Universalism - a discussion

[KingJ]

A true Christian doesn't believe in Universalism. It's a spit in Jesus' face.

This is not true. A true Christian would rather accept universalism over eternal torture akin to being placed in a brazen bull. God is good not evil.

Universalism does not mock Jesus. His death would be for forgiveness from suffering to those who repent of their sins and accept Him. Whilst those who don't, will endure a time of punishment according to their sin committed.

 

[KingJ]

Are you humble?

Not all the time, certainly not!!

A human body goes through phases of pride and humility. We battle with the flesh. But we are not sold out to a love of what is evil and harden our hearts to the Holy Spirit.

What it takes to become a Christian is clearly explained here - What is a Christian and how do you become one?

 

[KingJ]

No doubt that many have not been blessed with the gift of truth and faith as have we. However, it is clear to me that God will, in his own time, allow ALL to follow him, albeit for some that won't happen for them while they are living on Earth.

It's a nice thought but it does not survive scrutiny.

Scripture says that the devil has been sinning since the beginning, what makes you think anyone can stop him from being evil? You would need to remove free will from the wicked, that would be evil.

There are many people that will simply never truly want to be better. They may go through phases of being good, but at their core, they are evil and always will be. You cannot ever trust these people with something like "kittens" in heaven. God has to separate them.

The reality shock for many is going to be the mercy that God shows the wicked in hell. I always think of how God described a few terrifying truths about Earth to Adam and Eve, yet Earth is still not 'that bad'.

 

[Rhema]

My best guess is that God allows bad things to happen to us in order for us to learn and grow closer to him.

Thank you. I've heard that sentiment preached quite often, but that's not what Jesus told his disciples -

Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. And He said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing.​

(John 9:1-7 NKJV)

The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. ​

(Matthew 11:5 NKJV)

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.​

(John 14:12 NKJV)

God knew Adam and Eve would fail and it was all a part of his plan.

How could Murder be a part of God's plan?

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.​

(John 8:44 NKJV)

The devil murdered Adam and Eve from the beginning, bringing death, disease and pain to them. A loving God wouldn't have any part of that.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Ooh Rhema, long day?

I created this thread as a favor to Marston, so he could discuss Universalism.

GET A CLUE.

 

[Marston]

Not all the time, certainly not!!

A human body goes through phases of pride and humility. We battle with the flesh. But we are not sold out to a love of what is evil and harden our hearts to the Holy Spirit.

What it takes to become a Christian is clearly explained here - What is a Christian and how do you become one?

I am in constant battle with my own, silly, ego.

 

[Marston]

loving God wouldn't have any part of that.

I believe that God is in control always. I don't believe that God inflicts suffering but he does allow it to occur as evidenced by Job and many others in the Bible as well as what we see all around us every day.

 

[Marston]

You would need to remove free will from the wicked, that would be evil.

I don't believe that we actually have "free will". I believe that we are all, from one degree to another, slaves to sin.

John 8:34-36​

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

 

[Marston]

There is no point in Hell if everyone "eventually goes to Heaven."
Sending all who "didn't make the cut" to a non-existent but will entertain it does,
Purgatory until they meet some list that no one knows about to get out.

A true Christian doesn't believe in Universalism. It's a spit in Jesus' face.

Maybe you misunderstand.

 

[Marston]

Does God want ALL people to be saved from forever death & punishment? Yes, the Bible says so.

Does God get what God wants? Yes, the Bible says so.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

 

[KingJ]

I don't believe that we actually have "free will". I believe that we are all, from one degree to another, slaves to sin.

John 8:34-36​

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

The verse you quoted explains that if we are set free by Jesus, we are no longer slaves to sin.

If all were still slaves to sin, it would still be a non-issue. The issue has always been whether or not you hate or love your sin.

Consider Hades before Jesus. Jesus explains in Luke 16:19-31 that there was a separation of sinner and sinner.

 

[Marston]

There is MUCH more biblical support for universal reconciling. But for now, please answer the following two questions.

Does God want ALL people to be saved from forever death and punishment?

Does God get what God wants?

 

[KingJ]

There is MUCH more biblical support for universal reconciling. But for now, please answer the following two questions.

I like toying with the idea. I wish it were true. There is nothing wrong in believing it.

I suppose if you counted every verse of God being just, good and righteous as support, perhaps you could be right .

Does God want ALL people to be saved from forever death and punishment?

Yes

Does God get what God wants?

No

 

[MedicBravo]

This is not true. A true Christian would rather accept universalism over eternal torture akin to being placed in a brazen bull. God is good not evil.

Universalism does not mock Jesus. His death would be for forgiveness from suffering to those who repent of their sins and accept Him. Whilst those who don't, will endure a time of punishment according to their sin committed.

That's where you're wrong.
God justice and punishment IS good.
Jesus died once not multiple times. Any mention of Hell is irrelevant by moronic Universalsim and makes the entire Bible and God hypocritical.
You can't give ANY verse(s) in context. It's a lost belief.
Morals who think they know better than God are heretics and blasphemers.

In fact, Revelation proves Universalism wrong.

 

[MedicBravo]

Maybe you misunderstand.

Your opinion isn't a fact.
If Universalism was true then there'd be many verses to back it. There aren't.

 

[MedicBravo]

Universalists:
Despite knowing enough about the immortal God and realizing that they ultimately deserve death, they still reject him (Rom 1:18-23; 32). They disobey the gospel (1 Pet 4:17; 2 Thess 1:8; Rom 10:16), and so fail to respond obediently in repentance and faith to the knowledge of God and his offer of salvation (Acts 6:7; Rom 1:5; 16:26). They love sin rather than goodness, themselves rather than God, and are “disqualified regarding the faith” (John 3:20; 2 Tim 3:2-8).

Argument from the defeat of God’s last remaining enemy in 1 Corinthians 15:26​

This argument states that after all of God’s enemies are defeated with the defeat of the last enemy, death, leading to God becoming “all in all” over a redeemed creation, no enemies can still exist as such—including human “enemies of the cross” (Phil 3:18)—nor can there be any post-defeat defeat of death in their case anyway. Universalism is ruled out because the Bible links the timing and mode of this defeat of death to the immortalizing resurrection of believers.

Argument from the rationale for the limited delay of Judgment Day in 2 Peter 3:9​

This argument states that since the rationale given in 2 Peter 3:9 is that God is being patient by delaying the day of judgment, “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance,” this delay expires when judgment day occurs, along with the related opportunity for repentance, thus ruling out universalism.

Argument from the “removal” of what cannot “remain” in Hebrews 12:27​

This argument states that a crisis of judgment between the present age and the coming age results, according to Hebrews 12:27, in the “removal” of everything that does not belong to the eternal “kingdom that cannot be shaken,” “in order that” everything that does belong “may remain.” Among human beings, only believers belong to the unshakable kingdom; hence, all others are excluded from the age to come, and universalism is ruled out.

If it were a thing, then why not make Purgatory a place and send all who rejected God there?
Without Hell, there is no fear of punishment of "everyone goes and gets their participation trophy."
Typical Leftoid way of thinking.
If any "Christian" thinks this is a think, they're wholly ignorant of God and the Bible in truth.

 

[KingJ]

That's where you're wrong.
God justice and punishment IS good.

Medic, universalism does not teach no punishment.

You believe eternal torture like placing someone in a brazen bull is a good thing? Imagine that. It is because of this ridiculous unscriptural kind of teaching on God's ''''''holiness and justice'''''''' that an evil person will agree with, that we have people holding onto something like universalism.

Jesus died once not multiple times. Any mention of Hell is irrelevant by moronic Universalsim and makes the entire Bible and God hypocritical.

What has Jesus dying multiple times got to do with anything?

You can't give ANY verse(s) in context. It's a lost belief.

God is good Psalm 136:1 and just Job 34:12 = universalism.

Imagine thinking eternal torture akin to placing someone in a brazen bull is justice.

Morals who think they know better than God are heretics and blasphemers.

Morals who completely and utterly misrepresent God as someone who should sit a top a list of the most evil beings to ever live are heretics and blasphemers. Every prophet that knew God better than you or I said He is good, loving, merciful, kind, just and righteous.

Now we come along and teach ''oh, eternal torture is holiness'' LMAO

In fact, Revelation proves Universalism wrong.

Any verse mentioning eternal punishment proves it wrong. Please see my post # 3 here.

 

[Marston]

I like toying with the idea. I wish it were true. There is nothing wrong in believing it.

I suppose if you counted every verse of God being just, good and righteous as support, perhaps you could be right .



Yes



No

So you reject the scriptures that I provided. OK. If you reject those then you'll likely reject the others too and so there seems no point in sharing more. Thanks for your response.

 

[Marston]

Your opinion isn't a fact.
If Universalism was true then there'd be many verses to back it. There aren't.

There are indeed and I just provided some, but I won't bother to post additional scriptures. If @Rhema wants to discuss further I'm happy to do so privately. Rhema, just send me a PM if you're interested in doing so as I am done with this thread.