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Televised Baptist Church-Demo's

Well put bother, on all accounts.

I have come across some Christians who have dishonoured God in the company of my unsaved husband, no wonder he's confused.

He even knows what is expected and tells me these people call themselves Christian.

It makes the unsaved think along the lines 'well if their Christian then so am I' and they can't be faulted either, for they don't see anything differant from what way they live, so your so right on that brother.

A lovely Christian lady once told me the first person to tell you if your not doing what's Christian is the unsaved, and I've found her words to be very true.
The media don't seem to show what we stand for in Jesus.
Perhaps they wouldn't get the ratings on that angle.
 
Hatred and God - a study

How does telling someone "God hates homosexuals" actually glorify God?

Do most humans have a "good" concept of hatred, as if there's ever a time for hatred to be "ok"?

Will these unsaved masses suddenly think God is great because He hates them or will they think He's being arbitrary and hate Him right back?

We, being human, really aren't capable of hating and loving someone at the same time without troubles. The hate sits on one side of a scale and the love on another and eventually one overcomes the other and things might get messy. Hate is like yeast - a little bit tends to ferment the whole lump.

Therefore the Lord commanded us:

Leviticus 19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

So we are not allowed to hate people, but we are expected to call them out if we know they are sinning.

----------------

Does God hate homosexuals (or anyone else)?

The word "hate" (or words translated as hate) come up 179 times in the KJV.

Of those times, the only instances I could find for God hating people were here:

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Now this is interesting because it's David writing it, and it's one of his earliest psalms.

But David was a King -- not a Prophet. I do believe David was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write these psalms, but that just does not mean that every word of them should be taken as on par with Scriptural insight by prophecy or commandment. That was not David's office. He was not anointed in that way.

Does David grow in his understanding of God as his life continues?

Well...in Psalm 11:5 David writes ... The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Does God even have a soul? ... again is David writing the way the Apostles and Prophets did...or is he writing his *human* thoughts, feelings, emotions, and edifications as a growing and developing person. He's seeing God as a Person, which is good...but perhaps he is lowering God to the tiny box that we fill up as people...which is not so good.

By Psalm 45:7 David writes ... Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness....

Now God never changes...so either God hates wicked people as in psalm 5, or God hates wickedness as in psalm 45. To be fair, the two are not mutually exclusive. God could hate wickedness and the wicked....

But it really does appear to me that what changed over time was David's understanding of God.

By Psalm 119:104 David confirms that *he* was learning the difference between hating evil and hating people. .... "Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way."

And yet, by Psalm 139 David speaks of how *he* hates those who hate God. It's written in very sincere tones -- but it's wrong according to the commandment given by God to not hate one's brother. David was transgressing by endulging hatred.

David wasn't perfect. His imperfections in understanding (and action!) are recorded in the Bible because sometimes we need to have a record of what NOT to do.

David writes at least 11 more psalms...and not once in any of them does he speak again of either him or God hating anyone.

David's son Solomon picks up in the Proverbs...and he speaks of things the Lord hates...but not people.

Solomon does warn us that hating people often leads to the additional transgression of lying and further abominations (all 7 in fact apparently)...because most of us will lie rather than come out and say who or what we hate:

Proverbs 26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him; 25When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.

-----

It is interesting to note that there is no reference at all in the New Testament for God hating anyone.

In Romans 4 Paul quotes the passage from Malachi where God says he loved Jacob but hated Esau, but he does so specifically from the standpoint of making *sense* of this apparently arbitrary dissemination of love and hatred.

Between Malachi and Romans, it really seems to me that Jacob and Esau are being used as "surnames" to indicate the two nations that would rise out of those lines -- not the specific men.

Having said all of that, I believe it is possible that God -- having thoughts which are not our thoughts and ways which are not our ways -- may indeed be able to hate and love someone at the same time in a way mortal humans would not be able to do.

But so what?

Jesus did not say to us "Go out and tell the world that my Father hates wicked people."

Well WE ARE ALL WICKED PEOPLE until the moment of being born again. Even then, we work out the sin that remains in our flesh until our Lord makes us perfect in body as well as spirit.

Spreading hatred is not fulfiling the Great Commission.

That's just spewing vitriol that I highly doubt will ever bring anyone to the Lord...and I fully expect it will push some people further away.
 
God's Hatred/Our Hatred

Having said all of that, I believe it is possible that God -- having thoughts which are not our thoughts and ways which are not our ways -- may indeed be able to hate and love someone at the same time in a way mortal humans would not be able to do.

I think we need to note the difference between God's hatred and our human hatred. They both involve intense emotion,but, the similarity ends there.

We humans all too often direct unrighteous hatred (condemnation) at the sinner, all the time convincing ourselves that we are being righteous in doing so.However, God always acts out of pure love. We know this because 1 John 4:8 tells us that "God IS love." This means that God's hate comes out of His perfect righteousness and is aimed at sin, not the sinner and it has never been His will that any human should perish.

"He (the Lord) is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence." (2 Pet 3:9b)

"But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Ro 5:8)

SLE
 
There is no way I could judge this pastor, church, or their ministries unless I saw/heard them myself and prayed for the discernment of the Holy Spirit. Reading all this is like trying to decipher hearsay.

Homosexuality is wrong. In the United States, we are persecuted strongly for saying so.

Women kiss each other regularly on t.v. programs now...in fiction stories and in real life programs. One t.v. commercial that ran for awhile had two men crouching under a chair flirting with each other. It was a liquor commercial. I tried to change channels every time I heard that music. I was horrified for my children to see it. Finally, enough people complained that it stopped.

Acceptance of homosexuality is very widespread in United States in these days and times. Someone needs to say it is sin. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to do that publicly. So until I have actually seen/watched/prayed about this Westboro Baptist Church, I will withhold my judgement.
 
Jannette
I throughly enjoyed reading your post.

Strangely enough when I would read the Psalms I used to wonder at David's words, much hatred spoken of.

I agree that telling people that God hates them only arises hatred in them, that is understandable, it is only after Salvation that if someone told you they hated you, you could answer with but I love you, the unsaved in the flesh would just retaliate hate with hate.

God showed tremendous love for us all sending His only son to die for us.

I didn't start out by meaning us to judge these people, I was only curious on our thoughts of the way they were portraying 'God is love' as God hates .....

Have loved reading all your comments though. Thank you.
 
I recall seeing video footage of this demonstration. As I remember it, there were only a few people engaged in it. And I think they were all members of one family, standing on a street corner somewhere in Kansas waving their inflammatory signs and yelling at passing motorists (none of whom stopped to listen to them).

SLE
 
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That's right SLE
one motorist did slow down to speak to them, he said I agree with you on the Homosexual part, and they just yelled at him how God hates them, he just drove off, shaking his head.

But that's just what they did, waved their placards and yelled at people, not preaching, just plain yelling, so people yelled back at them, using bad language too.

This scripture comes to mind, Proverbs 15 v 1
A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievious words stir up anger.
 
I am a member of a wonderful Southern Baptist church, and none of us would even consider saying some of the things that Westboro Baptist says. God loves each and every one of us. That does not mean he loves the sin.. He expects us to love the sinner but not the sin. We are All sinners, and in God's eyes, all sin is equal to the other. Lying is no less a a sin than the act of homosexuality... all sin is an abomination to God. ALL of it.

There are two people in our community that are Gay. I love them both, but they also know I do not approve of their lifestyle. One of them has a companion, but they do not reside under the same roof. She too is a Southern Baptist at another church. I am not ashamed to know her and in fact will invite her to sit with me on the occasions that she visits our church. And I hug her in greeting as I do anyone else in our church family. She is well thought of by a majority of folks in our community.

I don't have the right to hate anyone. I have the right to disapprove of their lifestyle, but until I live my life in a perfect way as Jesus did, then I will not even think of casting a stone.
 
I have attended a Baptist Church myself, which preaches also the opposite to the preaching of Westboro Church.

I don't believe for one minute it counts all 'Baptist' Churches under the same cloak as this one not for one minute.

Who are we indeed to cast the first stone,

Psalm 53 v 3
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

It's sad that this side of what they call Christianity has to be shown by the media, just giving it again bad publisity.

Psalm 118 v 6
The Lord is on my side, I will not fear, what can man do unto me?
 
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