I think we must agree to disagree on that deeds influence more than words. It must be words BACKED by deeds which God does through people that will penetrate dead and sleeping men and women's hearts with the gospel.
Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I DO believe words should be backed by deeds. And what better, more powerful and truthful words than God's???...none! :thumbs_up
My earlier statement may have been a bit shortsighted or lacking, to say the least. My aim, was to touch on the issue of how people in modern societies don't seem to be as
willing to "hear" as clearly as others have in the past. It's easier today for them to distrust and disbelieve. I think the phrase "hardening of hearts" applies more so than ever. Please don't mistake the views I've expressed as a lack of faith in the power of His Word. It's the receivers who are unreliable, IMO. Am I making sense?
Seeing a movie, going to a camp, doing an activity...nothing wrong with these things. But they do not save. Only Jesus does.
Absolutely, unequivocally, Amen, Brother!!
Eph. 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except though Me."
Also I think it's wrong to lump all others who have died painfully as though they moaned and groaned and didn't bear it willingly. This simply isn't so.
Stephen when he was stoned for preaching Christ said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" (just as Jesus did).
Peter was crucified, history tells us, upside down because he wasn't worthy to die the same death as his Lord. This is whimpering and not bearing it knowingly?
So many martyrs through the ages were burned at the stake, hung on crosses, fed to lions, burned in ovens, put under cruel torture (Paul wasn't whimpering when he endured 40 lashes less 1....the limit of what could nearly kill a man 3 times! He knew what he was enduring).
The difference is NOT in willful endurance. It is that JESUS BORE OUR SINS. Peter, Paul, Stephen and all the rest of the martyrs were prepared by Jesus telling them they would suffer and die for His sake and endured just as He was prepared to suffer and die by the Father. But they didn't die a sacrificial death for our sins. Only Jesus did that.
mg: I have to admit, I'm a bit frustrated. Not at all with you or your view. I appreciate
immensely your effort and attentive devotion to the Lord and your willingness to fellowship compassionately with me. My frustration is with the difficulty in conveying our views to each other clearly on these forums rather than in person. Please bear with me as I try to pinpoint your meaning and make my own as clear as possible.
First and foremost, I am JOYFULLY, THANKFULLY, and TOTALLY aware that the difference between Jesus and those martyrs was and is that He bore our sins. Praise and Glory be to God!! WHAT He did VERY MUCH outweighs, a million times over, the manner in which He did it. That fact alone is what makes His sacrifice an act of immeasurable love and mercy. We are definitely in agreement on that issue.
You didn’t mention Stephen, Peter or Paul in your original post, though. You cited “...many crucified during the Roman occupation. During Hitler, unspeakable things were done to Jews, minorities and those that hid/supported them." My prior distinction was based on these people. I'm sorry, but I don’t view the Halocaust victims, minorities and others cited in your original post as Christian martyrs, but as victims of evil, horrific beliefs and aspirations. They DID struggle against the gas chambers and lynch mob ropes and crucifixions and witchhunts in the name of survival rather than in the name of Jesus. Are you suggesting otherwise?
I do not attempt to bring shame on the millions who’ve died at the hands of madmen, religious zealots and social immoralists, but they ARE distinct from true Christian martyrs and it is wrong to assign Christian martyrdom to all of them. It belittles the meaning of the term.
I feel comfortable, as well, in making a distinction between Jesus and true Christian martyrs. Again, I don’t attempt to undermine what these saints willfully endured, but they
followed Jesus and His precious example. They wouldn’t have endured that sort of persecution prior to Jesus’ earthly presence, death and resurrection. To my knowledge, none died in the name of Jesus prior to His example and few have since; even fewer have through the ages.
To get back on track to the original topic, the
manner in which Jesus expressed His love for each of us in His Crucifixion; the
manner in which He made possible our Salvation IS
secondary to the act itself, but you have to admit, the
manner of the act sends a powerful message. Pardon my shameful omission of the primary message in my original ranting, but I was focused, perhaps erroneously, on the possible goals of Mel Gibson's movie as being an effort to convey, in terms more easily understood by MODERN societies, a visualization of Jesus' powerful love. Perhaps in your view, and admittedly mine now that I consider it more carefully, it is more important that Mr. Gibson make a movie that emphasizes the purpose of Jesus' willing sacrifice and the significance of His Resurrection over the
manner in which He gave us the precious gift of Salvation.
Perhaps Mel Gibson, like me, isn't perfect and is fallible in his decisions on how to spend millions to overcome alleged "Hollywood biases" in his industry concerning Christianity. I don't know. I suspect that under the circumstances, Mr. Melbourne Gibson went against the grain and made an honest attempt without, to my knowledge, inserting lies or fabricating beyond truth for the sake of "the mighty dollar" thus deceiving his audience, his brethren and/or potential future brethren. He achieved something amazing and likely pleasing to God. I can’t say for sure. I only know I was pleased and he earned some respect from me. I can assure you, though, I do not look on Mr. Gibson as some type of "Hollywood martyr", if you get my meaning. I simply believe the man deserves some degree of commendation and doesn't deserve anyone's condemnation. Maybe I'm just being naive.
Have I come full circle, Labrador? Have I reached an understanding of your point? If not, please continue. Above all, please don't allow my propensity to miss the point to frustrate your efforts, Brother. I am very interested and even more so, appreciative of our fellowship.
By the way, this is not directed at a person or an attack on Amen, who I appreciate and thanks again for taking the time to respond! It's not an attack on others who have posted or began this thread. It's simply a reminder of purpose, why we are here on earth.
You'll have to try harder than that to get my goat, Lab. No worries. I never once felt attacked and I hope you don't either when reading my responses. I am able to discern your genuine desire to ultimately fellowship with us once we reach that glorious home in the clouds that He has awaiting us. See you there, Brother. :thumbs_up I can't wait.
GBU, Brother Lab (hope you don't mind my taking liberties with your name)
Amen!
