So tired of all the ignorant bashing of Catholics

[KingJ]

It seems that every once in a while, someone takes a bash at Catholics on this site.

I am so tired of ignorant people typing ignorant statements on topics they are completely clueless on. Every person and every belief deserve a proper and sound judgment.

Properly judging matters is evidence of being a Christian.

1 Cor 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints.
1 Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1 Cor 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things.
John 7:24 judge with righteous judgment.

If you make incriminating accusations about a person or a religion, you need to as a Christian A. be 100% certain that you have first properly considered all there is to consider / properly judged the matter and can support your statement. B. Ensure the accusation is on an issue that is material. No Rom 14:5 'type' disagreements need to be heated or carry insulting language.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Most of the disagreements Protestants have with Catholics are immaterial matters. They can tick the box of being Rom 14:5 non-issues.

I will be posting Catholic bashing posts in this thread, and we can all take a stab at getting the facts right.

All Catholics, irrespective of their differing traditions, are Christians who love and serve Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

LOL> You are so pompous you cannot link yourself to your impending destruction in the symbolic lake of fire!
Every Catholic worships idols of Ishtar and baby Tammuz of old Babylon.

This statement is incorrect. They do not worship idols of Ishtar and baby Tammuz.

It is correct that there are similarities to Ishtar and Tammuz of the 'Babylonian cult' with Mary and Jesus. But that is the A-Z of the matter.

A. They do worship Jesus.
B. They do not worship Mary. Mary is called the 'queen of heaven'. Another plagiarism from the Babylonian cult, but really a non-issue. So what? She did Mother God of the universe, did she not?

Here are the words of the 'hail Mary':

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

All prayers to Mary and saints are a stepping stone to Jesus. Catholic teaching teaches that Jesus deserves the utmost respect and awe. Praying to saints is out of respect for Jesus. Not to bypass Jesus. IE They do not feel worthy enough to always pray directly to Jesus.

This is no train smash. It is like asking a relative that you knew who died, to please have a chat with the Lord when you feel He is not answering your prayers. It is most certainly a Rom 14:5 type disagreement.

Every Catholic prays to various statues and dead people.

Please better explain, this is too little to go on.

Every Catholic eats blood when GOD said not to.

Please better explain, this is too little to go on.

Catholics killed everyone who had Bible translated into their own language.

Please better explain, this is too little to go on.

Catholics killed countless people who refused to accept that bread and wine became flesh and blood.

Please better explain, this is too little to go on.

Catholics priests demand to be called father when Jesus said call no one father!

The verse you referring to is Matt 23:9 “And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven''.

Every child calls their earthly dad, father.
Joseph was called the father of Pharoah.
Job was called the father of the poor.
Stephen and many Christians call Abraham, 'father Abraham'.

Also, for context we need to read Matt 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

So, either Jesus wants us to call nobody father and not anyone our 'boss', or Jesus is referring to something else.

Catholics teach and I agree with them, that Jesus is referring to the divinity of God as Father. IE, do not have gods before Him. He is Father God; He is your true God, aka Master.

Catholic priests I can promise you, do not power trip from being called 'father'. It is purely out of respect for the position they hold and all the work they do as unto the Lord for the church.

This is a Rom 14:5 type disagreement.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear KingJ,
To be up front, with the discussion that you desire to have, what denomination are you?

1 Cor 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints.
1 Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1 Cor 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things.
John 7:24 judge with righteous judgment.

Well, I hope we have 1 Cor 6:1 covered here at Talk Jesus, which would allow this to move forward.
1 Cor 6:3, I should say that this verse falls within the grey. Are we talking here about this life, or eternal life when we are talking about the theology of denominations.
1 Cor 2:15 - I would say that most here on Talk Jesus if not all in some fashion satisfy this.
John 7:24 - is a bit trickier, because "righteous judgment" at times goes by the wayside when one's emotions are involved, which include prior experiences with the subject matter. Which with this subject matter would be Catholicism. As well as prior experiences/interactions.

My own experiences with Catholicism, does make me biased in some ways. I was baptized (Adult) and confirmed, put away in a Catholic Boys Home for a couple of years, was sexualized by a Catholic Brother while there, my mother did not enter the convent in order to get married. That last one, I would hear from my mother when I was acting up, "I should have entered the Convent!". lol

I honestly believe you have to differentiate between the Church Doctrines, Practices, and the Congregation/Individuals who attend, as well as those who are in authority of teaching in the local parishes.

One point of order is that Talk Jesus is a Protestant site, that invites all believers to participate. However, evangelizing a specific denomination is usually frowned upon. Though critiques have been done on certain practices/beliefs i.e. Calvinism etc. Oh, and cults need not apply.

Special Note: Please keep it civil, and reference Scripture when making a point for/against. Including personal experiences is acceptable, but again the negative/positive of them, does not equate to being as valid as Scripture is. They are yours and not necessarily everyone else's. I added this, because lately we have been attacking each other, and beliefs with the "take no prisons" attitudes. Remember Jesus died on the Cross for us all. \o/

Otherwise, let's see how this goes!
Praying that it goes well, is enlightening, and Lord willing uplifting to the Body of Christ.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator/YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[KingJ]

Dear KingJ,
To be up front, with the discussion that you desire to have, what denomination are you?

Conservative Protestant. I am a member of the assemblies of God church here in Africa. If I were in the USA, I would probably attend a Baptist church. I did grow up in a Catholic church.

Well, I hope we have 1 Cor 6:1 covered here at Talk Jesus, which would allow this to move forward.
1 Cor 6:3, I should say that this verse falls within the grey. Are we talking here about this life, or eternal life when we are talking about the theology of denominations.

This life. Pauls makes that clear if you read verses 1-9.

I read 1 Cor 6:1-9 as a heated exchange by Paul. He is upset at how they are carrying on. Unable to judge and resolve matters between themselves. He uses something he learnt from his trip to heaven to remove all debating on the topic. Slams the 'hammer down'. No Debate, you will judge angels one day! How dare you take matters to the unsaved when you can take it to the saved.

Who the angels are that we will judge I feel is a non-issue.

John 7:24 - is a bit trickier, because "righteous judgment" at times goes by the wayside when one's emotions are involved, which include prior experiences with the subject matter. Which with this subject matter would be Catholicism. As well as prior experiences/interactions.

I believe that as you mature as a Christian you better grasp the important things. Our personal experiences are an advantage. They enable us to better dissect through all the fluff, lies and immaterial matters.

My own experiences with Catholicism, does make me biased in some ways. I was baptized (Adult) and confirmed, put away in a Catholic Boys Home for a couple of years, was sexualized by a Catholic Brother while there, my mother did not enter the convent in order to get married. That last one, I would hear from my mother when I was acting up, "I should have entered the Convent!". lol

That's terrible, so sorry to hear.

I honestly believe you have to differentiate between the Church Doctrines, Practices, and the Congregation/Individuals who attend, as well as those who are in authority of teaching in the local parishes.

If necessary, yes. Agreed.

One point of order is that Talk Jesus is a Protestant site, that invites all believers to participate. However, evangelizing a specific denomination is usually frowned upon. Though critiques have been done on certain practices/beliefs i.e. Calvinism etc. Oh, and cults need not apply.

There are 1.4 billion Catholics in the world and Catholicism has been the most dominant Christian religion in the world since day one.

As such I don't believe they should be grouped in the same category as other beliefs like Calvinism. There is a lot we can learn from Catholic teaching; their theology has been refined. We need to be a lot wiser in our discipleship.

My goal is to win Catholics over, but we will not do that if we continually harp on trivial matters and be rude, aggressive and disrespectful. A lot of teaching in Catholicism is sound.

Special Note: Please keep it civil, and reference Scripture when making a point for/against. Including personal experiences is acceptable, but again the negative/positive of them, does not equate to being as valid as Scripture is. They are yours and not necessarily everyone else's. I added this, because lately we have been attacking each other, and beliefs with the "take no prisons" attitudes. Remember Jesus died on the Cross for us all. \o/

Agree 100%. When I get a chance, I will type what I believe are the material disagreements.

 

[rstrats]

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Persuaded with regard to what?

 

[joestue]

Persuaded with regard to what?

The point is let people be persuaded about their personal believes, but do not let that divide members of the house of God.

in that particular passage, the arguement is about sunday vs saturday vs friday worship services. it may also include the argument of whether or not we have to keep the sabbath.

my church just did a 4 week long class were we examined the sabbath. it does indeed appear to be the case that God intends us to keep a full sabbath. not legally on the sabbath (my pastor has monday as his sabbath) but a full day of real, actual rest.

 

[rstrats]

in that particular passage, the arguement is about sunday vs saturday vs friday worship services. it may also include the argument of whether or not we have to keep the sabbath.

That passage says nothing about the Sabbath. Verse 6 explains to what verse 5 is referring; that the verse is talking about eating or not eating on certain days of the week. There just isn't any reason here for thinking that Paul is talking about the Sabbath. The specific reason that Paul wrote the chapter is summed up in verse 20: "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food".
Look, I'm not advocating here for the keeping of the Sabbath. Romans 14 isn't appropriate as one of the proof texts for saying that Sabbath observance doesn't apply to Christians.

 

[KingJ]

That passage says nothing about the Sabbath. Verse 6 explains to what verse 5 is referring; that the verse is talking about eating or not eating on certain days of the week. There just isn't any reason here for thinking that Paul is talking about the Sabbath. The specific reason that Paul wrote the chapter is summed up in verse 20: "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food".
Look, I'm not advocating here for the keeping of the Sabbath. Romans 14 isn't appropriate as one of the proof texts for saying that Sabbath observance doesn't apply to Christians.

It is very clear that Paul is making a point with a certain example. That he did not select the Sabbath as the example to make his point is a non issue.

 

[joestue]

That passage says nothing about the Sabbath. Verse 6 explains to what verse 5 is referring; that the verse is talking about eating or not eating on certain days of the week. There just isn't any reason here for thinking that Paul is talking about the Sabbath. The specific reason that Paul wrote the chapter is summed up in verse 20: "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food".
Look, I'm not advocating here for the keeping of the Sabbath. Romans 14 isn't appropriate as one of the proof texts for saying that Sabbath observance doesn't apply to Christians.

Yes..

Jewish customs regarding food you didnt or did drink on the sabbath

And they had other rules for feast days too. Its all very complicated

 

[rstrats]

It is very clear that Paul is making a point with a certain example. That he did not select the Sabbath as the example to make his point is a non issue.

Correct. And that is why it can't be used as a proof text for saying that Sabbath observance is not required for Christians. And I believe that with every fiber of my being.

 

[joestue]

Correct. And that is why it can't be used as a proof text for saying that Sabbath observance is not required for Christians. And I believe that with every fiber of my being.

Keep in mind a person saying the feasts dont have to be observed would be equally regarded as a hectic.

So what is paul actually talking about in your opinion?

 

[KingJ]

Correct. And that is why it can't be used as a proof text for saying that Sabbath observance is not required for Christians. And I believe that with every fiber of my being.

The Sabbath was a law given to Jews specifically. You can most certainly be fine with God if you not a Jew. But if you are, Christian or not, I think it would be wise to honor it.

 

[KingJ]

Keep in mind a person saying the feasts dont have to be observed would be equally regarded as a hectic.

So what is paul actually talking about in your opinion?

I personally don't think disobeying the Sabbath is a small matter. It must be properly considered. Any sin that got you the death penalty in the OT is certainly not a Rom 14:5 matter. But having said that, if you understand the reason for the Sabbath, you will know that if are not a Jew, it is fine to not think on it.

 

[joestue]

I personally don't think disobeying the Sabbath is a small matter. It must be properly considered. Any sin that got you the death penalty in the OT is certainly not a Rom 14:5 matter. But having said that, if you understand the reason for the Sabbath, you will know that if are not a Jew, it is fine to not think on it.

Sure, but i am more interested in why ratrats got triggered by my comment to the point he didn't understand what im getting at.

The only days that would result in arguments about foods on them or not on them, in the torah anyways, is the sabbath or feast days. In 70ad its unlikely paul would have to settle an argument about that

He would have had to settle arguments about the 4 encyclopedia set volume length of the oral torah as was taught by the rabbi's jesus hated.

 

[MedicBravo]

Most people are quite well informed and educated on Catholics and their group and WHY we'll NEVER be one.
We have the Bible of which there's no mention of the Rosary, Purgatory, very expensive churches, priestly clothing, and parading dead "saints' body parts around while dressed in the same, and many of their churches "claim" to have "relics" with no way to prove it.

Hundreds of hours of videos and numerous pictures of Catholics in mobs around such things groping at them trying to touch and "imbue themselves" with "holy power".
This isn't a small group of people.
This is mass number of Catholics and isn't a new thing.
Indulgences. We know a lot about them.
The current "pope" and what he said and done and you haven't kicked him out?

 

[KingJ]

Most people are quite well informed and educated on Catholics and their group and WHY we'll NEVER be one.

We tend to overlook a lot of Catholic teaching that is sound and correct. We are indoctrinated against it as Protestants at large have an inherent dislike for them that stems from the 300 year-long reformation wars. Wars, which had little to nothing to do with actual theology.

We have the Bible of which there's no mention of the Rosary,

With the Rosary and in fact all prayer to the saints, the context is very important. All these prayers are centred on Jesus.

I would not teach that we should pray this, but we are out of line if we overly condemn those who do.

Purgatory,

The Catholic bible includes the Maccabees which has a few scriptures that strongly hint at such a place. Many passages in other books are used to infer it.

I am not going to go into detail and defend this as I don't believe in it. But I will just say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a belief of God giving those en-route to eternal damnation an opportunity to be properly scrutinized. As Protestants we believe that God properly judges and evaluates us during our time on earth. But with this, many 'human' questions arise. Such as, what of those who die right after the age of accountability? What of those who fall into sin after years of service? Given the time, would they not have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus?

When one meditates on the fact that hell is eternal and irreversible, the concept of a Purgatory becomes logical.

very expensive churches,

I cringe when I hear people mock their expensive cathedrals and such. It shows a complete lack of understanding.

A - Priests take a vow of poverty and if they don't, they live a simple and modest life.
B - In a church, the most expensive item is a massive crucifix with Jesus on it. Properly placed in the front and centre of the church.
C - A church is beautified in honour of Jesus. Stained windows, paintings and statues of Jesus and all those who help bring glory to Him. Mary, disciples and profound saints.

Now contrast this to some charismatic churches where a sound system and disco lights take centre stage, and the 'priests' seem to take a vow of prosperity. Which is certainly not modest and scriptural.

priestly clothing,

I don’t see too much wrong with this. In the OT priests were advised to wear certain items. See Lev 16 and Exo 28.

The matter of concern for me is vanity and hypocrisy. IE A. Is the priest wearing these garments to appear holy at church when at home he is a devil? Or B. is the priest wearing these garments for vanity and a carnal power trip?

I would argue that A could go either way as with all Christians and B, highly unlikely. I am sure most priests would prefer to wear sneakers, shorts and a t-shirt instead of dress up in apparel the bible recommended they wear at meetings.

and parading dead "saints' body parts around while dressed in the same, and many of their churches "claim" to have "relics" with no way to prove it.

This topic could be a thread all on its own.

Do you believe God is sentimental? Does He want us to be sentimental with Him?

I believe the answer is a resounding yes! If we look at the Sabbath. God wanted all Jews to respect and honour a 'day' of the week. The 'day' of the week was meaningless until it became the day that God helped them escape 400 years of slavery. So now, a Saturday is no longer just a 'day' of the week.

As such, Jews do not worship the 'day'. It is maximum naivety and low intelligence to think that. They desire to honour God, and from this desire they respect and give meaning to a 'day' of the week.

In my own life, there is a parking spot at a gas station where God performed a miracle for me as I shared here Share your miracle. That spot, I now visit as often as I can and thank God for the miracle. Every time I drive to or park in the spot, I feel God's literal presence near me. It is like me knocking on the door to His house. It is like pushing a button on a television remote that switches on a ''talking directly to God'' station. It is literal idiocy and insanity to think I am worshiping a parking spot!

What happened to sick people who simply touched the shadow of Peter after Pentecost? What happened to people who had faith in Jesus and simply touched His clothing?

The shadow and clothing, on their own, have absolutely no meaning. But when we by faith attach meaning. Miracles can and do happen. God is very sentimental.

God ordained a graphic and violent death by stoning for all Jews who did not respect the Sabbath. Meditate on that fact if you think God is not sentimental.

One day when we get to heaven, I am sure the crowns we receive will have the date and time we were born again engraved on them. I am sure that my mansion will have the parking spot from the gas station.

Now, it is exactly the same with relics and saints who did things for the Lord. If we have faith in Jesus, it should give us butterflies.

many of their churches "claim" to have "relics" with no way to prove it.?

Fake relics are a separate topic. On certain items mostly a non-issue. Take a crucifix as an example. I know it is not a relic but like a relic, it is symbolic to Jesus and Christianity. No matter if it is the wood of the real cross or simply two twigs found on the ground put together, if you have faith in Jesus, it has powerful symbolism.

 

[KingJ]

Hundreds of hours of videos and numerous pictures of Catholics in mobs around such things groping at them trying to touch and "imbue themselves" with "holy power". This isn't a small group of people. This is mass number of Catholics and isn't a new thing

Can you give more detail please.

Indulgences. We know a lot about them.

Most don't. There is actually so much to consider on this. I would like to know what your actual grievance is before I run away with an unnecessarily long-winded reply.

I don't agree with the practice and would agree that there has been and is abuse of funds obtained from it. I don't mind terribly if funds are used to keep the church in power, (politically and land) that is perfectly fine. What irks me more is one person's vanity and personal gain. The Catholic church condemned many who were corrupt and abused the system. It is a well-known fact that money from indulgences were and are used to help the community.

It is also not unreasonable to think that you gain favour with God when you give. There is a lot of truth to tithing for example.

The current "pope" and what he said and done and you haven't kicked him out?

Agreed, let's just say that it is a well-known fact that many priests are praying for him.

 

[MedicBravo]

Can you give more detail please.



Most don't. There is actually so much to consider on this. I would like to know what your actual grievance is before I run away with an unnecessarily long-winded reply.

I don't agree with the practice and would agree that there has been and is abuse of funds obtained from it. I don't mind terribly if funds are used to keep the church in power, (politically and land) that is perfectly fine. What irks me more is one person's vanity and personal gain. The Catholic church condemned many who were corrupt and abused the system. It is a well-known fact that money from indulgences were and are used to help the community.

It is also not unreasonable to think that you gain favour with God when you give. There is a lot of truth to tithing for example.



Agreed, let's just say that it is a well-known fact that many priests are praying for him.

More detail?
There's plenty of evidence to back what most do, yet they can NOT back it with scripture.
Did Jesus EVER say in any form "Take the dead bodies or parts from "saints", revere them, cover them in precious metals and stones, and parade them in public several times a year or whatever." No.

Jesus lived a humble life. Many commandments were give in the OT and only to Israel.
Are they examples of what happened and for those people, time, and place? Yes.
IDK how "legit" their relics are especially in America but if ANY one of them was brought here it would be big news.
They're too busy with their TDS and crying about this and that to put anything good in the news.
You will see more churches being attacked.
Churches need money like everyone else but large # of Protestant ones do not have or make them like Catholics do.
Lastly, God dwells with us not in some "church" especially their fancy ones.

 

[Peter1]

Its all nonsense You have the core faith of the church and it is not contaminated by private revelation there is a divide between the two.The Catholic Church does not use prophecy and you will never hear it coming from the Church it all comes from private revelation which is not required to be believed only the core faith is which has never changed. The Pope can only speak on faith and morals which has been done once in the history of the Church.Every other word out of his mouth is fallible.That we are at his beckon call as a slave is a Joke.

You want a Guy like that he sits at the Head of the LDS what ever he says comes from God and you must believe he is the prophet you have to do what he says - the Pope is not a prophet and if he was it would go to private revelation not through the Church.The Church only approves private revelation after years of investigation with the goal of making sure its not a evil source only.

Yep just watch a few videos and your a expert on Catholics most of you are frightened just to look which is what is wanted.I have looked at every christian sect and other faiths on this earth that I could with no fear and it changed nothing.You can't get the true story unless you investigate it yourself rather than listen to internet videos.

So what should they do with all the dead bodies that did not decompose.Today's count is over 300 with incorruptible bodies some that look today how the died long ago.You can see pictures of them people want to see it.You can't have some Saints arm in a side show at a circus that would be disrespectful.

 

[joestue]

Today's count is over 300 with incorruptible bodies

Uh, what?

Are they in the deep underground vatican archives?