The Bible and the Word of God

[Christ4Ever]

They must not slander anyone and must avoid quarreling. Instead, they should be gentle and show true humility to everyone. Titus 3:2 NLT

There is difficulty in doing this, when you are in the midst of a debate on Scripture. Lines get drawn, and righteous indignation comes to the surface in many of these back-and-forts. Please, just don't let it get to the place that making a point is more important than the love you have and show in word/deed to another who in most cases are followers of Jesus Christ just as you are.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Oseas]

JESUS said: John 10:30 - > I (the Word made flesh) and My Father (the Word) are One. -> Two distincts persons.

Hebrews 1:3 - > Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of the Person of GOD, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[Dylan569]

Is there anything we Christians will not argue about?! No wonder it is said that Christianity is a dying religion!

"You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." Joh 8:44 NRSVue

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

"You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." Joh 8:44 NRSVue

Your point?

 

[Dylan569]

Your point?

My point? It was a reply to what you had stated in reply #37, which I admittedly misread. You wrote -

"Is there anything we Christians will not argue about?! No wonder it is said that Christianity is a dying religion!"

I missed the "we Christians" which you wrote which gives the statement a very clear statement which I misread. I thought you were an atheistic skeptic denying the faith of Christ.

AGAIN, I HOPE YOU WILL ACCEPT MY SINCERE APOLOGY, FOR MY REPLY TO YOU WAS VERY HARSH

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

My point? It was a reply to what you had stated in reply #37, which I admittedly misread. You wrote -

"Is there anything we Christians will not argue about?! No wonder it is said that Christianity is a dying religion!"

I missed the "we Christians" which you wrote which gives the statement a very clear statement which I misread. I thought you were an atheistic skeptic denying the faith of Christ.

AGAIN, I HOPE YOU WILL ACCEPT MY SINCERE APOLOGY, FOR MY REPLY TO YOU WAS VERY HARSH

Apology accepted

 

[Rhema]

You are going off on a dangerous trail with this kind of thinking.

Tim 3:16 All scripture is God-breathed.

Every single word and line in scripture is anointed by God.

Well, you missed the "Second Timothy" part. And you've obviously been snowed by the most evil heinous English translations in all Christendom.

Maybe I'll post my essay on this topic, maybe I won't. But do you have ears to hear? (I wonder.) Let's first look at the KJV:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

(2 Timothy 3:16 KJV)

Now I really hope you are aware that italicized words in the KJV are NOT present in the Greek. They are added, like those I've put in bold. (Isn't dangerous to add in words?) So right off the bat, the verb "IS" isn't there. In addition, verse 16 is not a separate sentence. It's a clause that starts in verse 15. So what does the text really say? You tell me....

και οτι απο βρεφους τα ιερα γραμματα οιδας τα δυναμενα σε σοφισαι εις σωτηριαν δια πιστεως της εν χριστω ιησου πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγχον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν την εν δικαιοσυνη ​

I'd provide the translation, step by step, but I don't need nor want further scathing insults from you. So let's just look as the ASV.

and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus - every scripture inspired of God also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:​

(2 Timothy 3:15-16 ASV)

So no, NOT ALL.

Is there scripture inspired of God? Yes. Is there any translation inspired of God? NO. That's why I decided to learn the Greek language over 50 years ago.

What are you then?

It's not possible for you to understand. And I doubt that you even want to.

What denomination are you?

Always thinking in black and white, you are. I see in color. I wish you could, but you would not understand. (You won't let yourself, and I'm not sure you can let yourself.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

It is true that Dr. Alfred Marshall in a footnote indicates that rhema refers to the Spirit, not the sword; but of course with no explanation or commentary.

Well that's a bald faced lie. SHAME on you. (You should be ashamed.)

If I was given permission, I'd post a photograph of the footnote that SHOWS the explanation. But I see you won't admit to NOT knowing the Greek language. (C'mon, confession is good for the soul, you know.)

Here is the footnote in its entirety:

* Neuter, agreeing with πνεῦμα, not feminine to agree with μάχαιρα.​

Now if you don't know the simple elements of Greek grammar, and yet think to challenge me, you should just hang it up. The modifier of a modifying clause in Greek must match the gender of the noun which it modifies.

This is simple grammar. Every first year Greek student learns this.

The book of Ephesians by H. C. G. Moule, M.A., 1893

So to refute Marshall who has a PhD, you come up with some guy from 1893 who only has an MA ? And you think yourself so learned that you just cannot distinguish the amount of horse pucky in his "explanation" ???

It's worthless, of course, to argue with Moule. But what you posted is so convoluted in its attempts, that I truly feel pity for both the author and any unfortunate students that he has confused.

Now I've posted for you a link to the accurate translations of Eph 6:17,18. But again, I BEG you to enlighten us all and provide yours -

και την περικεφαλαιαν του σωτηριου δεξασθε και την μαχαιραν του πνευματος ο εστιν ρημα θεου δια πασης προσευχης και δεησεως προσευχομενοι εν παντι καιρω εν πνευματι και εις αυτο τουτο αγρυπνουντες εν παση προσκαρτερησει και δεησει περι παντων των αγιων ​

Perhaps God will enlighten your understanding to know that the Sword IN THIS epistle is prayer.

Just don't think you know it all, sir,
Rhema

(And you should apologize.)

a very clear statement which I misread

That wasn't the only think you misread, and misrepresented.

 

[KingJ]

Rhema, what Christian denomination are you?

It's not possible for you to understand. And I doubt that you even want to.

 

[Rhema]

Let me point out something that I said a while back and will point out again, you are reckless with the Word of God!

Charlie, first, thank you for your concern. I am deeply touched that you have my welfare in mind. (I am.) But we have differing perspectives about what constitutes "recklessness."

But again I need to ask you, which "Word of God" am I being reckless with? And the question is not only quite valid, it's the basis of my thread since there are two of them - there are two "Word of God"(s) taught in the New Testament.

Now I don't think I need to ask if you know that the New Testament texts were written in Greek. ( Of course you know that.)

But in Greek, there is the phrase "TON LOGON TOU THEOU," which is translated into English as "The Word of God".

Making the word of God (TON LOGON TOU THEOU) of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.​

(Mark 7:13 KJV)

The noun is LOGOS, and that's the first "Word of God."

However, there is also the phrase "RHEMA THEOU" in Greek, which is ALSO translated into English as "The Word of God".

Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God (RHEMA THEOU) came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.​

(Luke 3:2 KJV)

The noun is RHEMA, and that's the second "Word of God."

It's pretty obvious that if a person can only read English, then he absolutely cannot see whether a passage in scripture is talking about the LOGOS of God or the RHEMA of God, since both are translated as the "Word of God". Again, both LOGOS and RHEMA are translated into WORD.

The problem with that is LOGOS and RHEMA are not the same thing. They are two different concepts, which is why two different Greek words are used.

The Word of God, then, is not the same as the Word of God; MEANING.... The Word(LOGOS) of God, is not the same thing as the Word(RHEMA) of God.

Who then is being reckless? Me? Someone who has taken the time to learn the language in which the New Testament texts were written? So that I can literally see the difference between the LOGOS and the RHEMA? Or others, who absolutely cannot differentiate between LOGOS and RHEMA, because of evil translations and lazy pastors?

So please let me know. Am I being reckless with the LOGOS of God? Or the RHEMA of God?

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Back in vs.6 Paul said that what he was about to say was "by permission" from the Lord and not by commandment of the Lord.

And yet the words "about to say" is not present in the text. (I think that's a bit reckless.) And you then added in "commandment of the Lord" into verse six, when that too isn't there. (Isn't adding in words VERY reckless?)

But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment.​

(1 Corinthians 7:6 NKJV)

We're reading the same text, Charlie. Where does it say, "But I'm about to say..." ??? And where does it say, "commandment of the Lord"?

And just what is Paul saying by "concession"? This, verse 5 is what he's saying as "concession":

Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.​

(1 Corinthians 7:5 NKJV)

And he was also saying the following "by concession":

Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.​

(1 Corinthians 7:1 NKJV)

Now please forgive me if cannot remember whether or not you are a King James Only person. I wish I could remember, because I'd rather not waste the time to discuss the word "permission" if such is the case. But perhaps it is not.

What the KJV renders as "permission" and the NKJV renders as "concession" is the Greek word συγγνώμη G4774. And so...

I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4474.

A.fellow-feeling, forbearance, lenient judgement, allowance​

Paul was allowing a number of things in forbearance, one of which was "You shouldn't have sex, but whatever...., since y'all lack self-control. You should be celibate like me, but I'm not giving you a command. I'll allow it (sex)."

And finally in verse 12, Paul clearly states that what he is saying right then and there is NOT from the Lord.

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.​

(1 Corinthians 7:12 NKJV)

Really, how is that not clear ?? Why even add the phrase, "not the Lord" if it wasn't "not the Lord" ??

Since it's "not the Lord," verse 12 is the Word of Paul, Charlie, not the Word of the Lord. Paul literally said that.

Now I'm not going to pretend that I've changed your mind (regardless of what's actually written). It was the most obvious and simple proof text I could think of for the OP, and I just cannot fathom how you got from "not the Lord" to "from the Lord."

Perplexedly yours,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Insulting the authenticity of scripture is insulting God.

And what about adding in words? What about taking two Greek words and con-fusing them together by using a single English word in translation?

Do you believe God's helping hand has not been on the bible all these years? Of course it has!!

You may wish to familiarize yourself with the study of Textual Criticism. (But God forbid that KJ admits he doesn't know something. )

A scholar of high repute, Dr. Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary, has undertaken the prestigious endeavor of compiling a high resolution digital library containing each and every fragment of any New Testament manuscript ever found.

The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts

www.csntm.org

@KingJ, as the original manuscripts were copied, and copies made of the copies, and then copies of copies of copies, made, did your "God's helping hand" keep mistakes from being made? Of course not. One can place two ancient manuscripts side by side and literally see the differences that are called "variants." Sometimes words are misspelled. Sometimes words are left out. And sometimes words are put in.

So when you are looking at two manuscripts side by side, and there is a variant, which one is the right one? Guess what? YOU can't tell.

Even Jeremiah was outraged that the scribes (the copyists) altered the TORAH. Was Jeremiah wrong?

How can you say, "We are wise, and the TORAH of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

So yes, God's hand WAS present, by having His prophet declare that the scriptures were meddled with. The thing is, God's hand doesn't necessarily move the way YOU want it to.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Paul told us that ALL Scripture is inspired by God.

No, he didn't. Paul told you this:

και οτι απο βρεφους τα ιερα γραμματα οιδας τα δυναμενα σε σοφισαι εις σωτηριαν δια πιστεως της εν χριστω ιησου πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγχον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν την εν δικαιοσυνη

And the translation you've been given is mutilated beyond belief.

There should be no doubt as to the purity of the Scripture, and there won't be if the faith is proper.

Proper faith is not fantasy, Charlie.

So what do you mean by "purity" ??

If ALL your translations are pure, why do you have so many?
If ALL your copies of the Greek manuscripts are pure, why are there variants?
If Martin Luther's translation of the Bible into German was pure, why did he purposefully alter two verses?
If your scripture is pure, why did God proclaim through the prophet Jeremiah that the scribes changed the words making the TORAH into a lie?

So what do YOU mean by "pure"?

Your brother in IRON,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Jesus Christ is the one and only (singular) Word of God. Scriptures that were God-breathed point to the one and only true Word of God who is Jesus Christ himself. All scriptures testify, and point to Jesus Christ who is called the Word of God.

LOGOS, Curtis. The LOGOS of God. Jesus is indeed the LOGOS of God. The RHEMA of God, however, is something quite different.

And the angels in heaven will rejoice when you learn of the RHEMA of God, to know that the RHEMA is not the LOGOS.



Rhema
(which by itself just means, "my saying")

 

[KingJ]

And what about adding in words? What about taking two Greek words and con-fusing them together by using a single English word in translation?


You may wish to familiarize yourself with the study of Textual Criticism. (But God forbid that KJ admits he doesn't know something. )

A scholar of high repute, Dr. Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary, has undertaken the prestigious endeavor of compiling a high resolution digital library containing each and every fragment of any New Testament manuscript ever found.

The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts

www.csntm.org

@KingJ, as the original manuscripts were copied, and copies made of the copies, and then copies of copies of copies, made, did your "God's helping hand" keep mistakes from being made? Of course not. One can place two ancient manuscripts side by side and literally see the differences that are called "variants." Sometimes words are misspelled. Sometimes words are left out. And sometimes words are put in.

So when you are looking at two manuscripts side by side, and there is a variant, which one is the right one? Guess what? YOU can't tell.

Even Jeremiah was outraged that the scribes (the copyists) altered the TORAH. Was Jeremiah wrong?

How can you say, "We are wise, and the TORAH of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

So yes, God's hand WAS present, by having His prophet declare that the scriptures were meddled with. The thing is, God's hand doesn't necessarily move the way YOU want it to.

Kindly,
Rhema

Simple questions and yet you run to the south pole and grab a polar bear.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, first, thank you for your concern. I am deeply touched that you have my welfare in mind. (I am.) But we have differing perspectives about what constitutes "recklessness."

But again I need to ask you, which "Word of God" am I being reckless with? And the question is not only quite valid, it's the basis of my thread since there are two of them - there are two "Word of God"(s) taught in the New Testament.

Now I don't think I need to ask if you know that the New Testament texts were written in Greek. ( Of course you know that.)

But in Greek, there is the phrase "TON LOGON TOU THEOU," which is translated into English as "The Word of God".

Making the word of God (TON LOGON TOU THEOU) of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.​

(Mark 7:13 KJV)

The noun is LOGOS, and that's the first "Word of God."

However, there is also the phrase "RHEMA THEOU" in Greek, which is ALSO translated into English as "The Word of God".

Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God (RHEMA THEOU) came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.​

(Luke 3:2 KJV)

The noun is RHEMA, and that's the second "Word of God."

It's pretty obvious that if a person can only read English, then he absolutely cannot see whether a passage in scripture is talking about the LOGOS of God or the RHEMA of God, since both are translated as the "Word of God". Again, both LOGOS and RHEMA are translated into WORD.

The problem with that is LOGOS and RHEMA are not the same thing. They are two different concepts, which is why two different Greek words are used.

The Word of God, then, is not the same as the Word of God; MEANING.... The Word(LOGOS) of God, is not the same thing as the Word(RHEMA) of God.

Who then is being reckless? Me? Someone who has taken the time to learn the language in which the New Testament texts were written? So that I can literally see the difference between the LOGOS and the RHEMA? Or others, who absolutely cannot differentiate between LOGOS and RHEMA, because of evil translations and lazy pastors?

So please let me know. Am I being reckless with the LOGOS of God? Or the RHEMA of God?

Kindly,
Rhema

Everyone here knows exactly what i meant. You have to take this route.

Typical!

 

[Charlie24]

No, he didn't. Paul told you this:

και οτι απο βρεφους τα ιερα γραμματα οιδας τα δυναμενα σε σοφισαι εις σωτηριαν δια πιστεως της εν χριστω ιησου πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγχον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν την εν δικαιοσυνη

And the translation you've been given is mutilated beyond belief.


Proper faith is not fantasy, Charlie.

So what do you mean by "purity" ??

If ALL your translations are pure, why do you have so many?
If ALL your copies of the Greek manuscripts are pure, why are there variants?
If Martin Luther's translation of the Bible into German was pure, why did he purposefully alter two verses?
If your scripture is pure, why did God proclaim through the prophet Jeremiah that the scribes changed the words making the TORAH into a lie?

So what do YOU mean by "pure"?

Your brother in IRON,
Rhema

Ok, Rhema, you have doubt in the Scripture, we see that everyday in your posts!

If you insist on being negative toward Scripture then have at it.

That's between you and the Lord.

If anyone comes here and reads your posts, will their faith in the Bible be strengthened?

I think not!

 

[twcstp]

They must not slander anyone and must avoid quarreling. Instead, they should be gentle and show true humility to everyone. Titus 3:2 NLT

There is difficulty in doing this, when you are in the midst of a debate on Scripture. Lines get drawn, and righteous indignation comes to the surface in many of these back-and-forts. Please, just don't let it get to the place that making a point is more important than the love you have and show in word/deed to another who in most cases are followers of Jesus Christ just as you are.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

I'm quoting this because it's absolutely true ! God bless,

 

[Curtis]

LOGOS, Curtis. The LOGOS of God. Jesus is indeed the LOGOS of God. The RHEMA of God, however, is something quite different.

And the angels in heaven will rejoice when you learn of the RHEMA of God, to know that the RHEMA is not the LOGOS.



Rhema
(which by itself just means, "my saying")

Jesus who is the "Logos" of God speaks the "Rhema" of God.

The Rhema of God are the words of God the Father as Jesus only speaks the words of His Father.

 

[Rhema]

Everyone here knows exactly what i meant.

Well first, I'm not everyone. And Yes, they do know what you mean because in essence you're using the "cult vocabulary" of everyone here, not the vocabulary that is found in the actual manuscripts of the New Testament texts.

Y'all have your own little special terms and definitions that are unique to your religion. Terms that are applied TO the Bible, rather than being drawn from them. Don't expect me to use any personal lingo or parlance of yours that clutters up the themes that are found in the Bible.

Remember, you came at me with an accusation that needed to be addressed.

Let me point out something that I said a while back and will point out again, you are reckless with the Word of God!

If you mean BIBLE, then say Bible, Charlie. But Bible and Word of God aren't the same thing. IN your Bible it talks about the Word of God, both the Word (LOGOS) of God and the Word (RHEMA) of God.

So which word am I reckless with? Explain your allegation or apologize. Am I reckless with the LOGOS of God or with the RHEMA of God?

Let me know, and I'll address your concern,
Kindly,
Rhema