.

If a believer would not assume that Christ has saved them, would not assume that Christ paid the sin debt of the world, and would not assume that Christ is coming back again, but rather,...

Believe in their heart that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection set them free from the Law of Sin and death, When they trust Him and believe in Him, Then this question must be asked...

Why assume who Spiritual Israel is? God gives us the answer 3x in Scripture. Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7, and Hebrews 11:18. Spiritual Israel is Abraham's seed called in Isaac. This is a Commandment of God, i.e. Law of God.

The Glorious Church of Jesus Christ IS NOT called in Isaac. The Christian Church is of the Faith of Abraham. Hence, The Christian Church is the Faith Seed of Abraham. Not Isaac. See Galatians 3:7, Acts 15:14, and Ephesians 5:27.

Therefore, We have the following information from the Holy Word of God...

Genesis 15:4-5--Abraham's Seed multiplied as the stars of the Heaven--is the Glorious Church of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. See Ephesians 5:27, Acts 15:14, and Galatians 3:7.

Genesis 26:4--Isaac's Seed multiplied as the stars of the Heaven--is Spiritual Israel in the New Testament. See Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7, Hebrews 11:18, Acts 2, and Revelation 14:12.

Abraham and Isaac are Father and Son in the Old Testament. Hence, The Father and Son Concept of the Law of God realized in the New Testament. As You can clearly see, There is no room for assumption. God has already given us the answers.

So, What is the benefit for anyone to assume? There is no benefit whatsoever when God has already given to us the answers.

Genesis 28:14--Jacob's Seed multiplied as the dust of the earth--is Ethnic Israel in the New Testament who are currently blinded by God. See Romans 11:8.

Mark of Faith--(On the matter of Spiritual Israel as distinct from Ethnic Israel, I am not responding any further at present. I am studying this and do not yet feel equipped to make any comment further than I have already.)

I encourage you to continue studying the Holy Word of God. The Answers you seek are found in the Law of God.

Have a nice day!

 

[Mark of Faith]

MA1:

God is in control? So, You believe that God kills a lot of people? In Revelation 6 alone, God kills 1/4 of the worlds population. Is that right? Have I got you correctly understood?

Scripture says: "The LORD God Almighty." "The Sovereign LORD".

Scripture says: "God is love." "The Lord shall repay the deeds of the wicked." "The just shall live by faith."

MA1:

The Christian Church is Gentile

Paul, Peter, John, James, Stephen, Mark, Barnabas, Matthew, Jude, Timothy....Jewish.

Scripture says: "Where there is neither Jew nor Greek." "The two have been made one."

MA1:

Think about what I am saying this way. You have One town. You have 2 families living in this town. You are in one of the families. Since both families live in this town and are fellow citizens of each other in this town, Do you come part of the other family?

Answer: Nope. You do not. You remain a distinct family in this town. Everybody knows this.

Scripture says: "We have been adopted as sons." "We are heirs, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark of Faith
With a lack of omniscience I do not hope to understand everything.

Originally posted by MA1:
Howdy Mark of Faith!

With God's Wisdom, You can.

Scripture says: "We only know in part."

Need I go on?
I am not trying to tear down. I am merely concerned that some of what has been posted is quite persuasive, so felt that bringing to light is safe for some.

God bless,
Mark.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Howdy Mark of Faith!

You say quote Scripture says: "We know only in part." You continue to say quote...Need I go on?EOQ

Christians today use that verse as a crutch to not know and understand God. God says that we can know and understand Him. Jeremiah 9:24.

Jeremiah 9:24 But Let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.

God says that you can know and understand Him. For Christians who choose to know only in part, God waits for you to come to Him and draw closer to Him and understand His ways and His Law. And, God continues to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait. Only a few Christians come. Only a few.

You also said quote...With a lack of omniscience, You hope not to understand everything.EOQ

Do you realize the seed that you planted? Remember Galatians 6:7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Since your hope is not to understand everything, That is exactly what you will reap. You will not understand everything there is to know about God because that is your hope.

For me, My hope is TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND everything there is to know and understand about God. I seek God, His Wisdom, and His Kingdom and Righteousness. This is why I study the Law of God. And, God has blessed me.

MOF--I am not trying to tear down. I am merely concerned that some of what has been posted is quite persuasive, so felt that bringing to light is safe for some.

God bless,
Mark.

The Holy Word of God is always persuasive. Because, The Holy Word of God is TRUTH! See John 17:17b.

Have a nice day!

 

[MightyAngel1]

Howdy Mark of Faith!

MA1:The Christian Church is Gentile

Mark of Faith--Paul, Peter, John, James, Stephen, Mark, Barnabas, Matthew, Jude, Timothy....Jewish.

My response--And, They will always be Jewish. For Eternity. For a Jew to believe in Jesus Christ does not change their spiritual ethnicity. This very same Law holds true for the Gentile believer in Christ.

Mark of Faith--Scripture says: "Where there is neither Jew nor Greek." "The two have been made one."

My response--The Scripture also says that there is neither male nor female. Then Right now, according to Scripture, You are no longer a male. Since You are no longer a male, Then, What are you?

MA1:Think about what I am saying this way. You have one town. You have 2 families in this town. You are in one of the families. Since both families live in this town, and are fellow citizens of each other in this town, Do you come part of the other family?

Answer--Nope. You do not. You remain a distinct family in this town. Everybody knows this.

Mark of Faith--Scripture says: "We have been adopted as sons." "We are heirs, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ."

My response--Yes, We have been adopted as sons. However, Adoption does not change the adopted persons bloodline. The Adopted persons bloodline remains distinct and different from the family that adopted him. Adoption does not change the bloodline nor does adoption change the spiritual nature of an adoptee.

Yes, The Gentiles are heirs with God, and coheirs with Christ. The Jews are coheirs with God, and heirs with Christ. Do you see this distinction?

We have been adopted into the family of God. Gods Family are the believing Jews in Christ of the Nation of Israel. The Believing Jews in the New Testament are the Wife of God. The Believing Gentiles in Christ in the New Testament are the Bride of Christ. Hence, The Sussomos body of the New Testament. Sussomos is Greek which means joint body. Ephesians 3:6.

And, Abraham and Isaac are Father and Son. The Wife of God is called in Isaac. The Bride of Christ is called in Abraham. Fascinating isnt. Therefore, Abraham and Isaac cannot ever be the very same person. We will always be a Sussomos family. A Joint Family by adoption. See Hebrews 12:23.

The Bride of Christ will always be fellow citizens with the Wife of God in the Spiritual Kingdom of God on earth and in Heaven. And, This Bible Fact will never change. Even after the Marriage of the Lamb. Ephesians 2:19.

Have a nice day!