t-t-t-t-tongues; why the forked tongues and unchristian division?

[PearlB]

Just noticed how often we today say Holy Spirit while the Scripture uses the term Holy Ghost more often..

It depends on which version of the bible you choose. Both mine say Holy Spirit.

 

[Reba1]

It depends on which version of the bible you choose. Both mine say Holy Spirit.

Sometimes i wish i could read Hebrew , Arabic and Greek... I struggle with English, Think i will see which is used in the Geneva Bible .. Not King James only but KJ because i grew up hearing it.

 

[B-A-C]

Sometimes i wish i could read Hebrew , Arabic and Greek... I struggle with English, Think i will see which is used in the Geneva Bible .. Not King James only but KJ because i grew up hearing it.

The phrase Holy "Ghost" in not in many of the Bibles I have except three. It's in King James 89 times, but not in any other Bibles that many. Here is just one verse example.

Matthew 28:19
(AMPC) Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(AMPC+) Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them N1into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(ASV) Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
(BBE) Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, giving them baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
(CEV) Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
(CSB) Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(ESV) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(ESV+) R10Go therefore and R11make disciples of R12all nations, R10baptizing them R13inN1 R14the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(GNB) Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
(Greek NT TR+) πορευθεντεςG4198 V-AOP-NPM ουνG3767 CONJ μαθητευσατεG3100 V-AAM-2P πανταG3956 A-APN ταG3588 T-APN εθνηG1484 N-APN βαπτιζοντεςG907 V-PAP-NPM αυτουςG846 P-APM ειςG1519 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN ονομαG3686 N-ASN τουG3588 T-GSM πατροςG3962 N-GSM καιG2532 CONJ τουG3588 T-GSM υιουG5207 N-GSM καιG2532 CONJ τουG3588 T-GSN αγιουG40 A-GSN πνευματοςG4151 N-GSN
(GW) So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
(HCSB) Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(ISV) Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
(KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(KJVA) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(MKJV) Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(MSG) Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
(NAS77) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(NASB) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(NIrV) So you must go and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
(NIV) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(NKJV) Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(NLT) Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
(RV) Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:
(TPT) Now go in my authority and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

What's the difference between a ghost and a spirit?

The Greek word here is...

πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
Total KJV occurrences: 385

A similar word, still used commonly in English today...

pneu·mat·ic
/n(y)o͞oˈmadik/

Learn to pronounce

See definitions in:
all

mechanics

zoology
adjective
adjective: pneumatic

1. 1.
   containing or operated by air or gas under pressure.
   "the machines with pneumatic loading are more efficient"
   • Zoology
     (chiefly of cavities in the bones of birds) containing air.
   • informal
     (of a woman) having large breasts.
     "a tattoo of a pneumatic girl"
2. 2.
   (chiefly in the context of New Testament theology) relating to the spirit.
   

noun
noun: pneumatic; plural noun: pneumatics

1. an item of pneumatic equipment.
   "as with most conventional pneumatics, you have to **** the bolt and load a pellet into the breech by hand before each shot"

 

[Reba1]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Checking out ghost in the OT it has to do with physical death. Spirit as in Gen1:2 does not.. Cant shake the thought it may have something to do with the fact Jesus gave up the Ghost He died. I think this is off track of the thread, although very interesting.

 

[Reba1]

I get what you are saying here. I agree to a point, but even Jesus didn't completely clear out the hospitals.

Matt 13:58; And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

I can't speak for Downunder, but I will say the hospitals here are no where near full. There are plenty of empty beds.
They've even lain off some health workers here since the Covid thing started.
While they still have plenty of sick, wounded people.... I do believe the church has reduced the load on hospitals.

To my understanding all healing comes from God. He uses what ever means He chooses. My niece was in a roll over car accident on the 8th She ruptured her C3 and C4 vertabrea and had surgery to fuse them together. She walked out of rehab on the 24th, Thank you to all the medical staff , but Praise the Lord God who health thee!

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Let me bump this thread up as it appears to be languishing
the real issue - the great controversy - about praying or speaking in tongues is about tongues being the Bible evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

yes, good to keep it fresh, thee thread ,that is.
However, the point of the thread is not about what you state as, "the real issue " there are a few other threads on various aspects of 'speaking in tongues' so if we can try to keep this one for the genuine dinkum study that it is menat to be, that would be helpful.

The thread is for taking a slow and if possible, methodical look at Scripture and study the 'speaking in tongues' thing [excuse my crudity of speech]

Can we go back to references that can be found in the Old Testament?

Thanks for those already shared. Are there any more?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Downunder]

Isaiah 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.
6:7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”
compare with James 3; the tongue is unruly and full of evil

 

[Br. Bear]

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
cited by Paul the apostle
1Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

perhaps it is beneficial to see where this comes from and the context more fully, within the chapter.

========

1Woe to the majestic crown of Ephraim’s (a) drunkards,
to the fading flower of his glorious splendor,
set on the summit above the fertile valley,
the pride of those overcome by wine.

2Behold, the Lord has one
who is strong and mighty.
Like a hailstorm or destructive tempest,
like a driving rain or flooding downpour,
he will smash that crown to the ground.

3The majestic crown of Ephraim’s drunkards
will be trampled underfoot.

4The fading flower of his beautiful splendor,
set on the summit above the fertile valley,
will be like a ripe fig before the summer harvest:
Whoever sees it will take it in his hand and swallow it.

5On that day the LORD of Hosts will be a crown of glory,
a diadem of splendor to the remnant of His people,

6a spirit of justice to him who sits in judgment,
and a strength to those who repel the onslaught at the gate.

7These also stagger from wine
and stumble from strong drink:
Priests and prophets reel from strong drink
and are befuddled by wine.
They stumble because of strong drink,
muddled in their visions and stumbling in their judgments.

8For all their tables are covered with vomit;
there is not a place without filth.

9Whom is He trying to teach?
To whom is He explaining His message?
To infants just weaned from milk?
To babies removed from the breast?

10For they hear: (b)

“Order on order, order on order,
line on line, line on line; (c)
a little here, a little there.”

11Indeed, with mocking lips and foreign tongues,
He will speak to this people (d) 12to whom He has said:
“This is the place of rest, let the weary rest;
this is the place of repose.”
But they would not listen.

13Then the word of the LORD to them will become:

“Order on order, order on order,
line on line, line on line;
a little here, a little there,”

so that they will go stumbling backward
and will be injured, ensnared, and captured.

{A Cornerstone in Zion
(1 Corinthians 3:10–15; Ephesians 2:19–22; 1 Peter 2:1–8) }

14Therefore hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.

15For you said, “We have made a covenant with death;
we have fashioned an agreement with Sheol.
When the overwhelming scourge passes through
it will not touch us,
because we have made lies our refuge
and falsehood (e) our hiding place.”

16So this is what the Lord GOD says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;
the one who believes will never be shaken. (f)

17I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the level.
Hail will sweep away your refuge of lies,
and water will flood your hiding place.

18Your covenant with death will be dissolved,
and your agreement with Sheol will not stand.
When the overwhelming scourge passes through,
you will be trampled by it.

19As often as it passes through,
it will carry you away;
it will sweep through morning after morning,
by day and by night.”
The understanding of this message
will bring sheer terror.

20Indeed, the bed is too short to stretch out on,
and the blanket too small to wrap around you.

21For the LORD will rise up as at Mount Perazim.
He will rouse Himself as in the Valley of Gibeon,
to do His work, His strange work,
and to perform His task, His disturbing task.

22So now, do not mock,
or your shackles will become heavier.
Indeed, I have heard from the Lord GOD of Hosts
a decree of destruction against the whole land.

{ Listen and Hear }

23Listen and hear my voice.
Pay attention and hear what I say.

24Does the plowman plow for planting every day?
Does he continuously loosen and harrow the soil?

25When he has leveled its surface,
does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin?
He plants wheat in rows and barley in plots,
and rye within its border.

26For his God instructs
and teaches him properly.

27Surely caraway is not threshed with a sledge,
and the wheel of a cart is not rolled over the cumin.
But caraway is beaten out with a stick,
and cumin with a rod.

28Grain for bread must be ground,
but it is not endlessly threshed.
Though the wheels of the cart roll over it,
the horses do not crush it.

29This also comes from the LORD of Hosts,
who is wonderful in counsel
and excellent in wisdom.


Footnotes:

1 a That is, the northern kingdom of Israel; also in verse 3
10 b Or For He says ; or For it is ; literally For 
10 c Or Do this, do that, a rule for this, a rule for that ; Hebrew sav lasav sav lasav kav lakav kav lakav  (possibly meaningless sounds to demonstrate an inability to understand); also in verse 13
11 d Cited in 1 Corinthians 14:21
15 e Or false gods 
16 f LXX will never be put to shame ; cited in Romans 9:33, Romans 10:11, and 1 Peter 2:6

From: The Berean Bible (www.Berean.Bible) Berean Study Bible (BSB)

======

and if possible, what do we see is being said in this chapter regarding the verses quoted?

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
cited by Paul the apostle
1Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Can we look at this without 'trying to fit in' anything else.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

It appears that we don't as yet find many verses about 'speaking in tongues' in the Old Testament.

What are some Old Testament verses/passages about 'speaking in tongues'?

Perhaps if we broaden the scope a bit
What are some Old Testament verses/passages about about Languages, please.

but let us use some common sense and try to keep references to the subject of 'speaking in tongues' and to be non-biased in doing so, for a genuine study [rather than pushing any particular doctrine/teaching].


Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[PearlB]

Greetings,

over the years there have been a number of threads about 'Speaking in Tongues'

Sadly there have been all too many fights and and not nearly enough love and care in real building up and real Bible study.

This thread is here as an opportunity for all Members to join in and for all to be able to discuss what the Bible says, which might include what it doesn't say and to encourage you all to be brave enough to look at this subject together, not divided.

Over the years, there have been plenty of things said in Christian circles both for and against 'speaking in tongues'.
Something is missing from both sides, i submit, and i invite you to join with each other, in love, to talk about this subject productively.


Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

The importance of speaking in tongues.

I may have shared this before but I believe there to be four basic manifestations of the gift of tongues.

• Tongues for personal edification. (1 Corinthians 14:4) This is the supernatural language the Holy Spirit prays through us that we can use to pray hour after hour if we desire. It often accompanies the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
• Tongues which require an interpretation. (1 Corinthians 14:5) This manifestation of tongues is normally presented in a public assembly accompanied by an interpretation by the same or another person. (Romans 8:26)
• Tongues of deep intercessional groaning. (Romans 8:26) This diversification of tongues empowers the believers to stand in the gap for their own lives, their families, their church, their city, their nation etc. God may also call on them to intercede for someone or for some situation that is totally unknown.
• Tongues as a sign to unbelievers. (1 Corinthians 14:22) This is the phenomenon that took place on the day of Pentecost. (Acts2:4-11) It occurs when the Holy Spirit transcends the intellect and all language barriers by empowering a believer to preach, teach or testify about Christ in some language of man of which the believer himself has no knowledge.
• I have also found that singing in tongues to praise and worship is another lovely way we can use the gift .
• And praying in tongues silently either in support of another person who is ‘ministering’ or in a public place is another way of using this gift.

I have come under fire on some Christian sites for expressing these views but I firmly believe them.

 

[PearlB]

What are some Old Testament verses/passages about 'speaking in tongues'?

Surely there aren't any as the gifts of the Holy Spirit - including the gift of tongues - were only given after Jesus had ascended into heaven.

 

[Reba1]

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Greetings,

over the years there have been a number of threads about 'Speaking in Tongues'

Sadly there have been all too many fights and and not nearly enough love and care in real building up and real Bible study.

This thread is here as an opportunity for all Members to join in and for all to be able to discuss what the Bible says, which might include what it doesn't say and to encourage you all to be brave enough to look at this subject together, not divided.

Over the years, there have been plenty of things said in Christian circles both for and against 'speaking in tongues'.
Something is missing from both sides, i submit, and i invite you to join with each other, in love, to talk about this subject productively.


Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

The Bible names speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues as separate gifts. The Bible never says that, as proof of regeneration, one must speak in tongues. Sadly, some denominations demand speaking in tongues as evidenxe of regeneration. Even more sad is the awful displays some charismatic assembies promote as spirit-filled people speaking in tongues when in reality it's just a lot of gibberish, barking, shouting, and howling.

Some speak several languages fluently, and it seems natural for those persons, and these are known languages. That is truly the Spirit at work.

 

[Downunder]

The Bible names speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues as separate gifts. The Bible never says that, as proof of regeneration, one must speak in tongues. Sadly, some denominations demand speaking in tongues as evidence of regeneration. Even more sad is the awful displays some charismatic assemblies promote as spirit-filled people speaking in tongues when in reality it's just a lot of gibberish, barking, shouting, and howling.
Some speak several languages fluently, and it seems natural for those persons, and these are known languages. That is truly the Spirit at work.

Well it did not take long for the cessationists to crawl out of the woodwork and to start their hateful condemnation of others.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Well it did not take long for the cessationists to crawl out of the woodwork and to start their hateful condemnation of others.

Brother,

I condemn no one, but I do discern. We are given the power of a sound mind, bro. When the Bible makes clear statements on tongues, I look no further than the HOLY WORD to discern whether that gift is truly present or whether it is not.

Kindly inform how you determine whether someone has the gift on tongues?

 

[Reba1]

Well it did not take long for the cessationists to crawl out of the woodwork and to start their hateful condemnation of others.

"The Bible names speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues as separate gifts" what is cessationists about that statement? what is hateful condemnation in that statement
" Sadly, some denominations demand speaking in tongues as evidence of regeneration. " what is cessationists about that statement? what is hateful condemnation in that statement

"Even more sad is the awful displays some charismatic assemblies promote as spirit-filled people speaking in tongues when in reality it's just a lot of gibberish, barking, shouting, and howling." what is cessationists about that statement? what is hateful condemnation in that statement

"Some speak several languages fluently, and it seems natural for those persons, and these are known languages. That is truly the Spirit at work." what is cessationists about these statements? what is hateful condemnation in these statements

 

[Reba1]

@Downunder As God had Paul write...

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. . . . .
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[Downunder]

 

[Reba1]

Why not just answer @Downunder ?