There are no apostles in today's age

[DHC]

Hello all.

1 Corinthians 12
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church,
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, administrations,
various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers,
are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healing, do they? All do not
speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

Whether or not you have an opinion on whether the office of an apostle or a prophet is still a valid ministry.
Your opinion, and whatever that opinion may be, is over ridden by the clear instruction of the apostle Paul.

We are specifically instructed to seek the greater gifts, so even if you think that the ministry of a prophet
is invalid, you are still required to seek the higher office of a prophet. Same goes for every other greater
gift or ministry, that Paul has mentioned in his letters.

1 Corinthians 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

 

[Dovegiven]

I was always told it just meant one that is sent. I just looked it up in the strongs concordance

Strong's Concordance
apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Short Definition: an apostle, a messenger, an envoy, a delegate
Definition: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.

Some denominations believe verse 13 was accomplished before the last apostle died. That's an old tale I openly argued in my Baptist days. If that was factual, then all those other ministries would have died off then too. There is not a word anywhere in the Bible predicting that.

Ephesians 4:11-14 (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Anyone care to declare the Church of today needs less perfecting, no longer needing to minister, or for members to be edifying anyone? In my opinion the Church needs as much if not more of all that, needing at least the same power those Christians had in the first century.
What I'm seeing is a dying off of the true Church, which has steadily "killed off" all the elements of ministerial powers, such that what remains is fulfillment of
2 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV)
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We all witness more church organizations accepting practices that are listed in the scriptures as abominations before God. Members fear lawsuits if certain parts of the Bible are preached. It all began with eliminating a part here, a part there. I liken the process to a community making it illegal to possess an arrow with an arrowhead on it. Next, they outlaw stiff shafts, allowing rubber shafts. Then they outlaw feathers, since those aid in accuracy in hitting a target. Then they require the bow string to be removed. All that's left is a bow good only for whacking weeds in the lawn, and rubber shafts for scratching backs.

Mankind doesn't have a right to delete anything from the scriptures, but does have a dire warning if done. Whatever has passed away must be declared somewhere in scriptures, else our Bible is become a "living document" subject to much greater changes to suit each wicked generation, in efforts to change God. Heathen religions already do that by adding more gods and goddesses, which in effect changes the attributes of whatever deity they have at the top. Many people want to regard the U.S. Constitution the same way, wanting to re-write it and abolish the Bill of Rights to eliminate such things as freedom of religion.

Until the Church gets back to the Bible, we will see no revival. The Church is playing games with immorality, losing the last of its power, and could easily find widespread laws against having a church. Would God prevent that? Not if we are deep into immoral compromise and outright sin. If someone claims to be called to be an apostle, and does things like Paul and Barnabus did, let them. You don't have to give them a penny, as those actually sent are provided for by God who sends. How would they affect your church? If one shows up, you are free to reject. Be careful, though, not to unwittingly reject an angel sent to help you because you already rejected a minister God dispatched to bless you.

 

[Dovegiven]

There is a spiritual gift of apostle that is different from the office of apostle.

There are no more that hold the office of Apostle today, but the gift of apostleship continues in a different sense. Jesus gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers at His ascension (Ephesians 4:7-12), and these represent a distinct category of apostles. They do not have the authority to write Scripture as the original Apostles did. They also have a different purpose in the sense of establishing the church – the foundation has already been set.

The mission for those with the gift of apostleship today is to plant new ministries and churches, go into places where the Gospel is not preached, reach across cultures to establish churches in challenging environments, raise up and develop leaders, call out and lead pastors and shepherds, and much more. They often have many different gifts that allow them to fulfill their ministry. These are leaders of leaders and ministers of ministers. They are influencers. They are typically entrepreneurial and are able to take risks and perform difficult tasks. Missionaries, church planters, certain Christian scholars and institutional leaders, and those leading multiple ministries or churches often have the gift of apostleship. See also Ephesians 4:11, I Corinthians 12:28, Acts 1:21-22, 1 Corinthians 9:1.

Excerpted from:
Spiritual Gift of Apostleship

What you listed are the primary duties of the original apostles. While thinking about this, how many of those 15 apostles listed in the New Testament actually wrote scripture? (12 original + Matthias + Paul + Barnabus=15)

Who wrote Mark? An apostle?
Who wrote Luke? An apostle?
Who wrote Acts? An apostle?

Some authors of scripture were not listed as apostles, but perhaps they were but didn't claim that?

Wherever you find the Greek word apostolos, it means apostle as used by Paul. An apostle is an apostle, there being no distinction between "spiritual apostle" and "office of apostle". Church tradition made that up. The apostles established pastors, Gr. poimēn, in the new churches they started, assigning them as shepherds, training up teachers, and setting order of services, then moving on to start another church. Each ministry has its own Greek word/title/name designation, definitions very specific. Modern apostles still do exactly that, though quickly arrested and imprisoned often without trials, just like the original sometimes were.

 

[Ophel]

What you listed are the primary duties of the original apostles. While thinking about this, how many of those 15 apostles listed in the New Testament actually wrote scripture? (12 original + Matthias + Paul + Barnabus=15)

Who wrote Mark? An apostle?
Who wrote Luke? An apostle?
Who wrote Acts? An apostle?

Some authors of scripture were not listed as apostles, but perhaps they were but didn't claim that?

Wherever you find the Greek word apostolos, it means apostle as used by Paul. An apostle is an apostle, there being no distinction between "spiritual apostle" and "office of apostle". Church tradition made that up. The apostles established pastors, Gr. poimēn, in the new churches they started, assigning them as shepherds, training up teachers, and setting order of services, then moving on to start another church. Each ministry has its own Greek word/title/name designation, definitions very specific. Modern apostles still do exactly that, though quickly arrested and imprisoned often without trials, just like the original sometimes were.

What I listed are what apostles of today are doing.

 

[Dovegiven]

Then we have agreement. Most apostles never wrote scriptures that we know of, so you can line through that requirement you got off that spiritual gift source. Nothing has changed among apostles in 2,000 years. A few were led of God to write scriptures, while most just carried on doing what apostles do today!

 

[Ophel]

Then we have agreement. Most apostles never wrote scriptures that we know of, so you can line through that requirement you got off that spiritual gift source. Nothing has changed among apostles in 2,000 years. A few were led of God to write scriptures, while most just carried on doing what apostles do today!

Exactly.

 

[Grace]

Did Paul qualify for a place among the Twelve? Was Paul a follower of Jesus since John the Baptist?

 

[Grace]

Is it appropriate to examine anyone who seeks your recognition as an apostle? The church at Ephesus did this. Didn't they find some fakes? Didn't they know there were still apostles somewhere? Otherwise the Ephesians would not have tested these men, but would have simply rejected them outright, correct?

 

[Dovegiven]

Did Paul qualify for a place among the Twelve? Was Paul a follower of Jesus since John the Baptist?

It was apparently no small matter filling out the original 12 followers since hearing John the Baptist as well as following Jesus to the end. But that didn't establish a limit on how many more men could be called by God to be an apostle. Counting Judas, Matthias made it 13 apostles, Paul 14th, Barnabus 15th, neither of which met the conditions of being numbered among the 12. But, I notice nobody answered those question about who wrote Mark, Luke and Acts, it being Mark and Luke, Yet, modern lists of requirements list authority to write scriptures. From the modern list then Mark and Luke qualified to be called as apostles too. But the Bible doesn't give a prerequisite of authority to write scriptures for potential apostles. Those originally called were nowhere near qualified for any ministry, for that matter. Jesus prepared them to be apostles, like he prepares us today for various ministries. There might be a few hundred apostles in this world today, gone or preparing to go into unknown places not on maps, saints going there paying a huge cost to establish the Church. Once their work is done the evangelists and prophets follow, encouraging pastors, teachers and congregations.

 

[Dovegiven]

Is it appropriate to examine anyone who seeks your recognition as an apostle? The church at Ephesus did this. Didn't they find some fakes? Didn't they know there were still apostles somewhere? Otherwise the Ephesians would not have tested these men, but would have simply rejected them outright, correct?

Every Christian ought to make a habit of testing the spirits. Whether we judge a ministry accurately or not, though, there remains the Acts 9 act of the Lord toward Paul, calling him to his ministry. Who did the Lord send to Saul (Paul)? A "certain disciple" named Ananius. Maybe one of the Christians in Damascus on Saul's hit list. There were visions from the Lord to both Ananius and Saul, like happened with Peter and Cornelius, sort of introducing them to each other n the spirit. The Christain laid hands on Paul, restoring his eyesight, Paul being filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately he was brought back to full health by the local disciples, then set out immediately to preach rthe gospel, proving Jesus was the Christ.

Is that not a repeatable event? If not, then someone please tell me why not using a prohibition from scriptures. Whatever God forbids man to do, he tells man. Otherwise, the promise of God to give apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers is yea and amen in Him. From the recent Pew poll and others giving America a less than pleasing report card on our spirituality, and given that persecution in the world is on a rise similar to how the first Church was hunted down like escaped convicts, there has not in my opinion been a higher demand for the five-fold ministry to boldly emerge in great numbers with power and signs in these last days. But we'll have to get past the current dance between increasingly politically correct, fearful, compromising, winking at sin to attract more young people to attend our churches. Right now my guess few actual God-appointed ministers will attract any attention at all except among those already listening. God allows that, as he did with Israel, letting them ignore many prophets until there was no Israel.

 

[rag4aCrown]

So why not just accept wrong, who is anyone to fight against God. God is able to raise up apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors... still today. The scriptures clearing states this. Stephen (acts 6 and 7) was also and apostle and is called the first marytr after Christ. I believe we are even giving written testimony of his resurrection at the end of chapter 7. In chapter 8, notice, it was Paul who stood by guarding their clothes, consenting to Stephens death. Paul had not been called yet.

 

[Grace]

Jesus is not dead; he can continue to call apostles just like he does pastors and teachers. Paul said Jesus does this for the equipping of the saints.

 

[rag4aCrown]

Amen @Grace

 

[Nang]

He's wrong @Travis and I am against anyone who attempts to prophecy or claim that something has happened in so and so year (in modern times at least) such as this guy Wager, or say Maya Calender's 2012 end of the world, or false prophets claiming they are the second coming of Jesus. Nonsense.

Wager is a false prophet and must be exposed and opposed.

It bothers me greatly that he calls himself "Reformed" and for the record, I being of the Reformed faith, have no association with him or his movement.

 

[Travis]

Wager is a false prophet and must be exposed and opposed.

It bothers me greatly that he calls himself "Reformed" and for the record, I being of the Reformed faith, have no association with him or his movement.

C. Peter Wagner = D (spelled it wrong the first time)

I didn't know he called himself reformed.

He surely is an evil man.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Ophel]

C. Peter Wagner = D (spelled it wrong the first time)

I didn't know he called himself reformed.

He surely is an evil man.

Blessings,

Travis

No he isn't an evil man. You need to be very careful about speaking evil of people.

 

[pajaro]

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (1 Cor 12:27-31)

What is interesting about this scripture is the fact that it says, "God hath set some in the church". In regular English, this seems to mean God has set some members in the body of Christ in the church. However, the word 'church' in the Bible should mean all the true believers who are saved. But how can God only put only some of his members of his body into those who are saved? I would have expected him to put all members of his body into those who are saved. When I look up the word 'some' in the Greek, I find it simply means 'truly or indeed'. So the verse is not saying God only puts 'some' of his members into the group of saved persons. Rather, it is saying God has put all of his members indeed in the group of saved persons, it seems.

 

[Travis]

No he isn't an evil man. You need to be very careful about speaking evil of people.

Thank you for the concern. Perhaps someday we can take a closer look at what this man, who believes we are in an apostolic reformation, really teaches.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[Ophel]

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (1 Cor 12:27-31)

What is interesting about this scripture is the fact that it says, "God hath set some in the church". In regular English, this seems to mean God has set some members in the body of Christ in the church. However, the word 'church' in the Bible should mean all the true believers who are saved. But how can God only put only some of his members of his body into those who are saved? I would have expected him to put all members of his body into those who are saved. When I look up the word 'some' in the Greek, I find it simply means 'truly or indeed'. So the verse is not saying God only puts 'some' of his members into the group of saved persons. Rather, it is saying God has put all of his members indeed in the group of saved persons, it seems.

"Some" refers to the provision of "some" parts of the Body of Christ for use in the local church.

1 Corinthians:12:27-28
27 All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it. 28 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:

first are apostles,
second are prophets,
third are teachers,
then those who do miracles,
those who have the gift of healing,
those who can help others,
those who have the gift of leadership,
those who speak in unknown languages.


In Greek, this is the word for "some":
G3739
ὅς, ἥ, ὅ
hos hē ho
hos, hay, ho
Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that: - one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also G3757.

 

[Ophel]

Thank you for the concern. Perhaps someday we can take a closer look at what this man, who believes we are in an apostolic reformation, really teaches.

Blessings,

Travis

Maybe you can. I already have done my homework.