this is a battle between good and evil, they need our prayers

[Enxu]

But to answer your question @Enxu, if the state regulation is merely an inconvenience to your faith then the Bible tells us we must obey and respect it. However, if the regulation were to order us to worship another god then clearly that Rule must be be disobeyed -
and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace. Daniel 3:11 NIV

The answer to my question is straightforward it doesn’t take much thought as to what true Christians would do, and it wasn’t directed at you.

It was directed at someone who claims to be a Christian but preaches radical obedience to human rulers at the expense of obedience/faithfulness to God. I posed the same question twice to the same person, but instead of an honest confession, I receive a damning statement falsely accusing me of twisting Scriptures (with possible penalties involved) when my point is simply that we ought to remain loyal to God and disobey any governments that institutes laws demanding that we deny Christ.

The very same person who showed such hostile attitude towards me have done so many times on this forum, even when I was seeking for consolation and crying out for help. Unlike you who at least asked for forgiveness for any unloving attitude, there was no repentance on his part, no love demonstrated other than a veneer of polite sounding words. It speaks to the kind of faith that is being held by that person, and that the goats are on these very forums posing as Christ’s followers.

 

[Enxu]

I think sometimes we really don't appreciate the freedoms that our lovely God has blessed us in the West with.

Some take it for granted and don't bother to vote at elections, others try to unpick or deny those freedoms by taking on a mantle of victimhood. They'll seize on an issue, break a rule or regulation or law and when they get punished then cry persecution, somehow feeling that they are in solidarity with our Christian brothers and sisters in countries like Chad, North Korea, Burkina Faso. Recent examples are hoteliers who've turned away gay couples, another refusing to take off a piece of jewellery in the shape of a cross and now disregarding covid regulations by opening church services.

These regulations apply equally to nightclubs, theatres, cinemas and concert venues so no, this is not persecution, this is the State imposing regulations to protect its citizens from a deadly virus. There are plenty of churches that circumvent these regulations by holding services via Zoom so yes, picking a fight with the State like this is contrary to the teaching of the apostles who genuinely feared for their lives as a result of actual persecution when they wrote their advice.

But to answer your question @Enxu, if the state regulation is merely an inconvenience to your faith then the Bible tells us we must obey and respect it. However, if the regulation were to order us to worship another god then clearly that Rule must be be disobeyed -
and that whoever does not fall down and worship will be thrown into a blazing furnace. Daniel 3:11 NIV

We can't claim to have any sort of solidarity or shared experience with those poor Christian brothers and sisters who are tortured horrifically in North Korea in order to extract from them the names of fellow believers or converts in Iran who are forced to re convert back to Islam and face execution if they don't.

But back to the topic at hand, the problem brought forth by the OP is something grave we need to be wary of. It is very evident to me that Satan is working subtly to drive Christians to ultimately deny Christ.

Satan is crafty enough to do it through a gradual process. Today, he is only using governments to limit some freedom of Christians to preach the Gospel. Once he gets Christians to give in this one little step, it only makes it easier for him to convince Christians to compromise a bit more on their faith and then a bit more. Tomorrow, Satan will ban bibles in Churches. Then the next day, it will be prohibiting Christians from praying in public. Before long, Christians will have gone to the point of completely forsaking their Lord because they failed to stop themselves from compromising little by little before it was too late.

Just on this forum alone, it’s obvious there are so called Christians (who are actually goats) ready to give in to the demands of governments under the inspiration of the devil. Today they will restrict themselves from preaching the Gospel as openly. Tomorrow, they will stop public prayers if that’s what the governments demand. How long before they start agreeing with the antichrist spirit and say Jesus is not the Christ but just a wise teacher or adhere to some other heresy that denies Jesus as coming in the flesh and His death and resurrection?

Wake up to the dangers we face now and start asking God to increase your faith so that you will stand with the truth of the Gospel and not submit to lies. The spirit of antichrist has already infested the hearts of many and they will deny Christ when the time of persecution comes because they want to retain their earthly comforts and escape from death for fearing men more than God, these apostates will not lay down their lives for Christ and thus will fail the test of faith and show themselves as false converts.

But Jesus said: whoever seeks to save his life will LOSE IT, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

 

[Enxu]

so yes, picking a fight with the State like this is contrary to the teaching of the apostles who genuinely feared for their lives as a result of actual persecution when they wrote their advice.

But to answer your question @Enxu, if the state regulation is merely an inconvenience to your faith then the Bible tells us we must obey and respect it.

I overlooked this part earlier but I don’t think the OP meant we are to pick fights with the state, and I don’t mean that either. But we do need to WATCH what is really happening, and not fall into one of the subtle traps of Satan who attempts to chip away at our faith bit by bit.

The question remains, how do you know for sure that the current regulations are just an inconvenience or a slow but gradual plan to wear away the faith of the saints? There needs to be prayer and watchfulness about this because Satan will not make it obvious that he is trying to lure Christians away from Christ. When he deceived Adam and Eve, he did it in a very convincing way that seemed like it was for the benefit of Adam and Eve to eat from the forbidden tree. The very same deception could be at work here under the veneer of “for the good of the public”.

 

[Trevor]

The answer to my question is straightforward it doesn’t take much thought as to what true Christians would do, and it wasn’t directed at you.

It was directed at someone who claims to be a Christian but preaches radical obedience to human rulers at the expense of obedience/faithfulness to God. I posed the same question twice to the same person, but instead of an honest confession, I receive a damning statement falsely accusing me of twisting Scriptures (with possible penalties involved) when my point is simply that we ought to remain loyal to God and disobey any governments that institutes laws demanding that we deny Christ.

The very same person who showed such hostile attitude towards me have done so many times on this forum, even when I was seeking for consolation and crying out for help. Unlike you who at least asked for forgiveness for any unloving attitude, there was no repentance on his part, no love demonstrated other than a veneer of polite sounding words. It speaks to the kind of faith that is being held by that person, and that the goats are on these very forums posing as Christ’s followers.

Goodness Enexu, your anger towards people who disagree with you is concerning, this is, after all a debate, and in a debate people disagree. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, maybe you should think twice before debating. a) The government didn't demand that anyone should deny Christ, they, possibly unadvisedly, added church buildings to the list of establishments that should lock down because of the coronavirus. many churches dealt with this by going on line, others decided to ignore the order to make a point, and have been fined. That is the prerogative of the church leaders. If they wish to take on the government, who, to expect other establishments to obey their edicts, have to come down hard on anyone who comes against them, whether the church or any other business, then they should expect repercussions. As for me showing hostile attitudes to you, I have, more often than not, answered your posts with scripture. Why you would wish me to apologise or repent for, lovingly, giving you scriptures appertaining to your requests for advice surprises me. You could, if you disagree with my advice, have just ignored it. Maybe you should ask yourself, why you find it impossible to accept people's advice who disagree with you without acting so angrily. I pray the Lord will bless you in this.

 

[Enxu]

I overlooked this part earlier but I don’t think the OP meant we are to pick fights with the state, and I don’t mean that either. But we do need to WATCH what is really happening, and not fall into one of the subtle traps of Satan who attempts to chip away at our faith bit by bit.

The question remains, how do you know for sure that the current regulations are just an inconvenience or a slow but gradual plan to wear away the faith of the saints? There needs to be prayer and watchfulness about this because Satan will not make it obvious that he is trying to lure Christians away from Christ. When he deceived Adam and Eve, he did it in a very convincing way that seemed like it was for the benefit of Adam and Eve to eat from the forbidden tree. The very same deception could be at work here under the veneer of “for the good of the public”.

You avoided answering a straightforward question about obeying governments to deny Christ twice, a question with a simple yes or no as answers. Instead, in an attempt to cover up a guilty conscience, you’ve accused me of trying to twist Scriptures without proof and now you claim that this kind of response geared at provoking others to anger was just a debate and disagreement from you. Sure sure, lol.

Even in this post of yours you attempt to paint me in an ugly way as an angry person who can’t accept disagreement. Maybe you should reflect on why I don’t respond in the same “angry” way towards Andyindauk who also disagreed with me?

The hypocrisy and hostile attitude you’ve demonstrated is evident to all and I’m not only not angry, I’m having a good laugh about it. God is certainly not fooled by hypocrites. Like I said, the conversation about this topic with you has ended. You may hold onto your opinions, I don’t mind one bit.

 

[Dave M]

the question is will you obey the gonvermen or God when they out law church, or when they tell you to take the mark??

what I see is a direct attack on the church, at first I agreed we should do what the gonv said. But after I saw them single out the church, my stance has changed

 

[Enxu]

the question is will you obey the gonvermen or God when they out law church, or when they tell you to take the mark??

what I see is a direct attack on the church, at first I agreed we should do what the gonv said. But after I saw them single out the church, my stance has changed

My take on this is that the pandemic has become a valid excuse for Satan to use governments to wear down the saints. It could very well be a gradual process of destroying the faith of many by asking Christians to give up their faith bit by bit through small steps of compromises that don’t even look like attacks on the faith. Be watchful and pray, many will not pass the test of faith as prophesied.

 

[Trevor]

You avoided answering a straightforward question about obeying governments to deny Christ twice, a question with a simple yes or no as answers. Instead, in an attempt to cover up a guilty conscience, you’ve accused me of trying to twist Scriptures without proof and now you claim that this kind of response geared at provoking others to anger was just a debate and disagreement from you. Sure sure, lol.

Even in this post of yours you attempt to paint me in an ugly way as an angry person who can’t accept disagreement. Maybe you should reflect on why I don’t respond in the same “angry” way towards Andyindauk who also disagreed with me?

The hypocrisy and hostile attitude you’ve demonstrated is evident to all and I’m not only not angry, I’m having a good laugh about it. God is certainly not fooled by hypocrites. Like I said, the conversation about this topic with you has ended. You may hold onto your opinions, I don’t mind one bit.

I'm pleased your not upset, bless you.

 

[Shutterbug]

I read the story behind the verse quoted in Acts 5. It wasn't the Government who had the apostles arrested, but the priests of the synagogue. The priests were still keeping the old ways of Mosaic Law and the preaching of Jesus prevailed against it, as it should. However, they weren't willing to change and used the authorities to try stop it. How this verse fits in with an anti-Government rant baffles me.

We have the same situation in Canada in that large assemblies in close proximity are banned. The churches as much as possible are using technology to work around it in much the same you folks use Talk Jesus. Yet, some folks consider the ban of large gatherings a threat to their worship of God when it is not. The authorities are trying to protect you as well as others while keeping a reasonable degree of freedom so you can still shop, work, and enjoy a walk around the neighbourhood with your significant other, kids, or dog. If you can't figure that out, you have bigger problems to sort out.

 

[Trevor]

the question is will you obey the gonvermen or God when they out law church, or when they tell you to take the mark??

what I see is a direct attack on the church, at first I agreed we should do what the gonv said. But after I saw them single out the church, my stance has changed

Hi Dave, We have a family church who meet in our home, so to outlaw our church, they'd have to outlaw families. We also have fellowship with Christian friends who visit us. We live in a small town where everybody knows our faith, even the denominational church goers who often invite me to play music. As to the mark, suffice it to say, when I find out for certain what form it will take, I will refuse to take it. Many years ago, when I first became a street musician, I had an epiphany and, even though at the time I didn't follow a faith, I knew, because of the epiphany, that street music was what I had to do. Since becoming a Christian, street music has enabled me to open many a conversation where I could explain my faith, and the Spirit has, on many occasions, blessed these moments. I am hoping that, if I have to forgo the security of a stable home because of refusing the mark and take to the road, street music will prove to be a blessing.

 

[Trevor]

If the law of the land says Jesus is not the Christ and you are to believe in Allah, are you going to obey that?

You've accused me of not answering this question, so I will answer it. The answer is no, and to ask this question of a Christian, is outrageous, ignorant and stupid, not to mention insulting.

 

[Enxu]

I read the story behind the verse quoted in Acts 5. It wasn't the Government who had the apostles arrested, but the priests of the synagogue. The priests were still keeping the old ways of Mosaic Law and the preaching of Jesus prevailed against it, as it should. However, they weren't willing to change and used the authorities to try stop it. How this verse fits in with an anti-Government rant baffles me.

We have the same situation in Canada in that large assemblies in close proximity are banned. The churches as much as possible are using technology to work around it in much the same you folks use Talk Jesus. Yet, some folks consider the ban of large gatherings a threat to their worship of God when it is not. The authorities are trying to protect you as well as others while keeping a reasonable degree of freedom so you can still shop, work, and enjoy a walk around the neighbourhood with your significant other, kids, or dog. If you can't figure that out, you have bigger problems to sort out.

The Jews were governed by the Romans, but in their nation at that time their spiritual rulers were in fact the priests and Pharisees, a government of sort.

You lack spiritual discernment like much of the lukewarm church. Just because restricting church practices under a pandemic seem rational now does not mean there isn’t a spiritual deception going on. Don’t forget that this society rationalized a lot of things such as premarital sex, feminism and now homosexuality under the guise of tolerance, progression and love. To say these things aren’t the work of Satan is to be wilfully ignorant to the subtlety of demonic influence on mankind.

That said, I am not saying Christians should go on the street and start a riot, pick a fight or whatnot. We are to address the government in a respectful way just as commanded, but we must be firm in our stance on faith and righteousness, and be ever watchful and prayerful so we don’t get swept away by the flood of compromise.

 

[Dave M]

the flue here in america killed about 22,000 people

The virus has killed 9,000

this is not a pandemic

the NEw world order is using this to destroy america by getting us to shut our economy down in the name of safety, they have to destroy our economy so they can rebuild it the way they want.

t

 

[Andyindauk]

the question is will you obey the gonvermen or God when they out law church, or when they tell you to take the mark??

what I see is a direct attack on the church, at first I agreed we should do what the gonv said. But after I saw them single out the church, my stance has changed

Dave, churches aren't outlawed, in the UK churches can now open subject to Covid-19 restrictions, masks, distancing etc. but even during the height of the pandemic when churches weren't allowed to open to physical congregations, they still weren't outlawed, many holding services online and nobody's asked me to take any mark so I think some can see anti-Christs under the bed. It's governments all over the world, not just the USA, taking steps and measures to stop the spread of a virulent and aggressive virus. When you say churches singled out, you're overlooking sports venues, concert and music venues, night clubs and others that are still closed and dentists, massage, tattooists, pubs, restaurants and others that were temporarily closed.

I visited a small village today in Derbyshire UK called Eyam. If you're ever in the UK and you like your history this is a fascinating visit. Back in the seventeenth century the black death (plague) was rampant in southern England whereas the north was largely unaffected. However a delivery of a consignment of clothing came infected by fleas that started the spread of this disease in the village. The parish vicar Rev. William Mompesson took charge and put the village in quarantine for 14 months, interestingly, holding church services in the open air, practising social distancing. This was before scientists knew anything about germs and viruses. The estimated death rate was between 33 - 50% of the village. There are still cottages with the list of those who died of the disease displayed. Click The village of the damned The guy was a hero and doubtless saved tens of thousands of lives.

Oh if only the Church could take a lead role in helping, advising, reassuring and witnessing to those who worry about this infection, rather than being in denial and running around spreading it.

 

[Trevor]

the flue here in america killed about 22,000 people

The virus has killed 9,000

this is not a pandemic

the NEw world order is using this to destroy america by getting us to shut our economy down in the name of safety, they have to destroy our economy so they can rebuild it the way they want.

t

I believe Dave, the authorities are seeing how far they can push for future reference. At the moment they have most of the people dancing to their tune. However you are right, it's an illusion.

 

[Brad Huber]

Dave, churches aren't outlawed, in the UK churches can now open subject to Covid-19 restrictions, masks, distancing etc. but even during the height of the pandemic when churches weren't allowed to open to physical congregations, they still weren't outlawed, many holding services online and nobody's asked me to take any mark so I think some can see anti-Christs under the bed. It's governments all over the world, not just the USA, taking steps and measures to stop the spread of a virulent and aggressive virus. When you say churches singled out, you're overlooking sports venues, concert and music venues, night clubs and others that are still closed and dentists, massage, tattooists, pubs, restaurants and others that were temporarily closed.

I visited a small village today in Derbyshire UK called Eyam. If you're ever in the UK and you like your history this is a fascinating visit. Back in the seventeenth century the black death (plague) was rampant in southern England whereas the north was largely unaffected. However a delivery of a consignment of clothing came infected by fleas that started the spread of this disease in the village. The parish vicar Rev. William Mompesson took charge and put the village in quarantine for 14 months, interestingly, holding church services in the open air, practising social distancing. This was before scientists knew anything about germs and viruses. The estimated death rate was between 33 - 50% of the village. There are still cottages with the list of those who died of the disease displayed. Click The village of the damned The guy was a hero and doubtless saved tens of thousands of lives.

Oh if only the Church could take a lead role in helping, advising, reassuring and witnessing to those who worry about this infection, rather than being in denial and running around spreading it.

It varies state to state, but some states dont allow any church attendance, even though they allow ppl to congregate at walmart, home depot, liqueur stores, target, and of course in mobs bent on destruction. How is it that you would be any safer there? Its simply liberal governors are taking delight in being little fiefdoms that push any agenda they like in the name of "safety".

 

[Shutterbug]

The Jews were governed by the Romans, but in their nation at that time their spiritual rulers were in fact the priests and Pharisees, a government of sort.

You lack spiritual discernment like much of the lukewarm church. Just because restricting church practices under a pandemic seem rational now does not mean there isn’t a spiritual deception going on. Don’t forget that this society rationalized a lot of things such as premarital sex, feminism and now homosexuality under the guise of tolerance, progression and love. To say these things aren’t the work of Satan is to be wilfully ignorant to the subtlety of demonic influence on mankind.

That said, I am not saying Christians should go on the street and start a riot, pick a fight or whatnot. We are to address the government in a respectful way just as commanded, but we must be firm in our stance on faith and righteousness, and be ever watchful and prayerful so we don’t get swept away by the flood of compromise.

Our parents are a government of sorts as it's their task to regulate our behaviour until we're on our own. All of the things this society is famous for has been gong on for thousands of years according to my Bible. Are your church leaders getting you arrested for worship reasons they fundamentally disagree with? Is that what this thread is really about? Or, is it about a paranoia of perceived loss of freedom and at a loss in dealing with it? As I see it, no one has stopped anyone from worshiping, yet.

Until my church re-opens, the pastor does an online service, as other pastors have done. They work around the issue and within the imposed frame work without blame or complaint. They are not blind to the fact that this could be the tip of the iceberg of worse things to come. Until then, they will continue to preach with the resources they have trusting God to lead them. Cheers

 

[Brad Huber]

The sheep (the fearful believers) have gone astray (turned away from God's guidance to peoples guidance), but will they hear the Sheppard's voice when He calls, "Come my children, come.", or will they only hear the voice of the wolves and flee wherever they will, even into more danger.

 

[Hekuran]

Our parents are a government of sorts as it's their task to regulate our behaviour until we're on our own. All of the things this society is famous for has been gong on for thousands of years according to my Bible. Are your church leaders getting you arrested for worship reasons they fundamentally disagree with? Is that what this thread is really about? Or, is it about a paranoia of perceived loss of freedom and at a loss in dealing with it? As I see it, no one has stopped anyone from worshiping, yet.

Until my church re-opens, the pastor does an online service, as other pastors have done. They work around the issue and within the imposed frame work without blame or complaint. They are not blind to the fact that this could be the tip of the iceberg of worse things to come. Until then, they will continue to preach with the resources they have trusting God to lead them. Cheers

Very similar in my church. We are looking forward to meeting again in person at the beginning of next month. The restrictions have been eased a while ago, but the pastor and elders have taken a cautious approach, not wanting to leave anybody behind, and being mindful of the needs of the older and more vulnerable members.

I had a phone conversation with the pastor two nights ago, and in talking it through it's clear that there aren't any options that don't have a very serious downside. Even when we get together it will be socially distanced and with no congregational singing.

I understand that churches are in different situations and may make different choices. But these are not easy decisions and we shouldn't pretend that they are. Pray for wisdom for those that have to find a way through this.

 

[B-A-C]

Pray for wisdom for those that have to find a way through this.

There are a great many of us that feel we have already had this prayer answered.

Matt 11:19; The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

Jesus did things the "religious establishment" didn't approve of. Yet.. "wisdom is vindicated by her deeds".

In the last 60 days I've attended a few Christian rally's and marches. Hugged and shook hands with easily over 100 people. One rally had over 7,000 people, the other had over 2,500 people.
Our church has been regularly for a couple of months now. We also have home study groups that have been meeting in person for some now. No one has worn a mask.

Out of all those thousands of people, no one has died from Covid, if anyone has been sick from it, no one has reported it.
.. indeed.. "wisdom is vindicated..."