Sarcastic atheists...why?'s

[KingJ]

Elegantly put. Tell me, so far as you understand it, are any of the people who do not possess love of all humans, or even love for all Christians, or even enduring patience, but who do accept Christ, admitted into Heaven?

Conversely, will someone who lives out all of the attributes you describe, but who fails to accept Jesus, be admitted?

According to scripture, Jesus is revealed to those after His heart. You are after His heart if you hate what is evil Rom 12:9. If you hate what is evil you will sincerely repent Psalm 51:17. If you repent, God judges this depth of intent Jer 17:9-11 and if you pass, He reveals Jesus to you 1 Cor 12:3.

So to answer your second question, if anyone does good works and has not found Jesus, their motives are not pure. We must also recall that there are scales. 1 Pet 4:18 says the righteous are barely saved. There are many that will just not make it and many that will just make it. So your question is hard to answer in that only God can truly see and judge the level of intent.

What we can safely conclude is two things: 1. Anyone who has not accepted Jesus has not yet passed God's judgment. 2. Everyone living still has hope.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Kirby, God is never unjust. How can you say that...

Hi, Lanolin.

Sorry. I should take greater care to couch my ideas in terms that make it clear I do not know that God and Jesus don’t exist. And, if I ought to know that they DO, I admit this is a failing on my part.

Likewise, if I seem to say, “God is not just,” what I mean is, “God does not seem just by my understanding of the word.” I will redouble my efforts to be more explicit.

Having said that, I know you would not want me to be fake here and lie that I sense some awareness of God’s existence. If God is real, then this is something I dearly would like to have. But I won’t pretend I do and I can only hope you won’t take offense.

While we’re on the topic, several times you have suggested that I haven’t yet properly arranged myself, spiritually, to attain awareness of God’s presence. Though I admit I THINK I have given it the “good college try” lots of times, I admit, I probably don’t know what I’m doing. I HAVE prayed, both liturgically and extemporaneously, at times when I thought there was a God and I just hadn’t found the right “channel,” and at times when I was in doubt (as you find me today). But I have never just “gone through the motions” to see what happens. Any God who would accept such prayer would be a rinky-dink Lord indeed, as I assume you’d agree.

Any suggestions of some specific things I should try? That sounds kind of silly, I know. But you contend God is there. Okay. I can’t say you’re mistaken. And, if he IS there, I acknowledge he is the foundation of all the universe and, in my opinion, knowing anything else about Creation is unimportant by comparison.

On a completely different subject, if you’d like to talk about where I find my notion of justice is at odds with what I understand about God’s standard of justice (again – absolutely acknowledging that maybe I’m the mixed-up party), I’m happy to get into that.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

...What is it about Jesus that you find so 'unacceptable'? That he would give his life for you?

My issue with Jesus’s sacrifice is: I would never want someone to be tortured to death on my behalf. My objection has much less to do with, “Keep your salvation. I like sinning so I don’t need it,” and everything to do with, “Torture and scapegoating are wrong. I don’t want to voluntarily have any part in it and I am inclined to fight against being coerced into participating in it.”

If I wanted to be offensive [trigger warning: I’m about to be a bit offensive, but only to illustrate my point] I could say something like, “God may be okay with letting people torture and kill his kid on my behalf. But I’M not okay with it. I’m not saying that necessarily means I love his kid more than HE does, but, as a third party observer, it’s hard to see another way to look at it.”

 

[B-A-C]

My issue with Jesus’s sacrifice is: I would never want someone to be tortured to death on my behalf. My objection has much less to do with, “Keep your salvation. I like sinning so I don’t need it,” and everything to do with, “Torture and scapegoating are wrong.

To borrow a line from a Star Trek movie...

“The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few”. If it took only person to die... to save millions of others... would it be worth it?
Jesus knew what He was getting into before He "CHOSE" to do it. It was His choice. The Father didn't "make" Him do it. If I could save my family by just me dying, I would gladly do it. I think many people would. Even if I have be tortured for a long time... to save my family, or a really good friend, I think I would probably do it.
Of course I've never really been in that exact situation, but I was a fireman for about a decade. I was in the military (I never fought in any wars).

Another way to look at it... if we never sinned.... if "YOU" never sinned (let's make it personal) Jesus wouldn't have had to die and be tortured.
So why did you choose to send Him there? Why do you still choose to?

(Hey, I'm there with you).

How many movies are all about one guy risking it all, or dying to save the world? Armageddon, Independence Day, Rambo,The Iron Giant, etc...
If this wasn't a popular idea.. then why are super-hero movies so popular? Thor, Super-man, Batman, Spider-man, Iron man...
take your pick. One guy puts his life on the line to save (dozens/hundreds/millions) of others. Almost always there is a "torture" scene where the
hero is in unimaginable pain.

Torture and scape-goating are wrong... definitely not fair. But from the Christian perspective... we are the ones who nailed Him to the cross.
Why did we do that if we know it's wrong?

I don't know if you're married, have children or a family... but what would you do to save them?

Besides... even if you don't want to believe in Jesus... you can still stop sinning if you want to... or can you? No one I've ever known has been able to.

 

[B-A-C]

Likewise, if I seem to say, “God is not just,” what I mean is, “God does not seem just by my understanding of the word.”

I would agree with that statement. But don't feel alone. A lot of the world doesn't know what is "just".
Have you ever lied? Ever stolen anything? Ever hurt anyone's feelings? Ever physically hit someone? Ever ignored someone? Called anyone stupid or idiot?
Lost or broken something that wasn't yours?
(I've done all the above, at one time or another.. some more than once).

I'm not really meaning for you to answer here... it's a hypothetical question. But I'm sure you've done something wrong to someone at least once in your life.
The liberal mindset says forgive and forget... but that's not really "just" if you think about it. If God was really "just" about everything all of the time....
none of us would make it.

But there will come a day... when justice will be served. For some of us.. it was already served by Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

My issue with Jesus’s sacrifice is: I would never want someone to be tortured to death on my behalf. My objection has much less to do with, “Keep your salvation. I like sinning so I don’t need it,” and everything to do with, “Torture and scapegoating are wrong. I don’t want to voluntarily have any part in it and I am inclined to fight against being coerced into participating in it.”

If I wanted to be offensive [trigger warning: I’m about to be a bit offensive, but only to illustrate my point] I could say something like, “God may be okay with letting people torture and kill his kid on my behalf. But I’M not okay with it. I’m not saying that necessarily means I love his kid more than HE does, but, as a third party observer, it’s hard to see another way to look at it.”

Some understandable mistaken assumptions on your part here.

Jesus is not God's kid. Jesus is God. A key verse to help us grasp the trinity is Isa 9:6.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

It was never a case of ''let me torture my kid instead of the guilty because, oh gosh mankind is sinning now''.

God planned to die for us as Jesus from before the foundations of the earth 1 Pet 1:20. Lets be crystal clear on that. Knowing that, God went ahead with creating mankind. Good God = create highly intelligent being with free will + create an option for those that are after your heart to be with you / escape death.

We also have to grasp that if Jesus never died, it would not then result in all being damned to the lake of fire. Adam and Eve left the garden of Eden to Earth. Death =banishment from God's presence = Earth. Lake of fire / hell is reserved for those sold out to wickedness.

In addition, God never planned for humans to torture Him. The plan / prophecy was from before the foundations of the earth to be a lamb to the slaughter Isa 53:7. Not resist death. To give in to it so that the desire to lay His life down for us was clear. The devil and evil humans chose to torture.

Now the interesting part. He requires the same of us.

 

[Lanolin]

Going back to adam and eve, when they disobeyed God, He had to sacrifice something so that they would not be naked. Because they did WRONG! Someone else had to die, so they could live. God made aprons for them out of skin...where did this skin come from?

Have you ever sacrificed something so that your children could live? Maybe it was time, or maybe it was food that you went without so your baby could eat. You gave this up for someone else. Knowing they would benefit from it.

Jesus gave his life for us. He willingly did so. That is not unjust, that is love! God did not torture Jesus! He was tortured by humans who sinned and mocked by those who DID NOT BELIEVE. They are the ones that killed Jesus, not God. GOd raised him to life again on the third day or do you not get this part?

Death is not the end! I am beginning to think maybe you havent read the bible right to the end thats why you lack understanding of what really happened. Well go back and read it again, not skipping any parts this time.

Also you might want to check your version, cos Im pretty sure some sarcastic smart aleck thought it would be cool to have an athiests bible and just leave out the important part like the resurrection.

 

[theLeadmonger]

If I had a problem with something like that and I wanted to take it up to an arbitrator, I'd sue under the auspices of the Department of Imagination. I obviously have no Idea what you would call that in New Zealand, but London does have Ladbrook's Betting. See what the odds are that their dumb imaginary notions, ideas, and fancies, really exist.

There's a law of rational gambling, it's descended from jurisprudence on the continent and detailed in The Pensées of Blaize Pascal.