The Talking Idol

[james1523]

Revelation 13:15-17King James Version (KJV)

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
In the end times, not only do we have the situation of the anti Christ being worshipped, but also the anti- Christ will create a talking idol, and this talking idol will also be worshipped.
This is a description of a man-made thing (idol), which can talk, which is most likely to be a robot or a humanoid. The antiChrist will succeed in developing an intelligent robot, that people will turn to to provide answers.
Right now, where do most people go to get their answers? Google. The image of the beast will be an advanced kind of Google, that people will turn to for answers and instructions, and that must be worshipped or face death. That is not to say that Google itself is the anti-Christ, but the technological advancements will continue beyond current capabilities until one day we will not have to even use our human brains, but turn to computers which are controlled by the anti-Christ. Science, which is allied with Satan in developing a worldly system against God, will succeed one day in developing humanoids and robots or machines that are as advanced as a human. Together, the anti-Christ and his intelligent humanoid or robot will be worshipped and control the world.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" II Timothy 4: 4

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." II Peter 1: 16

Image in Revelation 13: 14-15 is from eikon, meaning "a likeness , i.e, literally a statue, profile, or figuratively representation, resemblance, image.".

In the Book of Revelation the least likely meaning of an eikon is something literal. In Revelation 13: 14-15 image, from eikon, is a likeness, a representation or resemblance, not a literal sculpture which somehow speaks.

But getting at the meaning of this representation is still not easy. This is partly because the False Prophet, the second beast in Revelation 13, leads people to make a likeness of the first beast, but the first beast is defined in Revelation 1-2 as coming out of the sea and having the traits of the leopard, bear and lion. And then in Revelation 13: 3 there is the head of the first beast whose deadly wound was healed. What exactly is the first beast?

You have to understand what the first beast is to make sense out of the False Prophet leading people to make a likeness to it.

If you take the first beast to be the U.S. government after it becomes the national security state, making a Christian likeness of the government might be going to the government beast and incorporating churches under the IRS. This act, to some extent, makes the churches like the government beast. Making the churches like the world and the government is a line of thought for interpreting Revelation 13: 14-15.

If you pay more attention to the statement in Revelation 13: 14 about making the image to the beast whose deadly wound was healed, this can mean the churches honoring the nation of Israel so that the churches become like that nation and its religion. This too can be a fruitful line of thought for making sense of the image of the beast - but Christian Zionists can't go there.

 

[DHC]

Hello Tulsa.

Here is a verse that must be interpreted correctly by any eschatology view point.

2 Thessalonians 2
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes
his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Whoever or whatever the antichrist is seen to be, this antichrist must be able to sit on a seat
in the temple of God. It would appear that the antichrist arrives in human form because he
sits in a seat in the temple. Any method of interpretation that is applied to this verse must
address the fact that, whatever is the entity that the beast is assumed to be. This entity must be
able to be seen as God.

I see Jesus as being God, hence Tulsa, I am not looking for the beast to be anything but a
man who claims divinity and worship. If the antichrist is not human in form, then how can the
antichrist claim to be God and be seated in the temple?

 

[james1523]

The beast referred to in verse 1 is the 4th beast mentioned in Daniel 7:7 and is definitely a person, rather than symbolism for something else.
The anti Christ will come from any one of the gentile nations around the Mediterranean sea, as the verse indicates. Daniel 8:8-9 and elsewhere, indicates the antiChrist will be part Greek, part Roman, and Daniel 11:36-37 indicates he will be part Jew. He will be a Roman Grecian Jew, but will keep his Jewish ancestry secret. It will be someone like Hitler, a gentile who kept his Jewish ancestry secret.
According to verse 13, the power of the antiChrist will make some kind of idol talk, and such power will cause people on the earth to worship him as a god.
My speculation that the talking idol will be some kind of scientific advancement, is given by the fact that
a) satan has no real power to make idols talk, the only power he has comes from human endeavors and deception. My thinking is that what John saw in his vision, to him was a talking idol, but to us might be recognized as a robot or humanoid. As an example, look up the NASA Valkyrie humanoid.. the word Valkyrie has a connection with Nazi Germany.
b) if the antiChrist is someone like Hitler, they will probably be very much into scientific achievements and more advanced than anyone else, such as Hitler was in rocket technology and even the nuclear bomb.

 

[DHC]

The beast referred to in verse 1 is the 4th beast mentioned in Daniel 7:7 and is definitely a person, rather than symbolism for something else.
The anti Christ will come from any one of the gentile nations around the Mediterranean sea, as the verse indicates. Daniel 8:8-9 and elsewhere, indicates the antiChrist will be part Greek, part Roman, and Daniel 11:36-37 indicates he will be part Jew. He will be a Roman Grecian Jew, but will keep his Jewish ancestry secret. It will be someone like Hitler, a gentile who kept his Jewish ancestry secret.
According to verse 13, the power of the antiChrist will make some kind of idol talk, and such power will cause people on the earth to worship him as a god.
My speculation that the talking idol will be some kind of scientific advancement, is given by the fact that
a) satan has no real power to make idols talk, the only power he has comes from human endeavors and deception. My thinking is that what John saw in his vision, to him was a talking idol, but to us might be recognized as a robot or humanoid. As an example, look up the NASA Valkyrie humanoid.. the word Valkyrie has a connection with Nazi Germany.
b) if the antiChrist is someone like Hitler, they will probably be very much into scientific achievements and more advanced than anyone else, such as Hitler was in rocket technology and even the nuclear bomb.

Hello James.

After reading your post and especially the line below, it may be advisable to be more flexible in
your thinking.

satan has no real power to make idols talk, the only power he has comes from human endeavors and deception.

Notice in the following verse James, that the antichrist 'doeth great wonders', these wonders
are not necessarily the result of human agency.

Revelation 13
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men

Yet again James these spirits are 'working miracles'.

Revelation 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, go forth unto the kings of the earth and of
the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

To hold onto a rigid system of interpretation, in the way you perceive the fulfillment of prophecy,
risks excluding other possibilities. The antichrist sets himself up as God on earth and will receive
worship. This antichrist may have super natural abilities and he does not appear to be just a deceptive
person. He definitely performs wonders in direct competition with the Christ, how else could anyone see
him as God?

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

After reading your post and especially the line below, it may be advisable to be more flexible in
your thinking.

Notice in the following verse James, that the antichrist 'doeth great wonders', these wonders
are not necessarily the result of human agency.

Revelation 13
And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men

Yet again James these spirits are 'working miracles'.

Revelation 16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, go forth unto the kings of the earth and of
the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

To hold onto a rigid system of interpretation, in the way you perceive the fulfillment of prophecy,
risks excluding other possibilities. The antichrist sets himself up as God on earth and will receive
worship. This antichrist may have super natural abilities and he does not appear to be just a deceptive
person. He definitely performs wonders in direct competition with the Christ, how else could anyone see
him as God?

DHC, one does not need supernatural signs and wonders to convince a person that they are "God". The leadership of North Korea, is one such example, and there are many others. The power of human deceit and lies will work just fine.
There is really nothing to suggest that the wonders have to be of a supernatural nature, and I'm a little afraid that loosening my rigid interpretation will infer that Satan has supernatural powers on par with God's.
However, even if Satan did have such powers, I know that the antiChrist will be a man, not an angel, and therefore I doubt that he will have any supernatural abilities, and must rely upon human wisdom and deceit.
All his wonders and miracles will be produced by the same power which produces false miracles, signs and wonders today - the psychic or soulish powers (as in Chi Energy, positive thinking, yoga etc), hypnosis, or science. For example, based upon what I've read of overseas missionaries, healings performed by witch doctors are not real miracles, they do not last, but they deceive the receiver into thinking they are really healed. God's healing is permanent and effectual and can truly be considered supernatural. I don't believe that demons have any power to heal or perform miracles, all they can do is to deceive a human being into thinking that a miracle has occurred when in fact it has not.

 

[DHC]

Hello James.

Sorry for the delay but I have been away for a few days.

DHC, one does not need supernatural signs and wonders to convince a person that they are "God".

To convince the entire world may require 'working miracles' (Rev 16:14), James.
That is what the text says James, that is not my idea.

There is really nothing to suggest that the wonders have to be of a supernatural nature, and I'm a little afraid that loosening my rigid interpretation
will infer that Satan has supernatural powers on par with God's.

Not sure where you got the idea that Satan's powers would be 'on par with God's'?

However, even if Satan did have such powers, I know that the antiChrist will be a man, not an angel, and therefore I doubt that he will have
any supernatural abilities, and must rely upon human wisdom and deceit.

The antichrist is the one who stands as God to the entire world. This fellow does not control
a domain or a kingdom with a limited power base such as a dictator. The antichrist controls the entire
world and has absolute control, the antichrist will be worshiped as God Himself.

The antichrist is the demonic savior of mankind, the exact and alternative representation of the Christ!

All his wonders and miracles will be produced by the same power which produces false miracles, signs and wonders today -
the psychic or soulish powers (as in Chi Energy, positive thinking, yoga etc), hypnosis, or science.

Not necessarily true as the scripture calls the demonic display 'miracles'. The devil does have
limited supernatural power because the devil is not human, James. Though angels are above us in the
hierarchy and far more powerful, we know very little about these entities. It would be unwise
to under estimate their potential power, especially when they own the realm that we live in.

 

[james1523]

To convince the entire world may require 'working miracles' (Rev 16:14), James.
That is what the text says James, that is not my idea.

The word can also mean "signs". The word miracle is used in a non-supernatural context all the time, in our language. A miracle is something which cannot be explained.

Not sure where you got the idea that Satan's powers would be 'on par with God's'?

That is really your suggestion, not mine. You suggest that in order for the anti Christ to be worshipped as God, he must have the same sorts of supernatural powers as God. I think human history and human nature proves that this is not the case. Billions of people worship a god or gods or even human beings, without an ounce of supernatural power. All the anti-Christ needs is to sway popular belief, which he can accomplish by human , psychological or even chemical/medical means (e.g, computer chip implant in the brain).

The antichrist is the one who stands as God to the entire world. This fellow does not control
a domain or a kingdom with a limited power base such as a dictator. The antichrist controls the entire
world and has absolute control, the antichrist will be worshiped as God Himself.
The antichrist is the demonic savior of mankind, the exact and alternative representation of the Christ!

It is not just all about the abilities of the anti Christ - remember that people, are becoming more and more foolish, as well, and God will send a spirit of delusion (2 Thess 2:11). It is well within a dictator's ability to control the whole world without any supernatural power - Hitler nearly did it, or at least most of Europe and Africa. Dictators are able to control whole nations, even multiple nations, without exercising supernatural power. Cult leaders, are also able to amass large followings without supernatural powers.

Not necessarily true as the scripture calls the demonic display 'miracles'. The devil does have
limited supernatural power because the devil is not human, James. Though angels are above us in the
hierarchy and far more powerful, we know very little about these entities. It would be unwise
to under estimate their potential power, especially when they own the realm that we live in.

Fallen mankind is lower than angels but Christians are higher than angels in the hierarchy because of their union with Christ (Heb 1:4-14, 1 John 4:4) and status as sons of God and Christians will judge the angels (1 Cor 6:3). If we were not, we could not cast out demons and demons would not obey us.

In this context, a miracle is something not understood. The devil did not use any supernatural power to trick Adam and Eve, tempt Christ, or anyone else. The devil has no power of himself, even though he is a supernatural being. The devil only has the power that God gives him (Job 1:6-12). The devil caused fire to fall from heaven, only because God gave him that power. But the supernatural power ultimately belongs to God. Otherwise, the devil would be roaming the earth and causing fire to fall from heaven all the time, and doing what he can to destroy humanity with this supernatural power. But this is not the case, because unlike the Hollywood portrayal of the devil as the most powerful being second to or equal to God, he is a fallen angel, and no greater than an angel, with no greater supernatural abilities than Gabriel or Michael, and must resort to trickery and deceit, as with Adam and Eve, as with Christ, as with Judas, as with Peter. A human being, created in God's image and likeness, and filled with the Spirit of God, as God's sons, as Christians are, has more supernatural power than the devil. The devil, who does not have the Holy Spirit, cannot have the same degree of power as the Christian. This is why, as I have read about overseas missionaries, the powers of darkness do not work against them and God's power wins every time. This is why the prophets of Baal couldn't do anything, but Elijah could. The magicians and sorcerers which Moses faced, before Pharaoh, were not harnessing the supernatural powers of the devil, they were harnessing the psychological powers of the soulish realm, the "Earth power" if you like. It is possible to tap into this power by physical or mental exertion, meditation, drugs, etc. It's what the Shaolin monks use as well as the Hindu gurus and many others, including, but not limited to, Catholic monks who practice asceticism and meditation. With this power they can do crazy things, such as withstand great pain, sharp objects, survive in unspeakable conditions (heat, snow, water, starvation etc), not be burnt by fire, even fly or levitate. They don't receive supernatural power from the devil, they get this power from within themselves, and satan merely encourages them and deceives/tricks them into harnessing this power, with the same lie he told Adam and Eve "you shall be like God".

 

[Travis]

Whoever or whatever the antichrist is seen to be, this antichrist must be able to sit on a seat
in the temple of God. It would appear that the antichrist arrives in human form because he
sits in a seat in the temple. Any method of interpretation that is applied to this verse must
address the fact that, whatever is the entity that the beast is assumed to be. This entity must be
able to be seen as God.

Hey DHC,

Just curious, but what do you think about this verse in relation to what you are talking about with a temple:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV -
16 Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you (plural) are that temple.

​

It seems to me there are more than just physical temples built from stones, bricks, etc talked about in the scriptures. Maybe there is another type of temple being talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2 we can put on the table and consider other than just a physical one?

Also, that Greek word there for "destroy," used twice in verse 17 has a range of meaning:

Outline of Biblical Usage: φθείρω G5351

to corrupt, to destroy

• in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties
• to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide
• to be destroyed, to perish
• in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

I find that very interesting regarding what is being discussed here.


Just thinking out loud,

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[DHC]

Hey DHC,

Just curious, but what do you think about this verse in relation to what you are talking about with a temple:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV -
16 Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you (plural) are that temple.It seems to me there are more than just physical temples built from stones, bricks, etc talked about in the scriptures. Maybe there is another type of temple being talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2 we can put on the table and consider other than just a physical one?​

Travis

Hello Travis.

Thanks for the question Travis.

You said;

It seems to me there are more than just physical temples built from stones, bricks, etc talked about in the scriptures.
Maybe there is another type of temple being talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2 we can put on the table and consider
other than just a physical one?

Your quotation from (1 Corinthians 3:16-17) refers to the temple that God resides in. In this verse
the temple is us, the meaning of temple here is the spiritual temple which houses the Holy Spirit.

The temple in (2 Thessalonians 2) is a physical structure, which in the physical realm, is a place
where God is worshiped. Though I am unconvinced that this temple is a rebuilt temple in
Jerusalem.

I doubt whether the temple mentioned in (2 Thessalonians 2) is anything but a physical temple.

Though I do applaud your attempt to avoid reading this verse in the obvious way.

 

[Travis]

Though I do applaud your attempt to avoid reading this verse in the obvious way.

Hey DHC,

Well, thank you. I do appreciate people who look for the positive in any situation.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[DHC]

Hello James.

You made the following statement;

The word can also mean "signs". The word miracle is used in a non-supernatural context all the time,
in our language. A miracle is something which cannot be explained.

A sign and a miracle are different words in our English language.

These two words are not synonyms James, because they have different meanings.

Oxford Dictionary

Sign
An object, quality, or event whose presence or occurrence indicates the probable presence or
occurrence of something else

Miracle
An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is
therefore attributed to a divine agency

The Koine Greek word that we are discussing in this New Testament verse is Strongs G 4592

So we have some choice here, a sign, a wonder, or a miracle.

A sign points to something else, whereas a miracle confirms the presence of something great
or even the presence of divinity itself.

That is really your suggestion, not mine. You suggest that in order for the anti Christ to be worshipped
as God, he must have the same sorts of supernatural powers as God.

The antichrist can perform miracles but not on par with God, the antichrist cannot create life for example.
The fire that the antichrist brings down from heaven is a miracle and not a sign, that is in itself the proof.

It is not just all about the abilities of the anti Christ - remember that people, are becoming more and more foolish

People have always been foolish, rather they become more immoral and ungodly and that is the critical problem.

As for Hitler, he is a very poor example of someone who controls people and receives worship.
Hitler had the support of some very powerful people and was just a person in the right place at
the right time. An ego with a stage to perform on, ten years earlier the guy was in jail, a nobody
with no future. I doubt whether Hitler even had the full support of his own military, their were
attempts on his life from time to time. Hitler made ridiculous decisions from the start to the
finish of his reign. Attacking Poland was without doubt his undoing, not even sure this fellow
was sane.

Whereas the antichrist is an extremely capable individual that will guile the entire world into the
worship of himself. Not someone with an ideology that the masses agree with James. Hitler had
a philosophy he believed in regards to the third reich and was not an antichrist by any definition.

Fallen mankind is lower than angels but Christians are higher than angels in the hierarchy because of their union with
Christ (Heb 1:4-14, 1 John 4:4) and status as sons of God and Christians will judge the angels (1 Cor 6:3). If we were not,
we could not cast out demons and demons would not obey us.

Demons do not obey us James, demons are under the sovereign power of God. We use the
name of Jesus in casting out demons, we have no power in ourselves. We do not judge the angels
in the human form either but in our resurrected form. All Christians in the earthly realm are lower
than the angels, we must be patient and wait for our promotion.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet," Acts 7: 47-48

"Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?" Isaiah 66: 1

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." I Corinthians 3: 16-17

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" I Corinthians 6: 19

Where is the scripture that the followers of Darby, Scofield and Chafer can claim contradicts these scriptures? And where is the ambiguity in these four texts that could allow Christian Zionists to claim that God still dwells in a temple made by men? Where is the loophole in these revelations through which Christian Zionism can drive its false doctrine that a temple in Jerusalem, or any temple anywhere, is the temple of God? There is no authority in scripture to continue the argument on the side of the Christian Zionists. Their authority is John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer. Sometimes though the followers of these guys will try to use slight of hand procedures and/or will try to discredit whoever is presenting scripture.

 

[DHC]

"But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet," Acts 7: 47-48

"Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?" Isaiah 66: 1

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." I Corinthians 3: 16-17

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" I Corinthians 6: 19

Where is the scripture that the followers of Darby, Scofield and Chafer can claim contradicts these scriptures? And where is the ambiguity in these four texts that could allow Christian Zionists to claim that God still dwells in a temple made by men? Where is the loophole in these revelations through which Christian Zionism can drive its false doctrine that a temple in Jerusalem, or any temple anywhere, is the temple of God? There is no authority in scripture to continue the argument on the side of the Christian Zionists. Their authority is John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer. Sometimes though the followers of these guys will try to use slight of hand procedures and/or will try to discredit whoever is presenting scripture.

Hello Tulsa.

Christian Zionists may not be correct Tulsa.

Though the issue is not about which temple God exists in, as we know that
God does not exist in any temple.

The issue is and always is, which temple will the antichrist chose to sit in.

Because the antichrist will proclaim himself to be God and sit in a temple.

This we know Tulsa because the scriptures tell us so.

Old Covenant Israel ended a long time ago and so the temple in Jerusalem
is so remote a possibility, that it does not even warrant any consideration.

 

[james1523]

A sign and a miracle are different words in our English language.

These two words are not synonyms James, because they have different meanings.

Oxford Dictionary

Sign
An object, quality, or event whose presence or occurrence indicates the probable presence or
occurrence of something else

Miracle
An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is
therefore attributed to a divine agency

The Koine Greek word that we are discussing in this New Testament verse is Strongs G 4592

So we have some choice here, a sign, a wonder, or a miracle.

A sign points to something else, whereas a miracle confirms the presence of something great
or even the presence of divinity itself.

Some Bible versions say sign, others says miracle. In English, a miracle can also mean a marvel, a wonder. e.g. the birth of a baby, is sometimes called a miracle.

People have always been foolish, rather they become more immoral and ungodly and that is the critical problem.

As for Hitler, he is a very poor example of someone who controls people and receives worship.
Hitler had the support of some very powerful people and was just a person in the right place at
the right time. An ego with a stage to perform on, ten years earlier the guy was in jail, a nobody
with no future. I doubt whether Hitler even had the full support of his own military, their were
attempts on his life from time to time. Hitler made ridiculous decisions from the start to the
finish of his reign. Attacking Poland was without doubt his undoing, not even sure this fellow
was sane.

Whereas the antichrist is an extremely capable individual that will guile the entire world into the
worship of himself. Not someone with an ideology that the masses agree with James. Hitler had
a philosophy he believed in regards to the third reich and was not an antichrist by any definition.

People definitely worshipped and idolized Hitler, that is a fact of WW2. How Hitler achieved it, whether due to his own cleverness or because he was in the right place at the right time, is irrelevant I would think.The Antichrist does not have to be an extremely capable individual, you are placing far too much importance on the person himself, and less on the fact that thsi is all ordained by God's sovereignty, it will happen a) because God said it would, b) because of who the anti christ is, c) because of the world situation, d) because of the gullible state of the people etc. The anti-Christ is not the devil incarnate, as portrayed by some movies, the anti-Christ is just a man like you or I, like Hitler or Stalin or Mao.

Demons do not obey us James, demons are under the sovereign power of God. We use the
name of Jesus in casting out demons, we have no power in ourselves. We do not judge the angels
in the human form either but in our resurrected form. All Christians in the earthly realm are lower
than the angels, we must be patient and wait for our promotion.

By virtue of the fact that we are sons of God now, we are higher than the angels as soon as the Holy Spirit comes to live within us and we are identified with Christ.
You said "Demons do not obey us.. ", but the Bible says
Luke 10:17 says "Lord, even the demons obey us when we use your name!".

 

[Travis]

Though the issue is not about which temple God exists in, as we know that
God does not exist in any temple.

The issue is and always is, which temple will the antichrist chose to sit in.

Because the antichrist will proclaim himself to be God and sit in a temple.

Hey DHC,

Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't it say, "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Not, "a temple," or "some temple," but "The temple of God." The, a definite article, declaring that it is the singular temple of God. Doesn't that narrow it down pretty well? Which building on earth is "The temple of God?" I would sure like to know which one it is so that I may visit there some day.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[DHC]

Hey DHC,

Correct me if I am wrong here, but doesn't it say, "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Not, "a temple," or "some temple," but "The temple of God." The, a definite article, declaring that it is the singular temple of God. Doesn't that narrow it down pretty well? Which building on earth is "The temple of God?" I would sure like to know which one it is so that I may visit there some day.

Grace to you,

Travis

Hello Travis.

You stated the following;

Doesn't that narrow it down pretty well? Which building on earth is "The temple of God?

There are some problems with your view regarding this temple.

i) The temple in Jerusalem had no seats for anyone to sit on. So how could that temple be the temple Paul is referring to?

ii) The Koine Greek word for temple in (2 Thessalonians 2), Strongs G 3485, can be any heathen temple or shrine.

iii) This Old Covenant temple has not existed for two thousand years.

iv) Why would secular Israel bother rebuilding a two thousand year old temple?

v) The temple would need to be built on the temple mount, three Muslim mosques currently occupy that piece of real estate.

vi) Israel is no longer a theocracy, Israel is a democracy, secular governments do not build temples.

vii) Israel has enough on it's plate without provoking the Islamic world even more by building a temple.

viii) The whole idea of the temple in Jerusalem was a place to sacrifice. If you for one moment think that anyone
these days is going to get away with sacrificing animals, think again.

We live in the twenty first century, the whole idea of a functioning temple from the first century borders on ludicrous.

 

[Travis]

i) The temple in Jerusalem had no seats for anyone to sit on. So how could that temple be the temple Paul is referring to?

You are so right, which brings up an awesome point. The temple that was built on earth, or even just the tabernacle in the wilderness, was built perfectly and precisely to God's standards. Every single thing about that physical temple that God had them build was representative of Jesus Christ in some manner or fashion. The whole building was descriptive of Jesus Christ himself. It was also a shadow or copy of the spiritual temple in the third heaven. So why would God not put any seats in the physical temple he had the Hebrews build?:

Revelation 11:19
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.​

The reason there were no seats in that earthly temple, is because Jesus's work was not yet finished. He had not yet come down to earth as a man and shed his blood on the cross. So when in Hebrews 1: 3 it says:

"Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"​

It is saying that Jesus, in the temple of God which is in heaven, sat down! There are no seats in the temple! But Jesus sat down? Jesus "Sat Down on the right hand of the Majesty on high," because his work was finished! It is done! The blood has been shed. That is such a significant thing that Jesus sat down in the heavenly temple of God. Wow.

The first time that Lucifer/Satan got "throne" (Get it?.... ) out of heaven, it was because he tried to sit in the place that only one person belongs. That person is God. I think he's going to try and sit somewhere where only God belongs again. I can't think of any physical building on earth that can ever meet that kind of description in our day and age.

We live in the twenty first century, the whole idea of a functioning temple from the first century borders on ludicrous.

I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[tulsa 2011]

"The temple in Jerusalem had no seats for anyone to sit on. So how could that temple be the temple Paul is referring to?"

"Sit" in the temple is metaphoric. It is not metaphoric for those deceived by John Darby, C.I. Scofield and others. And - in Christian Zionism, also called dispensationalism, the temple of God in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is in Jerusalem - because the one man dispensationalist anti-Christ is said to make a "treaty" with the nation of Israel and then later "sits" in their rebuilt temple. They get the "treaty" from the covenant in Daniel 9: 27, where they say the "he" there is their anti-Christ, but the "he" refers to Messiah in verse 26, a mistake you do not want to make, making Messiah into the anti-Christ. And thats only one problem in their end time prophecy system, because in I John 2: 18 and I John 4: 3 there is no one man anti-Christ, but the spirit of anti-Christ and John said there were many anti-Christs running around in his time. The man of sin in II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 could be the spirit of anti-Christ who occupies the inner lives of those claiming to be Christians. It could also be the False Prophet of Revelation 19: 20 and Revelation 20: 10, who is the second beast in Revelation 13. And the False Prophet is many, not one man as Christ says in Matthew 24: 11.

Admitting one part of the prophecy system of Christian Zionism is false opens the door to see the entire man made doctrines of Christian Zionism to be seen as false, when compared with scripture.

 

[james1523]

i) The temple in Jerusalem had no seats for anyone to sit on. So how could that temple be the temple Paul is referring to?

So if someone invited you to dinner at a restaurant and there are no seats left, does this mean you would think you are at the wrong restaurant?