Revelation 7

[MightyAngel1]

MA1:God is in control? So, You believe that God kills a lot of people? In Revelation 6 alone, God kills one fourth of the worlds population. Is that right? Have I got you correctly understood?

Mark of Faith--Scripture says: "The LORD God Almighty." "The Sovereign LORD".

Scripture says: "God is love." "The Lord shall repay the deeds of the wicked." "The just shall live by faith." EOQ

Howdy Mark of Faith!

Scripture also says...2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Scripture also says...John 10:10a The thief cometh not, but for to steal, kill, and destroy:

The god of this world is satan. And, He comes against Christians to steal, kill, and destroy their faith in Jesus Christ in more ways than one. See Ephesians 6:11. Satan is the god of this world, because this world was given to him. See Luke 4:6.

You said quote...God is Love. EOQ Yes, God is Love. And, The Bible says that one fourth of the worlds population dies in Revelation 6:8.

You also said that God is control. I have pointed out in Scripture that satan is the god of this world who steals, kills, and destroys believers in Christ. Since You say that God is in control, How does Love kill?

Have a nice day!

 

[cman77]

God allows lots of things. He does not push Himself on anyone.

sorry this is a qoute from while back, but i have to ask: how does this fit into the story of pauls conversion

 

[cman77]

Howdy Mark of Faith!

Scripture also says...2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Scripture also says...John 10:10a The thief cometh not, but for to steal, kill, and destroy:

The god of this world is satan. And, He comes against Christians to steal, kill, and destroy their faith in Jesus Christ in more ways than one. See Ephesians 6:11. Satan is the god of this world, because this world was given to him. See Luke 4:6.

You said quote...God is Love. EOQ Yes, God is Love. And, The Bible says that one fourth of the worlds population dies in Revelation 6:8.

You also said that God is control. I have pointed out in Scripture that satan is the god of this world who steals, kills, and destroys believers in Christ. Since You say that God is in control, How does Love kill?

Have a nice day!

those who truly belong to god cannot be defeated by satan, or do you think that god is not capable of keeping those who belong to him? and something else. i am sorry i have not read all of the posts. Are you saying that God is not in control?

 

[maranatha50]

Jesus Who came from Juda tribe is the Son of God incarnated for our salvation, "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" Jn 1: 12.
Now, those "MANY" as received him are: Jews and Gentiles, that means the Church which includes Jacob Sons and the Gentiles.
But, there is a condition for join to the Church, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God' Jn 1: 13.
The Apostle Paul said: "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love" Gal 5:6
It is clear that non the Jews nor the Gentiles have the right to join to the Church unless by faith which works by love.
From the Day of Pentecost until the last day before the Church's Rapture which will be happened before the Great Tribulation, the Church will be grown and spread around the world and then shall the end come "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" Mat 24: 14.
The people who never believe in Jesus Christ as their own Savior will attend the Great Tribulation, they will have a new chance to be saved but by death and sorrows which will come over the world "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" Mat 24:22.
Anyhow, the Rapture and great Tribulation have been misunderstood by many people, as which is the first and the second, in all situations we believe that God is in control for all these events and will protect His elect's people in anytime and anywhere.
God of prophecy bless you.
Maranatha50

 

[Veracity]

I heard a man on television claiming to be one of the 144,000 that is spoken of...just him though none of his family...does it not say that these were virgins???
How do people not see everything when they come up with these self revelations?

 

[maranatha50]

I heard a man on television claiming to be one of the 144,000 that is spoken of...just him though none of his family...does it not say that these were virgins???
How do people not see everything when they come up with these self revelations?
12-08-09 06:40 PM

The Revelation Book is a Symbolic one, we cannot understand everything clearly behind these events which will come in the future, we need the help of Holy Spirit to get known what God wants us to know in this time of His prophecies.
Through my searching I visit the website:"The Revelation of Jesus Christ Chapter 7".
truthnet.org/christianity/revelation/revelation7/#_ftnref1.
Now, I copy and paste you two different views of the sealing of 144,000 as follows:
There are two views on the timing of these events here in chapter seven.
1. Some view the sealing of the 144,000 following the six seals of Chapter 6, prior to the opening of the 7th seal. Therefore, the 144,000 would have lived through the first part of the tribulation and come to realize Jesus Christ is the Messiah. They would then be supernaturally empowered by Christ to advance the Gospel throughout the Earth. Henry Morris author of the Revelation Record writes about this break in between the 6th and 7th seal:
"After the judgments under the sixth seal (earthquakes, stars falling, etc.,) there was thus to be a brief respite on the earth. This would give God’s enemies an opportunity to recover from their fears and to rationalize their experiences naturalistically, fixing them more firmly than before in their wickedness. Its main purpose, however, was to give those who had come to believe in God an opportunity to understand their new faith, to study His Word….
In particular was this to be vital for the preparation of a very special group of God’s servants. They were to have a key role in witnessing to the world in the latter years of the tribulation period and then in the millennial age to come".
2. Others view the sealing of the 144,000 at the beginning of the tribulation period and their ministry of evangelism causing many to find Christ in the early part of the tribulation, specifically the martyrs in the 5th seal. Following the rapture, and the battle of Gog and Magog a select number of Jewish males come to understand Jesus is Messiah, and begin a world-wide campaign proclaiming the Gospel. Tim LaHaye writes:
"They seal the servants of God, the 144,000 Tribulation witnesses. Since the sixth seal takes place toward the end of the first quarter of the Tribulation, we find that the destroying angel is ordered to wait until the work of sealing is finished. This indicates that at the beginning of the Tribulation, the 144,000 servants of God will be sealed and begin their ministry of preaching the gospel, attended by a mighty worldwide soul harvest that will culminate in a time of severe persecution for believers, inspired by the Antichrist".
For more details, you may visit this website. Be prepared for His coming.
God bless you.
Maranatha50

 

[Mark of Faith]

Be prepared for His coming.

AMEN!!!!!!

One thing I have been concerned about (as a believer that the Church will go through the tribulation) is that there is a very real danger than one could get into a mindset of thinking "Well, the tribs not happened yet, so He's not coming yet". That would be grave error!

Maranatha, you say quite rightly that we cannot understand the whole message of Revelation (or, for that matter any Scripture). We know only in part.

Although I firmly believe in a post-trib rapture, I do hold open that possibility that I am wrong. I look for Christ's return, whenever that might be.

We may also find that our understanding of times in end time teaching is not 100% accurate. Although there are references to numbers and numbers of days in Revelation, sometimes the Bible uses such numbers figuratively rather than specifically.

So, whether the Rapture happens pre, post or mid tribulation, we must always be wise virgins, ready and waiting.

In addition I would like to say that this is an area of doctrine that does bring differences between denominations and Christians. That is a warning! We must not let arguments on this docrinal area distract us from the need to remain in unity with each other. Pre- and Post-trib beliefs are not vital for salvation. On my Rabel Forum a member has joined (at my invite) who is very firmly a pre-Trib Rapture person. We have agreed that we disagree, but we can work together and love each other, and still be in unity.

God bless,
Mark.

 

[maranatha50]

Although I firmly believe in a post-trib rapture, I do hold open that possibility that I am wrong. I look for Christ's return, whenever that might be.

Dear Mark,
I have written that not all the church will go across the Trib, the ready church (The wise Virgins) will be raptured to attend the wedding supper of the Lamb, only the unready church (The unwise Virgins) as well as the unbelievers and devils will go across the Trib, they will be given a new chance to be saved.
"9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled".(Rev 6:9-11)
These are they which came out of great tribulations:
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".(Rev 7:14).

Pre- and Post-trib beliefs are not vital for salvation

It's right that Pre-and Post -trib are not vital for salvation, only the Holy Spirit who wrote the Scripture can interprete it to us. But as a son of God, I trust my Father who saved me by His Son, will protect me from the great trib comes to the world.
"15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words".(1Thess 4:15-18).
Let's comfort one another with these words.
God bless,
Maranatha50

 

[akaspooky]

"The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

This is just not possible, given Paul's mysteries alone. It's especially untrue with regards to Revelation and just about everything else John wrote. I've seen this signature being used by so-called Messianic Jews and their proselytes. Are you one of these, MA?

 

[akaspooky]

Identity of the Virgins

Dear Mark,
I have written that not all the church will go across the Trib, the ready church (The wise Virgins) will be raptured to attend the wedding supper of the Lamb, only the unready church (The unwise Virgins) as well as the unbelievers and devils will go across the Trib, they will be given a new chance to be saved.
Maranatha50

The Virgins are only invited to the wedding supper...

Psalm 45, verse 14, "the virgins her companions that follow her," are those from the house of Jacob who are invited to the supper, after "Thy Right hand shall teach Thee terrible things," from verse 4 has happened. And this is the Bride: "upon Thy right Hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir."

This is one of the most Christian-descriptive and awe-inspiring Psalms, IMO. Whenever we feel like our bad habits are defining us, this should give us the courage to overcome, and to stand: To know that the Lord 'greatly desires' our beauty...

FYI, Dr. Chafer also says that THIS is about the Lord Jesus:
<bdo>
Zechariah 13</bdo><bdo>:6 "And one shall say unto Him, What are these wounds in Thine Hands? Then He shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of My friends."</bdo>

These friends are National Israel, of course. (I've added caps where they define our Lord.)

(I'm sorry, I'm late to the party, so I haven't read all of the responses, yet. Maybe this has already been said.)

As to the timing of this supper, isn't it when the new Jerusalem comes down in Revelation?

 

[maranatha50]

Dear akaspooky,
Thank you for your active sharing with us in one of the most complicated matter in the Bible (Pre-and Post -trib).
First of all, I am not of Messianic Jews and their proselytes, I am a born again christian since 35 years ago, I believe in the Bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Father who sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins and raised for our justification, I believe He will come again to our earth ...
"16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1Thess 4:16-17)
Psalm 45, verse 14, "the virgins her companions that follow her," are those from the house of Jacob who are invited to the supper, after "Thy Right hand shall teach Thee terrible things," from verse 4 has happened. And this is the Bride: "upon Thy right Hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir."
This verse is especially written for the wise and ready virgins:"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut"(Mat 25:10)
Zechariah 13:6, is a prophecy of Jesus Christ and his crucifixion by the order of the Jews and Romans.

As to the timing of this supper, isn't it when the new Jerusalem comes down in Revelation

The timing of the wedding supper of the Lamb will be before Jerusalem comes down in Revelation 21.
"6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God". (Rev. 19:6-9)
So, the supper of lamb comes first then Jerusalem comes down in (Rev. 21:2-3).
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God".
"Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1thess 4:18).
God bless you.
Maranatha50

 

[akaspooky]

The multitude on the sea of glass has the song of Moses, making them Hebrew. These are the ones invited to the wedding supper and who are not members of the Body of Christ, don't you agree, maranatha?

 

[akaspooky]

Jezebel

Hi maranatha50,
I believe that the great star that falls is Satan being kicked out of Heaven. As we know, he has many names, and this time its Wormwood - to drink, similar to eating his words in Eden. And he is given the key to the pit, where it seems like he gets another name, doesn't it? Then, since his tail has swept 1/3 of the angels with him, he also has caused 1/3 of the stars to fall with him. Now I haven't read this anywhere else, so it's just me, waiting for likeminded believers to confirm my gut-feeling, so to speak.

Which means that the locusts make the marks on their fellow-Satan-believers... possibly for the purpose of showing who is Christian? And we know that the locusts are human because Joel's locusts are... even though they seem to come from the pit of hell. Perhaps this is demonic possession we're seeing?

Another thing that occurs to me is the fact that the marking but not killing is considered a woe, while the 200M horsemen are NOT! So, it would seem that these tow events are actually one event, and that the marking is preparatory to the slaughter.

And since the beast comes out of the pit and (almost immediately?) makes war on the saints, this makes sense. In addition, it seems to me that the 144K and the 2 witnesses are one and the same, for the same reasons. That they both are made war upon by the beast, and that all of the marks of the sealing that we see on the 144K standing with Christ later on, are things specifically said about Christians. I.e., that Paul says he had hoped to present us to Christ as a virgin, that we are all without guile as Nathaniel and don't lie, that we are firstfruits, etc.

Which means that the 2 witnesses represented by two candlesticks, and I am assuming that the candlesticks still have the definition that was given to us earlier in the book, are 2 Churches. And if we look at the description of those Churches, we find two which have nothing overtly bad said about them (although Smyrna seems to complain about being poor, for which reason she is tested, IMO).

We also see the Synagogue of Satan persecuting these two Churches, and not the others... and for good reason. Because the others have been Judaized to greater degrees, until the split when the dead church is separated from Philadelphia, leaving only the apathetic rich to wait for Jesus' last Coming Quickly statement right before Armageddon.

And what I mean by Judaized is that they 1) lost their first love (Grace, because of the language of the text) but still hated the Jewish Coptic Nicolatains; 2) accepted the Nicolatains and other religious beliefs - even attending their rituals (which to my mind means fell backward into Judaism); 4) put up with Jezebel who taught them occult things as well; 5) learned to love money.

(What I think about Jezebel has to do with what I've read in the Talmud and Cabalah -- which statement will probably mean my last post here. I've seen no signs that the Church in general, remembers Matthew 23... although I'm hoping to be found wrong about what YOUR board will do with this revelation. If so, you will be the most blessed of Earth! Because the most dangerous thing that anyone can do today is to forget about the Pharisees and those who believed their Talmudic teachings. If you do so, you will also forget that Paul was beaten and left for dead, as were all of the Churches he started.)

May the Lord Who holds your breath in His Hands and owns all your ways, open your eyes to this last truth and guard your life unto the end of this age.

 

[maranatha50]

Hi akaspooky,

The multitude on the sea of glass has the song of Moses, making them Hebrew. These are the ones invited to the wedding supper and who are not members of the Body of Christ, don't you agree, maranatha?

Yes, I agree with you, but we must know first who are those multitude, they are the 144.000 which were sealed by the angel:"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel" Rev.7,4.
Paul has wrote about them in Romans 9,4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises".
Some interpretations say that those are the friends of the Bride, and the great multitude are also joined to them, these are they which came out of great tribulation:"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" Rev. 7,9
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" v.14.
These are the ones invited to the wedding supper as the friends of the Bride and who are not members of the Body of Christ.
I hope I could explain your enquiry accordingly.
God bless you.
Maranatha50

 

[cman77]

Not one of you knows what is going to happen

 

[hisservant56]

Amen cman 77...


Just my two cents is keep your lamps full of oil and be about your Father's business.

Blessings & Shalom,
debbi rennier

 

[Kit Carson]

Revelation is an very interesting subject for sure. I do not mind talking in person to someone about it, but to me it is just fun. Wonder and maybe type stuff.

I nor anyone else knows when Christ will come. All we know is one day there he will be. I for one wish he would hurry up. But until that day no one knows.

The world is coming to an end, the sky is falling, just about every religion and T.V . ministry has their opinion on this one. That is just about the sum of it opinion.

Some things are interesting to try to understand, like the 144,000 or whatever, just maybe they are the workers, the administrators, or whatever for the new Kingdom. I am sure we will all have some type of job, intelligence and with even more understanding and the knowledge of all things a mind must be occupied. Think?? Could be, but that is my take on it.

A great danger to hash it, dice it, and form an opinion, simply because there is no known answer.

But fun to think about at times.

Kit

 

[akaspooky]

Then, No, you don't agree with me

Hi akaspooky,
Yes, I agree with you, but we must know first who are those multitude, they are the 144.000 which were sealed by the angel
Maranatha50

...because the multitude is said to be without number when we see them later on in the book... as is the sand of the sea... as is Jacob, of course.

144,000 is a specific number. (Do you find it interesting that Dan is absent, as is Ephraim? or do you have a theory about the reason?)

Since the OT has shown that some men were considered as actual members of Jacob... or more correctly, as members of the tribe in which they lived... and were literally counted as such,

my thesis stands. :wink:

 

[akaspooky]

The 144k are not plain old humans

Some things are interesting to try to understand, like the 144,000 or whatever, just maybe they are the workers, the administrators, or whatever for the new Kingdom. I am sure we will all have some type of job, intelligence and with even more understanding and the knowledge of all things a mind must be occupied. Think?? Could be, but that is my take on it.
Kit

No offense, but this just can't be, Kit. The not-Glorified humans will be the workers, tillers, etc. The, No flesh would be saved, verse is talking about this. Because there has to be plain old human flesh to make plain old human babies... and of course, to be the usual human rebels who make war at the end of the 1000 years.

The plain old humans will come out from the nations after the War, and come to Jerusalem to replace the children that Jacob has lost. Need Chapter and Verse? I'm usually too lazy to look for them, but I will if you like...

Jesus says He will put His Words in the mouths of His witnesses... and He says it again in Revelation, that He will give (the word 'power' is an addition) to His 2 witnesses and they will prophesy, so that we will not have to consider or plan what we will say (and mess the whole thing up), but that the Holy Spirit will be FULLY in control of our tongues in those days.

What Jesus said to His disciples THEN, He still says today. And 'we' will again be taken before the Sanhedrins of the world and our testimony will be for the salvation of the ones who haven't yet heard His Voice. And our resurrection will be in front of their faces... and THEN they will mourn Him.

IMO... the 'hidden manna', given to the ones who overcome all of the heresies within the visible Church, is that same 'food' Jesus ate and didn't hunger. And the saved man will literally not live by bread alone but by every word of God.

 

[Kit Carson]

No offense, but this just can't be, Kit. The not-Glorified humans will be the workers, tillers, etc. The, No flesh would be saved, verse is talking about this. Because there has to be plain old human flesh to make plain old human babies... and of course, to be the usual human rebels who make war at the end of the 1000 years.

The plain old humans will come out from the nations after the War, and come to Jerusalem to replace the children that Jacob has lost. Need Chapter and Verse? I'm usually too lazy to look for them, but I will if you like...

Jesus says He will put His Words in the mouths of His witnesses... and He says it again in Revelation, that He will give (the word 'power' is an addition) to His 2 witnesses and they will prophesy, so that we will not have to consider or plan what we will say (and mess the whole thing up), but that the Holy Spirit will be FULLY in control of our tongues in those days.

What Jesus said to His disciples THEN, He still says today. And 'we' will again be taken before the Sanhedrins of the world and our testimony will be for the salvation of the ones who haven't yet heard His Voice. And our resurrection will be in front of their faces... and THEN they will mourn Him.

IMO... the 'hidden manna', given to the ones who overcome all of the heresies within the visible Church, is that same 'food' Jesus ate and didn't hunger. And the saved man will literally not live by bread alone but by every word of God.

Hey:

No offense taken, that I think is about impossible to offend me. Not totally by you would have to work hard at it.

I really do not know the answer or who will be who. I was just yapping. Wondering.

It really does not matter to me at all, if the lamb tells me to till the field I will do so, if he give me a cushy job I will simply enjoy it.
I really do not know, and I am quite sure no one else does either.
One day we will know, till then, I will occasionally wonder about it , but leave it up to the one who does know.

Take Care

Kit