The Diety of Jesus

[Rxlx]

Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus:

John 8:48
48;Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49; Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

 

[KingJ]

Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus:

John 8:48
48;Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

49; Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. Three different Beings, yet one Deity.

Instead of this painful back and forth circular argument and cherry picking of scriptures, please could you take a stab at these questions @Rxlx @Rhema @Butch5 :

1. Is worshipping and praying to Jesus fine for you?

If, Yes, please explain as scripture is crystal clear that there is one God and He is very jealous Exo 34:14. We must have no God's before Him Exo 20:3.

2. Is God just in that He ordained Jesus suffer a cruel and torturous death for sins He did not commit?

If, Yes, please explain. If you state that Jesus was a ransom as some do, please note that that does not answer the question, it is simply moving the goal posts.

3. Do you believe God cannot manifest Himself as three different beings?

If, yes, please explain to me how God came into existence.

4. Was Jesus dumb and lying when He angered the Pharisees all the more by making Himself equal with God? John 5:18

If, No, please explain why.

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You and other non-trinitarians NEED to understand what your belief insinuates. IE You need to 'deal' with the questions above in a way that does not incriminate God. As God is good Psalm 136:1, just Job 34:12 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and Jesus did anger the Pharisees all the more when He made Himself equal with God.

------------------------

If you do reply, please do so in a logical, easy to read point form. Try avoid coming across as someone who wants to evade and troll. This is a very important topic. Please understand that I am accusing you and other non-trinitarians of heavily incriminating God, mocking Jesus and Christianity.

 

[Rxlx]

Instead of this stupid back and forth why don't you stop calling Jesus a liar!

Can you not read?

'for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.'

Jesus is not GOD and GOD is not Jesus.

 

[Rhema]

Step by step...where in what you quoted from Brother BAC to me, was Trinity even mentioned?

So you think I misunderstood @B-A-C ?? Then why not just say that. We can ask him.

@B-A-C, if you could be so inclined to clarify, when you concluded that -

This is something you absolutely must believe in order to be saved.

Were you referring to the Trinity or not?

These were the verses immediately before your conclusion.

John 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:34 "But the witness which I receive is not from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.

But was it not your intent that "these things" being said were to establish Jesus as part of the Trinity?

My apologies if you somehow hold to the Deity of Jesus (as I do) without adhering to the doctrine of the Trinity.

I see now that you hadn't quoted the typical verse of John 8:24:

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.​

- John 8:24 KJV

But your previous conclusions had been:

God created everything. Jesus created everything. Jesus is God.

Not like God, not half God... God with us.

Before stating that:

his is something you absolutely must believe in order to be saved.

I am forced now to pause any continued conversation with @Christ4Ever until this be clarified. I read that you believe all must believe Jesus is God in order to be saved. Nick seems to think I misunderstood your post.

If you could be so kind,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

What interests me is the A-Z belief of one who does not believe in the trinity.

i don't believe that really interests you at all. Why? Because you've already arrived at a conclusion.

Christianity only works if the trinity is real.

But maybe that's only your form of Christianity. One with whom others disagree.

Surely they believe God is twisted, evil and unjust .....and are ok with that.

No. We do not. But you are not inclined to take the time to listen and understand why. You keep making these false conclusions, as if you understand it all, which is, again, why I don't believe that you have any interest in the A-Z belief of one who does not believe in the Trinity.

I would love to hear a non-trinitarian post a rational and logical argument for God being just and good when He chose to send an unlucky Being who clearly must have drawn the shortest straw to die a cruel and torturous death for sins He did not commit.

Didn't Jesus directly state:

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.​

- Luke 22:42 KJV

Maybe your "unlucky being" actually volunteered, just like your hypothetical mother, who for the sake of giving birth, volunteered to suffer the associated pain.

But of course an obvious problem here is that if Jesus is God and the Father is God, how could they have separate wills that conflict? This is God in conflict with Himself. (And then agreeing with Himself to kill Himself.)

Throughout all history, millions of people have suffered cruel and torturous deaths for sins they did not commit (nor did they volunteer to suffer).

Respectfully,
Rhema

please could you take a stab at these questions @Rxlx @Rhema @Butch5 :

My concern is that you want easy answers in five words or less. But that's not possible. Maybe if I have the time. But would you pay attention?

And if I did post well reasoned answers, accompanied with supporting scripture, whose to say that Nick just won't DELETE them, like he has done so readily in the past, thereby wasting all of my time?

 

[Rhema]

Please understand that I am accusing you ...

So what?

 

[B-A-C]

Were you referring to the Trinity or not?

I am a trinitarian, but I was specifically addressing the diety of Jesus in that section.

I can't remember if you were a modalist or not.
Question: If you only believe in the diety of Jesus, then does that mean you don't believe in the diety of the Father.

 

[Rxlx]

I am a trinitarian, but I was specifically addressing the diety of Jesus in that section.

I can't remember if you were a modalist or not.
Question: If you only believe in the diety of Jesus, then does that mean you don't believe in the diety of the Father.

Lunacy.

 

[B-A-C]

Lunacy.

1Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

 

[Rxlx]

1Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

and you prech a foolish message of Babylonian trinitarianism.

 

[Rhema]

I am a trinitarian, but I was specifically addressing the diety of Jesus in that section.

But does that difference make any difference? (I hadn't thought it would.)

Yet I do appreciate the partial clarification (thank you), but could you be so kind as to confirm your belief that those who do not believe in the Trinity cannot be saved?

I can't remember if you were a modalist or not.

I am not.
I am neither Arian, Trinitarian, nor Sabellian.
I'm somethin' else.

Question: If you only believe in the diety of Jesus, then does that mean you don't believe in the diety of the Father.

Odd question, but I wouldn't think so. I've always believed in the deity of the Father. If one's Father in Heaven is not God, then we've really run the dictionary through the shreader.

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,​

(Galatians 1:3 KJV)

But why didn't Paul settle things by writing, "and from our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son.?"

But I do hold to certain elements of Exaltation Christology.

Exaltation Christology in an Early Creed | The Bart Ehrman Blog

So far in this series of posts dealing with How Jesus Became God, I have maintained that in the very early years of Christianity, soon after the disciples came to believe in the resurrection, there were two forms of Christology that emerged. And I have discussed only one of these…

ehrmanblog.org

(My apologies that it turns into a commercial.)

Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

Step by step...where in what you quoted from Brother BAC to me, was Trinity even mentioned?

So you think I misunderstood @B-A-C ?? Then why not just say that. We can ask him.

@B-A-C, if you could be so inclined to clarify, when you concluded that -

You presented something that was not in evidence. If you had wanted it to be about the Trinity, then you should have included as part of that quote what he had referenced that included the Trinity. I took the quote for what it was, and did not extrapolate it as you did in your reply to me to include something that was not evident in the words used by Brother BAC that you quoted.

This is something you absolutely must believe in order to be saved.

Were you referring to the Trinity or not?

These were the verses immediately before your conclusion.

I don't care what he answers to this. You were erroneous in your reply back to me, and now only seek to obfuscate your mistake with including evidence you did not include initially. Stop it.

John 5:18 For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:34 "But the witness which I receive is not from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.

But was it not your intent that "these things" being said were to establish Jesus as part of the Trinity?

My apologies if you somehow hold to the Deity of Jesus (as I do) without adhering to the doctrine of the Trinity.

I see now that you hadn't quoted the typical verse of John 8:24:
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.- John 8:24 KJV

But your previous conclusions had been:

God created everything. Jesus created everything. Jesus is God.

Not like God, not half God... God with us.

Before stating that:

his is something you absolutely must believe in order to be saved.

I am forced now to pause any continued conversation with @Christ4Ever until this be clarified. I read that you believe all must believe Jesus is God in order to be saved. Nick seems to think I misunderstood your post.

Regardless of Brother BAC's response to the questions you posed to him, it is irrelevant to your reply to me based on what you quoted. You were mistaken and are now asking these questions of Brother BAC to absolve yourself for not providing a more comprehensive quote initially. Had you done so, I probably would have altered my response to you, if I addressed it at all.

The devil is a deceiver, brother. Do not let your pride prevent you from recognizing and acknowledging your mistakes as any Godly man would do.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
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