Fellowservant
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Chad said:
Amen brother Chad...that is a great verse of scripture. I wish all men would come to a better understanding of this.
God bless all
The Second Commandment
- Thread starter christserf
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Amen brother Chad...that is a great verse of scripture. I wish all men would come to a better understanding of this.
God bless all
Theres no better way to correct each other than scripture.
Its just perfection
Edit= The christmas tree is put up in my house, against my will but I dont let it bother me. I do feel Christ would be against it though, along with the other celebrations my family have during the christmas period. Its very material based here. Almost focused on greed more than love. I do see little point in the tree, and I see it as a distraction from Christ.
Its just perfection
Edit= The christmas tree is put up in my house, against my will but I dont let it bother me. I do feel Christ would be against it though, along with the other celebrations my family have during the christmas period. Its very material based here. Almost focused on greed more than love. I do see little point in the tree, and I see it as a distraction from Christ.
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Snowrose
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Hello my dear friends.
Fellowservant, I just wanted to say that I appreciated your answer. It was well-expressed and I thank you. My answer concerning the computer being an idol was not my real intent. I do apologize. Jiggyfly said it more eloquently than I - “that if anything requires the majority of our attention, affection, and or time it infringes on our relationship with Jesus and that means that He is not our Lord”.
I recall when I was younger I tended to watch a lot of television not because I was interested in watching a particular show but to fill-in the emptiness or it allowed me not to face reality. I thank my Lord that He saved me and fill my heart with His love. I may be wrong but today with computers along with the internet - there is a different danger with all sorts of information that is available that can be a negative influence.
We need Jesus now more than ever. I say this more for the younger people for they are faced with more mindsets than we have ever had when I was growing up. Kids are being bombarded by information from all walks of life that is found in our education, television, and internet. It just blows my mind away what kids face nowadays. But that is another topic.
Amen Cognitive to your reply that “There’s no better way to correct each other than scripture.”
“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” - Hebrews 4: 12-13
Well thank you my dear friends for listening to me once again – God bless you all.
Love,
Snowrose
Fellowservant, I just wanted to say that I appreciated your answer. It was well-expressed and I thank you. My answer concerning the computer being an idol was not my real intent. I do apologize. Jiggyfly said it more eloquently than I - “that if anything requires the majority of our attention, affection, and or time it infringes on our relationship with Jesus and that means that He is not our Lord”.
I recall when I was younger I tended to watch a lot of television not because I was interested in watching a particular show but to fill-in the emptiness or it allowed me not to face reality. I thank my Lord that He saved me and fill my heart with His love. I may be wrong but today with computers along with the internet - there is a different danger with all sorts of information that is available that can be a negative influence.
We need Jesus now more than ever. I say this more for the younger people for they are faced with more mindsets than we have ever had when I was growing up. Kids are being bombarded by information from all walks of life that is found in our education, television, and internet. It just blows my mind away what kids face nowadays. But that is another topic.
Amen Cognitive to your reply that “There’s no better way to correct each other than scripture.”
“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” - Hebrews 4: 12-13
Well thank you my dear friends for listening to me once again – God bless you all.
Love,
Snowrose
Christserf,
I hate to point out the obvious but didn't God make us in his image?
As far as I am aware the bible doesn't put potters in a bad light!
The ancient Hebrew and Aramaic texts were developed from the ancient cuneiform alphabet's inscribed images.
God Bless
Eve
I hate to point out the obvious but didn't God make us in his image?
As far as I am aware the bible doesn't put potters in a bad light!
The ancient Hebrew and Aramaic texts were developed from the ancient cuneiform alphabet's inscribed images.
God Bless
Eve
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christserf
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4Jesus:
Chad:
Fellowservant:
cognitive:
1) In marriage. 1 Cor. 7:27-28 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
2) In scope of ministry. Mat 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mark 16:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Snowrose:
Eve:
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
"...any graven image, or any likeness..." Strong's #8544, very broad.
Chad:
In this, you are saying that Exodus 20:4 is not literal. I can accept this if you prove that it is figurative. If you refuse to do so then you are asking me to accept that a passage is figurative without any proof. What will this method of interpretation do to other doctrines in the Bible? Should we be asked to prove that "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Mt. 22:39) is meant to be literal and not figurative? Are you suggesting that we should take Scripture figuratively until it's proven to be literal?
This falls in line with the keeping of all the other commandments. We are saved by grace, not works. (Eph. 2:8) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. (Gal. 2:17) We know that sin is transgression of the law. (1 John 3:4) Therefore, we should not transgress the law, but Jesus can save us even if we do.
This presumes that it's okay to make the statues. If it is a sin to make even decorative statues then doing so, if you know that it is a sin, is direct rebellion against Yahweh.
I do think that idolatry is the main problem, but that, in and of itself, does not figuratize the first half of the commandment. If the main reason for the command against adultery was to keep from getting STD's, an ability to cure STD's would not negate the command. Even so, if the main reason for the command against making images was to keep us from worshipping them, an ability to keep yourself from worshipping them does not negate the command.
Fellowservant:
I agree with this statement. I am not making up anything, I am simply following what the Second Commandment literally says. If you can give me reasons why I should take the 2nd Commandment figuratively, I will hear them.
cognitive:
I am glad that you do this, however I do feel that I should point out that there are a couple of instances where we are not required to follow the example of Christ.
1) In marriage. 1 Cor. 7:27-28 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
2) In scope of ministry. Mat 15:24 But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mark 16:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Snowrose:
Amen.
Eve:
Yes, but that is irrelevant. Yahweh also accepts worship from men, but we're not supposed to do that.
I'll agree that it doesn't put them in a bad light when they're making pots.
Nevertheless the Hebrew and Aramaic alphabets do not consist of images of people, animals, etc. The Aleph doesn't look like any person, animal, or celestial body that I have ever seen.
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
Galatians 5:1-4
1*So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2*Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3*I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4*For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
Colossians 2:6-23
*And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to live in obedience to him. 7*Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all he has done.
8*Don’t let anyone lead you astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world,* and not from Christ. 9*For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,* 10*and you are complete through your union with Christ. He is the Lord over every ruler and authority in the universe.
11*When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. It was a spiritual procedure—the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12*For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
13*You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ. He forgave all our sins. 14*He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ’s cross. 15*In this way, God disarmed the evil rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross of Christ.
16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself. 18*Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on self-denial. And don’t let anyone say you must worship angels, even though they say they have had visions about this. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud. 19*But they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For we are joined together in his body by his strong sinews, and we grow only as we get our nourishment and strength from God.
20*You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as, 21*“Don’t handle, don’t eat, don’t touch.” 22*Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them. 23*These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person’s evil thoughts and desires.
Romans 7:1-6
1*Now, dear brothers and sisters*—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only to a person who is still living? 2*Let me illustrate. When a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3*So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4*So this is the point: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 5*When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit.
1*So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2*Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3*I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4*For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
Colossians 2:6-23
*And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to live in obedience to him. 7*Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all he has done.
8*Don’t let anyone lead you astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world,* and not from Christ. 9*For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,* 10*and you are complete through your union with Christ. He is the Lord over every ruler and authority in the universe.
11*When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. It was a spiritual procedure—the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12*For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
13*You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ. He forgave all our sins. 14*He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ’s cross. 15*In this way, God disarmed the evil rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross of Christ.
16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself. 18*Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on self-denial. And don’t let anyone say you must worship angels, even though they say they have had visions about this. These people claim to be so humble, but their sinful minds have made them proud. 19*But they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For we are joined together in his body by his strong sinews, and we grow only as we get our nourishment and strength from God.
20*You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world. So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as, 21*“Don’t handle, don’t eat, don’t touch.” 22*Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them. 23*These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person’s evil thoughts and desires.
Romans 7:1-6
1*Now, dear brothers and sisters*—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only to a person who is still living? 2*Let me illustrate. When a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3*So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4*So this is the point: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God. 5*When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit.
Fellowservant
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There are ten commandments, so how are we to read scripture? we are to read it in its context always, except some prophecy or the way some prophecy is to be interpreted. Now the second commandment needs to be read in its context, or we end up with two in one, ill show you something.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Above we see one commandment of the ten... Exo 20:4-5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them... them who or what? the first sentence tells you what... Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
So if we read this in its context, we see that God said this implying not to make graven images, or any likeness of any thing for the soul basis of bowing down to them... or serving them, after you make them. If you don't read this in its context you get... Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thus giving you two commandments in one, so this is incorrect. Read it in its context so you won't mess up its meaning
One more example of scripture in its context is the tenth commandment.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.
If we say Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, out of context we have one command here... the next one would be thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, and so on. So this must be read in its context, or we end up with more than ten commands. So the second commandment must also be read in its context, or its Houston we have a problem.
When it says Thou shalt not it doesn't mean that this is a different command. The tenth commandment proves that.
The soul purpose of the tenth commandment is coveteousness or not to covet, the soul purpose of the second commandment is idolatry or not to worship Idols, simple...
God bless
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Above we see one commandment of the ten... Exo 20:4-5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them... them who or what? the first sentence tells you what... Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
So if we read this in its context, we see that God said this implying not to make graven images, or any likeness of any thing for the soul basis of bowing down to them... or serving them, after you make them. If you don't read this in its context you get... Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thus giving you two commandments in one, so this is incorrect. Read it in its context so you won't mess up its meaning
One more example of scripture in its context is the tenth commandment.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.
If we say Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, out of context we have one command here... the next one would be thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, and so on. So this must be read in its context, or we end up with more than ten commands. So the second commandment must also be read in its context, or its Houston we have a problem.
When it says Thou shalt not it doesn't mean that this is a different command. The tenth commandment proves that.
The soul purpose of the tenth commandment is coveteousness or not to covet, the soul purpose of the second commandment is idolatry or not to worship Idols, simple...
God bless
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SpiritLedEd
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From the beginning of creation, man has been aware that there is a power much greater than himself at work in the universe.The idols and craven images mentioned in Exodus 20 were man's attempt to capture a vision of that power, something to latch onto that would meet their needs and give their lives meaning. But they wanted it based on human understanding (which is flawed, to put it mildly). In their search for God, they stopped way short of the Really Real (one of Brennan Manning's names for God).
I have neighbors whose god is an old ChevyII that they display in car shows.There was a time in my life when alcohol was my god. It was more important, even, than my job, except for the fact that I needed the job to pay for the alcohol.
Now I try to live by a simple rule-of-thumb: Be it human or non-human, if it's more important than God in my life, it's an idol and it has to get off the throne.
SLE
I have neighbors whose god is an old ChevyII that they display in car shows.There was a time in my life when alcohol was my god. It was more important, even, than my job, except for the fact that I needed the job to pay for the alcohol.
Now I try to live by a simple rule-of-thumb: Be it human or non-human, if it's more important than God in my life, it's an idol and it has to get off the throne.
SLE
christserf
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jiggyfly:
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Fellowservant:
SLE:
Amen!
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Fellowservant:
There are three times that the phrase "ten commandments" is used in the Bible: Ex. 34:28, Deu. 4:13, and Deu. 10:4. In each case, the Hebrew word translated "commandments" (dabar) is not the word for "commandments". "Dabar" means "speech, word, speaking, saying, utterance," etc. Hence, you can't make the case that each of the ten is only making one specific command (at least not by a word study of "command").
SLE:
Amen!
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
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christserf you are continually talking about following the law of the OT rather than following Christ. Does the below make any sense to you whatsoever?
Galatians 5:1-4
1*So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2*Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3*I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4*For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
Verse 4 says enough for me, does it for you? Why are you so uptight and concerned about this 2nd commandment that your going in circles disregarding what Jesus Christ has already fulfilled?
This shows that your not even 100% sure of this commandment's point. I'm shocked that you cannot see that GOD is clearly talking about graven images as idolatory not decorative. I'm not sure what Bible your reading brother but I don't recall GOD saying anything about making statues for decorative purposes. Idolatory is all over the bible and GOD hates idolatory. Simple, yet you make it seem so difficult.
Galatians 5:1-4
1*So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2*Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3*I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4*For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
Verse 4 says enough for me, does it for you? Why are you so uptight and concerned about this 2nd commandment that your going in circles disregarding what Jesus Christ has already fulfilled?
Do you see what you said? "If it is a sin to make even decorative....."christserf said:
This shows that your not even 100% sure of this commandment's point. I'm shocked that you cannot see that GOD is clearly talking about graven images as idolatory not decorative. I'm not sure what Bible your reading brother but I don't recall GOD saying anything about making statues for decorative purposes. Idolatory is all over the bible and GOD hates idolatory. Simple, yet you make it seem so difficult.
I cannot see any point in making a decorative statue.
I always see my youngest children being closer to GOD, as they have yet to be poisined by the world around them.
I thought about this thread as I watched my child play in the garden. My elder children had bought birds made of plastic which are nailed to the play house. So in a way these could be classed as decorative statues.
One had fallen on the ground, she picked it up, looked at it for a second, dropped it on the floor and carried on with her day. She saw no point in a plastic bird.
Our neighbour has a bird table and puts out food daily, my daughter ( Brodie 2 years old this August) will look with wonder at these birds no matter how long they flutter around the table. Smiling and pointing with love in her eyes.
GOD made those birds for our enjoyment, the squirrels, flowers, ladybirds etc. They are there to decorate our gardens, we all love them. They are alive.
MAN made the plastic birds, artificial flowers, stone gnomes etc. MAN made them not for our enjoyment, but for money. For the world. These are possesions.
We are to be lovers of GOD and his creation.
Why waste our time with the lifeless creation of men? For these are from the world and not from GOD.
EDIT= After reading the post back to myself I thought that GOD and his creation is perfect, with the flowers, birds etc. If we fill our gardens with these statues etc. Are we not saying that GOD missed out a few things when he created our wildlife?
I notice a garden near me which is totally concrete and full of stone statues, a little extreme but I notice now that it contains little if none of what GOD had created. Maybe christerf has a point?
I always see my youngest children being closer to GOD, as they have yet to be poisined by the world around them.
I thought about this thread as I watched my child play in the garden. My elder children had bought birds made of plastic which are nailed to the play house. So in a way these could be classed as decorative statues.
One had fallen on the ground, she picked it up, looked at it for a second, dropped it on the floor and carried on with her day. She saw no point in a plastic bird.
Our neighbour has a bird table and puts out food daily, my daughter ( Brodie 2 years old this August) will look with wonder at these birds no matter how long they flutter around the table. Smiling and pointing with love in her eyes.
GOD made those birds for our enjoyment, the squirrels, flowers, ladybirds etc. They are there to decorate our gardens, we all love them. They are alive.
MAN made the plastic birds, artificial flowers, stone gnomes etc. MAN made them not for our enjoyment, but for money. For the world. These are possesions.
We are to be lovers of GOD and his creation.
Why waste our time with the lifeless creation of men? For these are from the world and not from GOD.
EDIT= After reading the post back to myself I thought that GOD and his creation is perfect, with the flowers, birds etc. If we fill our gardens with these statues etc. Are we not saying that GOD missed out a few things when he created our wildlife?
I notice a garden near me which is totally concrete and full of stone statues, a little extreme but I notice now that it contains little if none of what GOD had created. Maybe christerf has a point?
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Cognitive, thank you for your response brother.
"Why waste our time with the lifeless creation of men? For these are from the world and not from GOD"
Did GOD not give us free will and imagination to use? What if a girl wanted a life size pony statue in her room or even backyard? Will you buy a pony and care for it? Can you afford it? Can you care for it night and day? I cannot.
What if you wanted an artistic statue of a man and woman, perhaps romantic in the frontyard. A simple symbol of love, gesture or what have you. Just something nice, do you find this wrong also?
How about reindeers or what about birds? Yes birds are beautiful but do you think it is wrong to have statue birds in the front yard decorating the landscape? I think not myself.
I find this thread has gotten more sorry than a study. Its amazing that people make such a big deal over decorative statues and cannot figure out the most obvious point GOD makes about these "graven images and statues". Idolatory.
Let's stop wasting and rotting away with fruitless discussions. This is the end of times, end of age and we need to reach the lost that they may receive Jesus Christ. This wasted conversation about decorative statues is fruitless.
"Why waste our time with the lifeless creation of men? For these are from the world and not from GOD"
Did GOD not give us free will and imagination to use? What if a girl wanted a life size pony statue in her room or even backyard? Will you buy a pony and care for it? Can you afford it? Can you care for it night and day? I cannot.
What if you wanted an artistic statue of a man and woman, perhaps romantic in the frontyard. A simple symbol of love, gesture or what have you. Just something nice, do you find this wrong also?
How about reindeers or what about birds? Yes birds are beautiful but do you think it is wrong to have statue birds in the front yard decorating the landscape? I think not myself.
I find this thread has gotten more sorry than a study. Its amazing that people make such a big deal over decorative statues and cannot figure out the most obvious point GOD makes about these "graven images and statues". Idolatory.
Let's stop wasting and rotting away with fruitless discussions. This is the end of times, end of age and we need to reach the lost that they may receive Jesus Christ. This wasted conversation about decorative statues is fruitless.
GOD can care for the pony, they live wild alone. He cares for thier every need.
Unless they are in a concrete garden, which man has changed to be decorative.
I have thought little about the idolatary side, just trying to find a point and to understand christserfs angle on the matter.
I have just seen the creation of GOD and the way he made our perfect garden. It contains no statues at all. If we needed them Chad, wouldnt he have created them for us?
EDIT=I agree we are in the last days, so lets tear down this concrete jungle. Stand strong in GODs ways, reunite and turn this world back to how he intended it to be. Get in line brothers, rip up these roads of concrete, throw away these statues and sow the seeds of LOVE.
Wish I could wake up to that, goodnight GOD bless
Unless they are in a concrete garden, which man has changed to be decorative.
I have thought little about the idolatary side, just trying to find a point and to understand christserfs angle on the matter.
I have just seen the creation of GOD and the way he made our perfect garden. It contains no statues at all. If we needed them Chad, wouldnt he have created them for us?
EDIT=I agree we are in the last days, so lets tear down this concrete jungle. Stand strong in GODs ways, reunite and turn this world back to how he intended it to be. Get in line brothers, rip up these roads of concrete, throw away these statues and sow the seeds of LOVE.
Wish I could wake up to that, goodnight GOD bless
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You are free to believe what you believe but Scripture is more powerful than any man's "belief". Scripture says so:
Romans 14:20-22
Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
The whole argument over decorative statues is plain fruitless. GOD is concerned about us humans ultimately. Jesus did not die for animals, He died for us so learn to spend more time with fruitful things such as reaching the lost souls instead of just about what seems condemning others for having decorative statues.
Romans 14:20-22
Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
The whole argument over decorative statues is plain fruitless. GOD is concerned about us humans ultimately. Jesus did not die for animals, He died for us so learn to spend more time with fruitful things such as reaching the lost souls instead of just about what seems condemning others for having decorative statues.
christserf
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Chad:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hbr 10:29)
We must not use grace as a licence to sin. Surely you're not saying that Jesus doesn't mind if we commit murder, adultery, etc? If any part of the Second Commandment was fulfilled and is no longer applicable to us, I'll agree that we don't have to keep it. But you have to show how that command was fulfilled.
Furthermore, who are we to say that Yahweh does not consider it idolatry to put time and effort into making, maintaining, cleaning, and admiring an image? Do you have Scripture for that? Chad, I tell you this with the love of Christ, I think it is a very dangerous thing to add to the Word of the Creator of the Universe unless you have another specific Word telling you to do so.
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
How much time, effort, and resources is spent on making images? How much time is spent admiring images? How much time is spent looking at pictures of Jesus instead of looking at His word? Total this up, see how much of it could be used to instead further the gospel message, and you will see the fruit of this discussion.
No, I'm talking about loving Jesus, one of the ways being to keep His law(John 14:15), which is the "law of the OT" except where it was modified by Jesus (Mt. 5:17).
Keeping the law does not save us, only grace saves us, I agree completely with that. By corollary, breaking the law does not condemn us, for which I am grateful. But Paul says:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hbr 10:29)
We must not use grace as a licence to sin. Surely you're not saying that Jesus doesn't mind if we commit murder, adultery, etc? If any part of the Second Commandment was fulfilled and is no longer applicable to us, I'll agree that we don't have to keep it. But you have to show how that command was fulfilled.
No, I'm merely making an if/then statement. It's like me saying "If A+B=C then C-B=A.
I recently had a conversation with a guy who said that Christians still had to be circumcised in order to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. His reasoning against all of Paul's instructions not to be circumcised was that Paul was only talking about "circumcision for salvation", not circumcision to keep the covenant". He's using the same method that you are: adding to the Word because of a humanly percieved context, not another specific Word.
Furthermore, who are we to say that Yahweh does not consider it idolatry to put time and effort into making, maintaining, cleaning, and admiring an image? Do you have Scripture for that? Chad, I tell you this with the love of Christ, I think it is a very dangerous thing to add to the Word of the Creator of the Universe unless you have another specific Word telling you to do so.
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
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Chad said:
Amen brother Chad...
Some are searing thier conscience here...and teaching the doctrines of men. So be it, but don't try to sear someone elses. This conversation is as far as im concerned vain babling. An idol is an idol, it is made to worship or serve...the second commandment is about idol worship, its just that simple. Yes i agree that people can like things more than God, but that dont make them idols... it makes them distractions and vanity. God knows a real saint doesn't waste his time with distractions and vanity. Because we are told in scripture not to waste our time. Redeem your time for the days are evil.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Take the words and strivings about the law out of the above scripture, and you have your answer to all this post as well, totally vain.
God bless
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christserf
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Fellowservant:
Yes we are to avoid "strivings about the law". I certainly do not strive about the law. I proclaim the law, and if someone thinks that I am in error they can proclaim another part of the Word to me, and I shall examine it. The next verse says
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
You have to know what true doctrine is in order to know that someone is preaching false doctrine; and if the doctrine concerns the law, you have to know what the law is. So we should most definitely know what the law is, and teach it to people; but we should certainly not strive about the law.
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
Yes we are to avoid "strivings about the law". I certainly do not strive about the law. I proclaim the law, and if someone thinks that I am in error they can proclaim another part of the Word to me, and I shall examine it. The next verse says
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
You have to know what true doctrine is in order to know that someone is preaching false doctrine; and if the doctrine concerns the law, you have to know what the law is. So we should most definitely know what the law is, and teach it to people; but we should certainly not strive about the law.
Do you have a response to this:
In Yahweh's Love and Truth,
Christ's Serf
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christserf said:
I did not add anything to the Word. That is a false statement on your part not mine. To also say "who are we to say that Yahweh does not consider it idolatory....".... well, read Scripture. Show me where GOD says it is idolatorous to use any statues or images as decor. I will show you numerous times where GOD references these things as idolatorous when *worshipping* them as gods.
In regards to people spending time making these things and effort, time, resources, etc...what is the point? Does this affect their relationship with GOD just because they make these things for decor? If they worship them, they have a major problem. If they are not worshipping them and are artistic about their created images or statues, what does this have to do with their relationship with GOD at all? How do you know how much time and resources "these people" are using and how do you know they are not looking at the Word? Who are you to say anything about these people? If I create pottery, am I hurting my relationship with GOD? I think not, but nice theory you got anyway.
Numerous people disagree with you and you have yet to even humble yourself to the fact that you just might be wrong.
I recommend prayer.
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It is time to lock this thread. Four pages of fruitlessness is enough.
God bless everyone, look at the Word of GOD always for 100% of your answers and seek the Holy Spirit for guidance, wisdom. Jesus Christ is our Word and our Truth.
Spend more time reaching the lost. That's more important, ultimately so in this day and age.
God bless everyone, look at the Word of GOD always for 100% of your answers and seek the Holy Spirit for guidance, wisdom. Jesus Christ is our Word and our Truth.
Spend more time reaching the lost. That's more important, ultimately so in this day and age.
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Thread 'The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !'
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