The bible

[aaroncam85]

ok, as some of you may know, i started a thread entitled "Is God all knowing" the origional question was

"the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?"

I have been speaking to many people about this question and wrestling with it myself. i thought it would be good to share with you where i have got to personally with it all.

my question has not been answered directly; or in a way that has seemed satisfactory, however i have come to believe (more in my heart) that maybe we as Christians have mis interpreted the bible or that it has been corrupted over the years.

i do however believe now for certain that there is one true God and that we have a need for Jesus and the Holy Spirit, this i feel is concrete.

but

do you think (and this is just a question), that we should now seek to hear God more through the work of the Holy Spirit than through the Bible?

the Pharisees and teachers of the law seem to of got a lot of the scriptures they had studied wrong and Jesus came to re address that, does the Holy Spirit now work to re address the way we have interpreted and taught the Bible?

 

[David777]

Hello aaroncam85.

I noticed this line.

"the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?"

I think the answer you are seeking is as follows.

God acts in love at all times aaron.

God creates in pure love.

We fall, God rescues.

We definitely were not created as fallen creatures,
we chose to reject God.

Does it really matter whether God knows some will
reject His Son?

Does love consider the options before it acts?

God is way beyond our understanding and way
beyond futile definitions.

Do parents resist having children due to fear that
one of their offspring may end up a bad apple?

There are questions that have answers, but there
are certainly questions far beyond the human
mind's ability to answer.

The answer will always be Jesus and His Love for us
that is beyond measure.

 

[B-A-C]

my question has not been answered directly; or in a way that has seemed satisfactory, however i have come to believe (more in my heart) that maybe we as Christians have mis interpreted the bible or that it has been corrupted over the years.

do you think (and this is just a question), that we should now seek to hear God more through the work of the Holy Spirit than through the Bible?

the Pharisees and teachers of the law seem to of got a lot of the scriptures they had studied wrong and Jesus came to re address that, does the Holy Spirit now work to re address the way we have interpreted and taught the Bible?

I've never considered the Bible and Holy Spirit to be mutually exclusive. If you read something in the Bible and it stirs a truth or conviction or inspires you to change your life or to love someone else unconditionally, was it the words in the Bible or was it the Holy Spirit working in you and revealing those words to your heart or was it both?
The Bible is the main way God speaks to us, the Spirit is how God reveals it to us.

I've heard the Bible has gotten corrupted over the years, I myself have a Bible over 300 years old. (KJV) It's exactly the same as the KJV Bible printed today. There is no differences. There are (Latin) Bible in existence at a couple of locations from the 7th Century. Again, many scholars have gone through them many times through the years and found no discrepancies. So people will say well, whatever was changed was changed before then. Finally we have the dead sea scrolls from the 1st century. WE don't have all of the chapters of all of the books, but the ones we do have are amazingly consistent with the Bible of today. Even Christian scholars were amazed at how accurate our Bibles currently are.

Isaiah 40:8 and 1 Peter 1:25 assure us that God's Word doesn't change.

If our God is powerful enough to "control the course of the stars" and the "path of rivers" and tells the ocean "where to stop" at the edge of the land. If you really believe he created all the trillions of trillions of stars and galaxies, and that there is not a grain of sand on any beach in the world that God did not specifically place there. That every single raindrops falls exactly where God ordains. If God really is all powerful and in control (of at least our circumstances, if not our decisions) then he is certainly powerful enough to make sure satan and the world don't change the Bible.

Oh there are counterfeits out there to be sure. The pearl of great price, the book of mormon, the watchtower society doctrines, certain catechisms of the roman catholic church, but none of these call themselves "The Bible". This is changing just in the last couple of years. We now have the "gay" Bible and the "non-gender" Bible and even the "no-sin" Bible. True Christians know the difference.

This is why we need to be in the Word and studying it as often as possible.

Others will say, well what about all the different translations. KJV, ASB, NRSV, NASB, NIV. NLT, etc...

I look at it this way, I once saw a movie back in the 70's called "Le Miserables", I then saw another version of the same movie made in the late 80s, and finally I saw the movie yet again about 5 years ago.

The three versions had different actors and actresses in them, they were all three filmed at different locations, and all of the words and dialog weren't exactly the same. Yet everyone I know who has seen any version of the movie and explains it to you will agree with the other versions.

Finally some "Bibles" don't say they are direct translations. Bible's such as "The Message" are what is called paraphrased Bibles. The authors admit, this is what "we believe God meant".

Some of it is just preference.

I personally read the New American Standard, it has been called by current Greek and Hebrew scholars to be "the closest to the original".
Others will choose (or not choose) a specific version because of a certain phrase. For example the NIV just uses the word "him" in some verses where other Bibles say "Jesus".

As someone who has been reading the Bible for close to 50 years and owns over a dozen translations, I am confident the Bible hasn't changed.

 

[aaroncam85]

i accept the arguement that historically the Bible as we have it today is one of the most reliable books and is supported by the dead sea scrolls and other sources.

My initial thread "is God all knowing" has to be taken into consideration in order to understand this thread.

in the previous thread i came to the conclusion that the Bible presents a contradictory idea of God for the following reason,

the Bible says that God is all knowing; i took from this that God knew before He created mankind that some of us would end up in hell.

then, the Bible also presents God as loving, but how can He be loving if He created man knowing (not sending) some would go to hell.

i then felt that the Bible must be wrong as i know in my heart that there is a God and as i mentioned above, a need for Jesus.

so now i am seeking to find out what has gone wrong or if there is an answer.

 

[B-A-C]

in the previous thread i came to the conclusion that the Bible presents a contradictory idea of God for the following reason,

the Bible says that God is all knowing; i took from this that God knew before He created mankind that some of us would end up in hell.

then, the Bible also presents God as loving, but how can He be loving if He created man knowing (not sending) some would go to hell.

I think there is more "world view" here than simply whether we believe God is all knowing.

I would ask if you have any children? What does this have to do with anything?

When our children are younger, we try to "mold" them. We want them to be like us,we want them to be moral, self sufficient, make good decisions, and "do the right thing". Those of us who are Christians want our children (and others) to be Christians also.

We love them enough to punish them for doing the wrong things and breaking our rules. God is much like this also.

When our children get older, we hope they will move out, raise a family of their own and the human race moves forward. There is something called the age of accountability. I think it's different for different people, but usually it's around age 12 when children start not only knowing right from wrong "eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" but also being mature and responsible enough to make their own decisions concerning these things.
(Sometimes our choices aren't as mature and responsible as they could be

But there comes another age of "letting go". Again, it's different for different people and different circumstances, but generally it's around age 21 or so.

By now, our kids are who they are. They have their own ideas about things. But they do know right from wrong, and hopefully we installed good moral (not to mention Christian) values into them.

But even if their values aren't our values, we have to let them go. They have to face the world on their own sometime. There are parents who have "kids" 30 or 40 years old still living at home (now, don't read too much into that, there are sometimes circumstances that require this to be the case) but more to the point, not only are the children still at home, the parents are still forcing their morals and values on these children. Very rarely does a persons morals or values change at this later age. (People do get saved, and Jesus changes hearts, but that's different).

My question is, if we lock these children up in our house, even after they are old enough to go out and face the world we have spent the last 21 years or so preparing them to do so. Do we really love them? Can we really make them make all the same choices we would make? Can we really make robots with no preferences of their own? It seems many of us are trying to do that to other people. (not just our kids). If e force people to be a certain way, do we really love them? Even if that way "is for their own good".

God loves us like we love our children. but he loves us enough to let us make our own choices (good or bad). He doesn't want anyone to end up in eternal damnation, but he realizes some will. (he may even know in advance who it is, but he didn't make the choice for them)

I don't like all the choices my children have made over the years, some have been pretty bad. None still live at home, and I sometimes try to "persuade" the 2 who aren't saved yet, to become saved. But in the end, I can't force them, and if I did, would I be showing them true love?

God loves and respects our choices and decisions.. even when they are bad ones.
Now that last sentence is very over-simplified. I believe he uses circumstances to try to persuade us to do the right thing (especially when it comes to salvation) but in the end, he doesn't force us.

Some would argue that the very sovereignty of God rests on the fact that he does give us free choice. He is still God no matter what choice we make.

 

[jari]

ok, as some of you may know, i started a thread entitled "Is God all knowing" the origional question was

"the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?"

i don't see the problem. why wouldnt He? He didnt make humans fall though. its more like let us fall so He can show His good will towards after that. its much more love to forgive enemies than friends.

my question has not been answered directly; or in a way that has seemed satisfactory, however i have come to believe (more in my heart) that maybe we as Christians have mis interpreted the bible or that it has been corrupted over the years.

I don't think its corrupted becaus it doesnt contradict it self but is from OT to NT consistent in it's message.

do you think (and this is just a question), that we should now seek to hear God more through the work of the Holy Spirit than through the Bible?

I think we always need holy spirit.

the Pharisees and teachers of the law seem to of got a lot of the scriptures they had studied wrong and Jesus came to re address that, does the Holy Spirit now work to re address the way we have interpreted and taught the Bible?

Bible points to God but if you miss God you are left with the scripture only. thats how they were only text but no God. - to explain them the text.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

so now i am seeking to find out what has gone wrong or if there is an answer.

I believe the problem is with mainstream Christianities interpretation.
The Jews didn't believe in hell,that's from Greek mythology.
Jesus never ever used the term "hell" because no good Jew would have taken him seriously.
What if the bible is not about what happens after you die?
What if it is for the living and not the dead.
What if the book of revelation is about the battle for your mind and heart?

Spirit without the word would make no sense and the word without the spirit makes no sense(that's why all the seeming contradictions).
We must depend on the word being interpreted through the Holy Spirit and then it all fits very well.

OK, as some of you may know, i started a thread entitled "Is God all knowing" the original question was

"the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?"

Actually you never really considered all that was posted in that thread.

I asked 3 times if someone had proof from scripture or anything that tells us we had no choice in coming to this planet.
Can we even consider the possibility?
Or does our memory tell us all we need to know?

If we are depending on memory does anyone remember this event?:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Does it even seem logical that we be punished at all for things we had no control over like original sin.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So you think God is going to punish us for something he did.
So why does this verse say we are disobedient?
Why were we ALL made to be that way?
How many will he have mercy on?

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

[B-A-C]

I believe the problem is with mainstream Christianities interpretation.
The Jews didn't believe in hell,that's from Greek mythology.
Jesus never ever used the term "hell" because no good Jew would have taken him seriously.

Jesus is speaking in the verses below.
Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Mat 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

The term "sheol" appears 65 times in the Old testament. (Gen 37:35, Gen 42:38, Gen 44:29, Gen 44:31 are the first 4 starting in Genesis.

What if the bible is not about what happens after you die?
What if it is for the living and not the dead.
What if the book of revelation is about the battle for your mind and heart?

What if it's both?

If we are depending on memory does anyone remember this event?:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

These verses use a lot of figurative language. Were we really "dead", no we spiritually dead. Are we really sitting at Christ's right hand, or are we spiritually accepted into Heaven at the time of our salvation and "in the ages to come".

Does it even seem logical that we be punished at all for things we had no control over like original sin.

Well it depends on your point of view but, I don't think we are punished for this. Who of us has never sinned?
We are punished for the sins we committed.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

ok, as some of you may know, i started a thread entitled "Is God all knowing" the origional question was

"the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?"

I have been speaking to many people about this question and wrestling with it myself. i thought it would be good to share with you where i have got to personally with it all.

my question has not been answered directly; or in a way that has seemed satisfactory, however i have come to believe (more in my heart) that maybe we as Christians have mis interpreted the bible or that it has been corrupted over the years.

i do however believe now for certain that there is one true God and that we have a need for Jesus and the Holy Spirit, this i feel is concrete.

but

do you think (and this is just a question), that we should now seek to hear God more through the work of the Holy Spirit than through the Bible?

the Pharisees and teachers of the law seem to of got a lot of the scriptures they had studied wrong and Jesus came to re address that, does the Holy Spirit now work to re address the way we have interpreted and taught the Bible?

You asked "do you think (and this is just a question), that we should now seek to hear God more through the work of the Holy Spirit than through the Bible?"
The answer is NO. The HOLY SPIRIT is given us as a teacher and counsellor (among other things) but not to replace JESUS. JESUS is the WORD.

Think about it. The WORD is JESUS. JESUS is GOD. Thus the WORD is GOD. How can you hope to understand GOD without you spend time with HIM and letting HIM teach you?
When we try to learn the WORD without HIS guidance or HIS opening it up to us....We misinterpret it.

 

[B-A-C]

I guess I've always viewed the Trinity as a hierarchy of sorts.

Here is my "top down" approach...

How do we get to God the father?

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

We can't get to God the father without Jesus.

Ok, so how do we get to Jesus?
Keep in mind Jesus isn't on the earth anymore.

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
Acts 1:11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

So, OK, Jesus isn't here and the Father isn't here, who do we have left?
Luke 11:13, John 14:26, John 15:26, Ephesians 2:18, Galatians 4:6

Yes, Jesus is the Word, but can we really understand it without the Spirit revealing it to us?

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I guess I've always viewed the Trinity as a hierarchy of sorts.

Here is my "top down" approach...

How do we get to God the father?

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

We can't get to God the father without Jesus.

Ok, so how do we get to Jesus?
Keep in mind Jesus isn't on the earth anymore.

John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
Acts 1:11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

So, OK, Jesus isn't here and the Father isn't here, who do we have left?
Luke 11:13, John 14:26, John 15:26, Ephesians 2:18, Galatians 4:6

Yes, Jesus is the Word, but can we really understand it without the Spirit revealing it to us?

Hmmm Sounds like you and I agree on the HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Jesus is speaking in the verses below.
Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Mat 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

The term "sheol" appears 65 times in the Old testament. (Gen 37:35; Gen 42:38; Gen 44:29; Gen 44:31 are the first 4 starting in Genesis.

Jesus never said Hades either he said Sheol or Gehenna.Sheol means the grave,where there is nothing,the Jews never believed in Hades or hell.
Do some research and find out the myths that were being propagated among the common people because they were mixing Judaism with parts of other gentile cultures who they were surrounded by.

If there was a Hell or Hades then it gives up it's dead:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev.20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

So to go to Hell for eternity one would have to swim from the judgement through the lake of fire to reach hell or maybe they use a catapult or something.

These verses use a lot of figurative language. Were we really "dead", no we spiritually dead. Are we really sitting at Christ's right hand, or are we spiritually accepted into Heaven at the time of our salvation and "in the ages to come".

You believe what you see, I will believe what I see.
Yes I'm there right now would you like me to say hi to someone?
Actually since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world I was there then.You are and were to whether you want to realize it or not.
Heaven is his throne and the earth is his footstool.
We ARE seated in him and our feet are on the earth to design and manufacture his footstool ,so when you die you will just lift your feet up.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

 

[jiggyfly]

You asked "do you think (and this is just a question), that we should now seek to hear God more through the work of the Holy Spirit than through the Bible?"
The answer is NO. The HOLY SPIRIT is given us as a teacher and counsellor (among other things) but not to replace JESUS. JESUS is the WORD.

Think about it. The WORD is JESUS. JESUS is GOD. Thus the WORD is GOD. How can you hope to understand GOD without you spend time with HIM and letting HIM teach you?
When we try to learn the WORD without HIS guidance or HIS opening it up to us....We misinterpret it.

So you think that the scriptures are Jesus?

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus never said Hades either he said Sheol or Gehenna.Sheol means the grave,where there is nothing,the Jews never believed in Hades or hell.
Do some research and find out the myths that were being propagated among the common people because they were mixing Judaism with parts of other gentile cultures who they were surrounded by.

If Jesus said sheol, then he said hell. This is from strongs.

she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Keep in mind it was Jesus who told the story of Lazarus and the rich man. (Luke 16)

If there was a Hell or Hades then it gives up it's dead:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev.20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

I totally agree, hell is temporary place. I have posted this several times in other threads. However it doesn't get cast into the lake of fire until after the tribulation and millennial reign and the great judgement.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Yes, on the day of judgement God will see us (Christian-believers) just as perfect as Christ in the sense that we have no sin.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

So you think that the scriptures are Jesus?

JESUS is the WORD

 

[jiggyfly]

JESUS is the WORD

OK let me rephrase my question. Do you think that Jesus is the scriptures?

 

[El Hombre viejo]

OK let me rephrase my question. Do you think that Jesus is the scriptures?

Jigger Why do I feel that this is a trick question?

Scripture= That which is written. The WORD written. JESUS is the Word. Like us HE is what HE says. The scripture therefore is JESUS since it's HIS WORDS

Ok Now spring your trap?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If Jesus said sheol, then he said hell. This is from strongs.

she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

I get Strong's 7585 as Sheol=the underworld

When the old testament was translated to Greek they did not have an equivalent word to Sheol,so the translators chose Hades.
Jesus spoke of Sheol which is the abode of the dead and he spoke of
Gehenna.

Job 7:9 "Just as a cloud dissipates and vanishes, those who go down to Sheol will not come back."
Psalms 6:4–5 "Turn, O LORD, deliver my life; save me for the sake of your steadfast love. For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?"

In death there is no remembrance,how then could they know why they are suffering?
You make God sound cruel like men are.

I totally agree, hell is temporary place. I have posted this several times in other threads. However it doesn't get cast into the lake of fire until after the tribulation and millennial reign and the great judgement.

If it is temporary then why do we tell people they will burn in hell for eternity?
According to David there is no remembrance of God in Sheol/death so wouldn't those who don't remember God now on earth be in Sheol already?
Just as those who walk in the way of love and forgiveness would be in heaven now?
Could there be a "living dead" and a "dead dead",could the abundant life offered in John 10:10 be an offer or way to a "living life"?

Could that be what Jesus meant by "let the dead bury their dead"?

 

[jiggyfly]

Jigger Why do I feel that this is a trick question?

Scripture= That which is written. The WORD written. JESUS is the Word. Like us HE is what HE says. The scripture therefore is JESUS since it's HIS WORDS

Ok Now spring your trap?

No trick question, just clarifying your way of thinking that's all.

I think you may be misunderstanding the scriptures or confusing the Word (logos) with the word (rhema) or with the scriptures (graphe).

Jesus said that the scriptures all testify of Him, do you think Jesus would testify of Himself?

 

[El Hombre viejo]

No trick question, just clarifying your way of thinking that's all.

I think you may be misunderstanding the scriptures or confusing the Word (logos) with the word (rhema) or with the scriptures (graphe).

Jesus said that the scriptures all testify of Him, do you think Jesus would testify of Himself?

Let me put it this way Jigger. I'm a wordsmith. The words I write are a relflection of whats inside of me. They come out of my very spirit, my very thoughts. They are me. What you see me write, what you read, that I've written are me. They testify of me. They bear witness of me.

In the same way, the words JESUS spoke testify of HIM. They bear witness that HE is the one HE spoke of. In the sense then that JESUS words bear that witness YES HE is testifying of HIMSELF.

The difference between my words and HIS? The words I write bring to life (for others to share) ideas that are in my spirit, while the words JESUS wrote/spoke brought to life the FACT of GOD among us

I'm not sure what sense of the word 'testify' you are looking at.