The bible

[jiggyfly]

Let me put it this way Jigger. I'm a wordsmith. The words I write are a relflection of whats inside of me. They come out of my very spirit, my very thoughts. They are me. What you see me write, what you read, that I've written are me. They testify of me. They bear witness of me.

In the same way, the words JESUS spoke testify of HIM. They bear witness that HE is the one HE spoke of. In the sense then that JESUS words bear that witness YES HE is testifying of HIMSELF.

The difference between my words and HIS? The words I write bring to life (for others to share) ideas that are in my spirit, while the words JESUS wrote/spoke brought to life the FACT of GOD among us

I'm not sure what sense of the word 'testify' you are looking at.

OK then the scriptures disagree with you.
"If I were to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be valid". John 5:31

I still think the problem is you are confusing logos with rhema and graphe.

I know it was probably an accident but I'd appreciate it if you would demonstrate some of your wordsmithing and spell my name right.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

OK then the scriptures disagree with you.
"If I were to testify on my own behalf, my testimony would not be valid". John 5:31

I still think the problem is you are confusing logos with rhema and graphe.

I know it was probably an accident but I'd appreciate it if you would demonstrate some of your wordsmithing and spell my name right.

LOL Its obvious, my friend, that you would come to that conclusion. You took only a part of what JESUS said. That means you took it out of context. Look!! HE is saying "If I alone testify in my behalf my testimony is worthless, but there is another who testifies on my behalf" )Paraphrased) Read it all.
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.




And Look!!
John 1:1-4 (King James Version)




1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Who is the WORD spoken of here?

 

[jiggyfly]

LOL Its obvious, my friend, that you would come to that conclusion. You took only a part of what JESUS said. That means you took it out of context. Look!! HE is saying "If I alone testify in my behalf my testimony is worthless, but there is another who testifies on my behalf" )Paraphrased) Read it all.
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Why do you add "alone" to the scripture? It is not there yet you add it in. I wonder should I be surprised???

And Look!!
(King James Version)




1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


Who is the WORD spoken of here?

Exactly my point, in this scripture logos is referring to Jesus the Christ and not the scriptures or written word. In the beginning were the scriptures, and the scriptures was with God and the scriptures was God???? Ya don't have to be a "wordsmith" to see it just don't make sense.

But I don't need to say anymore, enough has been said for others to discern.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Why do you add "alone" to the scripture? It is not there yet you add it in. I wonder should I be surprised???



Exactly my point, in this scripture logos is referring to Jesus the Christ and not the scriptures or written word. In the beginning were the scriptures, and the scriptures was with God and the scriptures was God???? Ya don't have to be a "wordsmith" to see it just don't make sense.

But I don't need to say anymore, enough has been said for others to discern.

I simply looked at a few different versions my friend.

Did you go to bible college Jigger?

 

[Echo3]

ok, as some of you may know, i started a thread entitled "Is God all knowing" the origional question was

"the Bible and many Christians seem to suggest that God is all knowing, if He is, then why did he create humanity knowing we would fall?"

I have been speaking to many people about this question and wrestling with it myself. i thought it would be good to share with you where i have got to personally with it all.

my question has not been answered directly; or in a way that has seemed satisfactory, however i have come to believe (more in my heart) that maybe we as Christians have mis interpreted the bible or that it has been corrupted over the years.

i do however believe now for certain that there is one true God and that we have a need for Jesus and the Holy Spirit, this i feel is concrete.

but

do you think (and this is just a question), that we should now seek to hear God more through the work of the Holy Spirit than through the Bible?

the Pharisees and teachers of the law seem to of got a lot of the scriptures they had studied wrong and Jesus came to re address that, does the Holy Spirit now work to re address the way we have interpreted and taught the Bible?

if i may be so bold,
let me assure you of one thing,
it matters not if you read the whole Bible,
all one needs is the life of Christ,
which is in the first few chapters
of the new testament.
if in one's heart, one sympathizes
with the life of Christ
one has won a great victory.
follow that life,
and everything else will fall into place.

 

[B-A-C]

If it is temporary then why do we tell people they will burn in hell for eternity?
According to David there is no remembrance of God in Sheol/death so wouldn't those who don't remember God now on earth be in Sheol already?

I don't tell anyone that, but I understand why people do.
I view paradise/Abraham's bosom as a temporary place that doesn't even exist anymore. When (Christian/believers) die, they go to Heaven. We can debate whether it's immediate or they lie in the ground, or it's after their judged or all that another time. For this discussion it doesn't matter that much. I think the thief on the cross was the last person to go to paradise.
Sheol/Hades/Hell is another temporary place, but it still exists. This is where non-Christian/un-believers) go.

(some people say this is where the good people go, that's where the bad people go, LOL) I think we both know there are no people "good enough" to make it on their own.

So, if hell is a temporary place why do we tell people they will burn for eternity? Because there is no one in hell that won't eventually be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So, if hell is a temporary place why do we tell people they will burn for eternity? Because there is no one in hell that won't eventually be thrown into the lake of fire.

Not if hell is actually Sheol or the grave,pit or death.
Hell and Hades is from Greek mythology and Sheol is just the dirt where there is no memory of anything.

Eccl. 9:5 the dead know not anything
http://ebible.com/query?utf=8✓&query=Ecclesiastes 12:7&translation=ESV Job:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14: 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
:Job 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Sheol is not for the wicked only,Job knew that he would be there one day.
His hope was that God would remember him and raise him up into a body.
The wicked would simply never be raised as far as Job knew.

 

[David777]

Hello folks.

The "worms" are mentioned in connection with the dead bodies, because they hasten the decomposition and represent the ignominy of corpses deprived of burial (Jeremiah 25:33; Is 14:11; Job 7:5; 17:14; Acts 12:23). The figure of the fire that is not quenched is used frequently in Scripture to signify a fire that consumes (Ezekial 20:47-48) and reduces to nothing (Am 5:5-6; Matt 3:12). Edward Fudge rightly explains that "both worms and fire speak of a total and final destruction. Both terms also make this a ‘loathsome’ scene."12 To understand the meaning of the phrase "the fire shall not be quenched," it is important to remember that keeping a fire live, to burn corpses required considerable effort in Palestine. Corpses do not readily burn and the firewood needed to consume them was scarce.

The image of an unquenchable fire is simply designed to convey the thought of being completely burned up or consumed. It has nothing to do with the everlasting punishment of immortal souls. The passage speaks clearly of "dead bodies" which are consumed and not of immortal souls which are tormented eternally. It is unfortunate that traditionalists interpret this passage, and similar statements of Jesus in the light of their conception of the final punishment rather than on the basis of what the figure of speech really means.

 

[jiggyfly]

I simply looked at a few different versions my friend.

Did you go to bible college Jigger?

I have asked you to spell my name right, yet you continue, are you trying to insult me?

 

[B-A-C]

Not if hell is actually Sheol or the grave,pit or death.
Hell and Hades is from Greek mythology and Sheol is just the dirt where there is no memory of anything.

Eccl. 9:5 the dead know not anything
Job:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14: 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
:Job 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Sheol is not for the wicked only,Job knew that he would be there one day.
His hope was that God would remember him and raise him up into a body.
The wicked would simply never be raised as far as Job knew.

Sometimes the word sheol, really is the grave, and only the grave.
But sometimes it is Hades/Hell, I stick by point that anyone going to hell will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The is the strongs translation of the word in Job 12 you quoted.

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Whoever told you that Hell and Hades only exists in Greek mythology is incorrect, the orthodox Jews of today certainly believes in Hell and Hades. If you believe the Bible and that Genesis 4 (the first times sheol/hades is mentioned) was a known place before the flood (Genesis 6:17) and Greece didn't even exist until after the flood. If you don't believe that Judaism existed long before Greek mythology, then that should likely be another discussion at some point.

I believe you are correct in Job's case, he didn't want to go to Hades, he just wanted to "lie down and die" until God's plan of salvation came to pass. In this instance, it was simply "the grave".

Now this leads to whole another topic of hell. Which is possibly too much of a tangent for this particular thread.
The Lazarus was in "Abraham's bosom", he could see the rich man in torment across the chasm. Some believe sheol to be the same place, just separated by a chasm. Now when Jesus died (he didn't stay dead) he went to sheol (not the hades side) and gathered the people there and took them to heaven.

Luke 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

(Also see Psa 68:18)

So what did Jesus do when he "descended into the lower parts" of the earth? (the non-hades part of sheol)
He got the people there (The thief on the cross who went to paradise, Lazarus himself, Abraham, and all the other (likely millions of) people that were "captive" there. He took the "captives" with him to Heaven. (again, I say not those in Hades) and now when a believer dies, they don't go to Abraham's bosom/paradise. They simply go to Heaven (whether this happens immediately, or you lie in the ground for a while first is a debate for another time).

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I have asked you to spell my name right, yet you continue, are you trying to insult me?

I've always called you Jigger as a "friend" name. If it offends you I'll stop. People call me Santa. Maybe because I have a belly and a white beard? But they call me that against my will but always in fun and camaraderie. I accept that.

Sorry I offended you Jiggfly

 

[jari]

The Lazarus was in "Abraham's bosom", he could see the rich man in torment across the chasm. Some believe sheol to be the same place, just separated by a chasm. Now when Jesus died (he didn't stay dead) he went to sheol (not the hades side) and gathered the people there and took them to heaven.

the story of rich man and lazarus is a parable. It seems Jesus told it from Jews point of view. The jews all considered them to be children of Abrahamn. We know only those of faith are. Secondly they understood the term abrahamns bosom. We understand term heaven better to be place with God.

just something to keep in mind.......

probably also this great chasm is part of the parable and there isn't places where you can really see to another place. but the great chasm is just part of the parable only. like many other things in the parable are not likely not real but part of the teaching only.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Whoever told you that Hell and Hades only exists in Greek mythology is incorrect, the orthodox Jews of today certainly believes in Hell and Hades. If you believe the Bible and that Genesis 4 (the first times sheol/hades is mentioned) was a known place before the flood (Genesis 6:17) and Greece didn't even exist until after the flood. If you don't believe that Judaism existed long before Greek mythology, then that should likely be another discussion at some point.

I agree that this should be a discussion because I am trying to understand scripture without concepts that make other scripture lose meaning or appear to conflict.The Jews themselves were warned about their own mythology that had been developing since the Babylonian captivity.

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

On top of the Babylonian influence,Hellenism mixed Judaism with Philosophy and Greek Mythology and by Jesus's time had woven it's way into the minds of the common people.
There were no descriptions of the underworld until the time of the Babylonian captivity and the Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel describe underworld scenes that are strikingly similar to the beliefs of the religions of the men whom they were addressing.
They were taunts that mockingly made fun of the plans of man and the kings of the earth.
In today's context I would say they were trash talking the 1%.

 

[philosopher]

I've shifted so often now on my thoughts of Hell, either being a place of torment, or annihilation, that I think I'll just remain neutral from here on out. Both sides have put forth convincing arguments, but I still have an unsettled feeling on the matter.

 

[David777]

Hello Philosopher.

You stated,

I've shifted so often now on my thoughts of Hell, either being a place of torment,
or annihilation, that I think I'll just remain neutral from here on out. Both sides have
put forth convincing arguments, but I still have an unsettled feeling on the matter.

Totally agree with your reluctance to commit philosopher, not an easy doctrine to unravel.

I have never been willing to commit to one of the possible multiple
interpretations of the result of judgement. Whether it be annihilation (destroyed),
eternal torment, conditionalism, or even universalism.

Lately, I have been checking the scripture regarding these options.

In a vague hope of understanding exactly what the scriptures are
stating regarding judgement of the wicked.

In light of death being the outcome of sin and immortality being
a gift for those who believe in Jesus. I shy away from the concept
that the human soul is immortal in itself. Hence, non existence is the
most likely outcome of failure to believe in the Christ. Mortal life is a gift,
more so is immortal life. Death is and must be the only outcome for the
wicked.

Then again philosopher I cannot reject the possibility of reconciliation for all
mankind. Not wanting to in anyway reduce the power of the atonement. What
Jesus performed in His death should never be under estimated, it was powerful way
beyond the ability of man to comprehend.

God can perform immeasurably more than we may even ask or imagine.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I've shifted so often now on my thoughts of Hell, either being a place of torment, or annihilation, that I think I'll just remain neutral from here on out. Both sides have put forth convincing arguments, but I still have an unsettled feeling on the matter.

David777's post pretty much sums up what my research has brought me to.All known doctrines have unsolvable.. umm...mysteries at the very least.Before the internet I never would have had a chance to do enough research to follow each point the a particular doctrine touches on so in the last 12 years I have had to drop many assumptions and teachings from men who did not have the benefit of the internet.

If your not shifting your not paying attention.
It's way easier to disprove a doctrine than to form one that meets all scripture.

That said I believe the answer is "something we have not yet considered".

How do we know we did not have a choice to come here?

Job generates some fairly interesting options to consider.

I always felt this was God being sarcastic but I'm not so sure anymore:
Job 38:19 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?
Job 38:20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
Job 38:21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!

Do we know but just forget?
It would explain a lot but of course it also generates more questions.
I see the possibility through scripture that our(What we have been taught) entire concept of life and death and time may be skewed.

 

[jiggyfly]

Just a friendly reminder, the topic is the bible.