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Were they right?

Hi Brakelite. I had a read through the first few pages. The AntiChrist denies the incarnation of Christ in the flesh.
Hi James. There is another sense to the meaning of 'flesh', that is the carnal nature. Now think about the teachings of the RCC in relation to the birth of Christ and whose nature He inherits...is it through an "immaculate" Mary or is it of the seed and nature of Adam?
He will declare himself to be God (in this sense , will he be religious).
There are numerous quotes that I cited within the thread from the RCC leadership proclaiming the pope as an equal to God on earth, in fact in some cases above God through a presumed power to usurp God's authority, both in the church and in the secular world.
He will sit in the temple. This does not seem to fit Roman Catholicism which does not deny the incarnation and they have no reason to sit in the Temple in Jerusalem, they sit in the Vatican.
As iscussed in the other thread, there are more than just one rendering or understanding of the concept of 'temple'. The passage that refers to the antichrist's sitting in the temple proclaiming to be God does not necassarily mean a physical building...to my mind it is far more reasonable, when compared to other scriptures concerning him, that the antichrist sits in the 'church' corporate, claiming to be a legitimate part of the body of Christ, yet also claiming the prerogatives of God.
I wrote and explained this quite extensively in the the thread and gave many quotes from RCC sources in verification.
For this reason i believe the anti-christ to be an atheist, a former Jew or former Islamic.
The little horn of Daniel 7 reveals at least 10 specific characteristics of the antichrist. Every single on of them fits the RCC. Some examples:
  • Grew out of the pagan Rome.
  • Defeated three other kingdoms.
  • Has sought to or attempted to changes times...
  • ...and laws (not an unusual thing you would think; every power changes laws...but the RCC has changed God's laws...a completely different kettle of fish).
  • Persecuted the saints, even made war against them. Islam could never match the evils that the RCC has brought upon God's people throughout the length and breadth of her time and rule over Europe during the dark ages in order to protect and extend her power. Let alone the wars recently in which she has taken active part. eg both world wars and Vietnam. It is estimated that in the 1200 odd years of the dark ages (from the 6th century to the 18th) the RCC has been directly responsible for the deaths of at least 50 and some say up to 100 million people.
I believe the anti-christ will be a "Jew" by being the false Jewish Messiah, leading many to believe he is God. The false Jewish Messiah will be an atheist from a secular country which removes the presence of Islam, facilitates the rebuilding of the temple on the temple mount, and then runs the world from this central location (the UN). The anti-christ will suppress all religions, Catholic, Islam, etc
This kind of interpretation has been around for so long, has had so much publicity in books, films, magazines etc. how could anyone possibly be fooled or deceived by it if it eventuates? Yet the Bible says that almost the whole world will fall victim to the antichrist's deceptions. Already the RCC is well on the way to accomplishing this, all the worlds politicians flock to the popes feet to kiss and listen to his "mouth speaking great things" ; indeed already "all the world wonders after the beast".
I have often said James, that the Christian world is so busy searching the horizon for an enemy to appear with guns blazing targeting the church, that they miss the friendly neighborhood "pal" about to pounce on them from behind.
 
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Have to disagree with you Rodd concerning the reformers' understanding of prophecy. Though it was certainly less than our own, yet it wasn't for the sake of accuracy, but rather that history hadn't developed as fully then as it has now. They in fact understood history and how it relates to prophecy far better than the majority of Christendom today. They knew who the antichrist was/is. They weren't ignorant or mistaken about that.

When i get the time i will go through this whole thread brakelite.
The Pope is Satan ? each one ? or one or is it some fall short in Christ.
I have come across this with most so called R Catholics saying the Pope is Satan but to me they come across as just idiots who idolise Mary and are superstitious and do not know the Bible well at all etc etc.
If a R Catholic rejects the position of the Pope, that person is not a Catholic at all but just a idiot and a fool.
The people in the R Catholic Church takes it's guidance from it's head and if it does not then they are the problem and we see this all through history of fools going off the line causing problems then the same idiots run around blaming the popes.
The Prot reformers were Devils and fools who were out for what they could get and lead by people who had their own ambitions. sure some of the things they said were true as to the RCC and if want go see the RCC apologetics for your self.
 
When i get the time i will go through this whole thread brakelite.
The Pope is Satan ? each one ? or one or is it some fall short in Christ.
I have come across this with most so called R Catholics saying the Pope is Satan but to me they come across as just idiots who idolise Mary and are superstitious and do not know the Bible well at all etc etc.
If a R Catholic rejects the position of the Pope, that person is not a Catholic at all but just a idiot and a fool.
The people in the R Catholic Church takes it's guidance from it's head and if it does not then they are the problem and we see this all through history of fools going off the line causing problems then the same idiots run around blaming the popes.
The Prot reformers were Devils and fools who were out for what they could get and lead by people who had their own ambitions. sure some of the things they said were true as to the RCC and if want go see the RCC apologetics for your self.

The problem with the RCC was that they thought they were exclusive, and that justification came by way of faith but also their particular sacramental rights and other works of atonement.
This idea flies in the face of the Pauline epistles that claim justification is a gratuitous work of the Holy Spirit engendering a dynamic faith which works justice, mercy and love.
Any other is not the means by which God justifies, for the RCC to demand total obedience to it's ordinances is an apostasy, and as a human institution has no right to bind the consciences of men.

That's why you've got a pagan (satanic) obelisk in the middle of St Peters Square an actual from the Centre of Worship in Egypt Luxor. Bet you didn't know the Chief Pagan Priest in Pergamum was called the pontiff.
Think about it,....now they occupy the Vatican!...The worship of Mary is just a cover of the worship of Semiramis the goddesss wife of Nimrod, and the baby son Tammuz.

Before you criticise the reformers understand that these great men died to preserve the Gospel and that these others that you unwittingly support are far from what you think they are,
try doing some investigation into the RCC, there's way to much smoke for there not to be a fire!
 
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The problem with the RCC was that they thought they were exclusive, and that justification came by way of faith but also their particular sacramental rights and other works of atonement.
This idea flies in the face of the Pauline epistles that claim justification is a gratuitous work of the Holy Spirit engendering a dynamic faith which works justice, mercy and love.
Any other is not the means by which God justifies, for the RCC to demand total obedience to it's ordinances is an apostasy, and as a human institution has no right to bind the consciences of men.

That's why you've got a pagan (satanic) obelisk in the middle of St Peters Square an actual from the Centre of Worship in Egypt Luxor. Bet you didn't know the Chief Pagan Priest in Pergamum was called the pontiff.
Think about it,....now they occupy the Vatican!...The worship of Mary is just a cover of the worship of Semiramis the goddesss wife of Nimrod, and the baby son Tammuz.

Before you criticise the reformers understand that these great men died to preserve the Gospel and that these others that you unwittingly support are far from what you think they are,
try doing some investigation into the RCC, there's way to much smoke for there not to be a fire!

I see nothing wrong with what you have just said.
Satan is always at work in all denominations that i can see.
I hate that filthy obelisk to.
The worship of Mary as you say ? is not true to what the RCC says it is, but i have to wonder about some RC what they are doing with their Mary worship as they come across as idiots to me, but the doctrines of the RCC does not support what they do.
WHO IS LEADING THE WORLD ASTRAY TODAY the Pope i don't think so. just look at the PC nazis at you schools and in politics and on TV if that's not filth, what is.
I have look into the RCC but i will not join any that hide abominable or promote the sexually immoral.
For what i can see the Devil is not in the Popes so much but in them who profess to be Christians but are not, or say Christ does not exist.
 
The thread I entitled "were they right"? is in reference to the reformers' claims that the papacy, as an institiution, and the popes as the titlular heads of that institiution is the antichrist of scripture. The thread was begun as an investigation as to whether their claims as such had any foundation either in history, or in prophecy. Why I started it is because all the reformers agreed on this one very important aspect of religious teaching, while disagreeing on most others. After all, they should know, as many of them were ex prioests themselves, some taught at some of the most prestigious Catholic universities in Europe. They were highly educated, knew several languages, and suddenly met Jesus. Coming out of the darkness of papal error was a slow and painful process. Some lessons and erroneous teachings took a long time to shed. The Christian church today is still battling over some of these errors, the debate continuing in forums such as this. But the Antichrist issue is an interesting one. The reformers all agreed on that, yet today, since the counter-reformation and the introduction of futurism by the Catholic Jesuits in the 17th century, the fingers have started pointing away from Rome into the unkown future. Seems to me that the Roman defensive patterns are winning. Almost everyone today have bought the dummy and going for the man without the ball.
 
Excellent work brakelite,

I can see you have put a lot of time and study into your understanding in which I also agree. It also appears to me that the gospel in itself will expose all that is false. Our allegence belongs only to Christ and our salvation only is in Christ, but the pope takes the adoration of 1.2 billion catholics and dosen't mind being worshipped by them. The life style of the pope (as in all popes) is in great contrast to the life of Jesus who was not of this world who did not clothe Himself with the riches of this world, but the pope does, that alone should be offensive to all christians who know better, and isn't he also in the spirit of Nebuchadnezzar who wanted the worship of the people of Babylon? After his dream he built a giant statue of himself to be worshipped by the people so that they were actually worshipping him. Are people having a difficult time seeing the contrast between Christ and the pope, and the similarities between the pope and Nebuchadnezzar?

There is a tape out by James Arribito, and LLT Productions, called 666 and the Mark. In this tape James Arribito shows the origin of the number 666 and how it has been carried down through the ages of pagan Idolatry. Interesting tape and very informative.
 
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I see nothing wrong with what you have just said.
Satan is always at work in all denominations that i can see.
I hate that filthy obelisk to.
The worship of Mary as you say ? is not true to what the RCC says it is, but i have to wonder about some RC what they are doing with their Mary worship as they come across as idiots to me, but the doctrines of the RCC does not support what they do.
WHO IS LEADING THE WORLD ASTRAY TODAY the Pope i don't think so. just look at the PC nazis at you schools and in politics and on TV if that's not filth, what is.
I have look into the RCC but i will not join any that hide abominable or promote the sexually immoral.
For what i can see the Devil is not in the Popes so much but in them who profess to be Christians but are not, or say Christ does not exist.

Definitely not trying to put you down Puddleglum just trying to make you aware of that institution and where it fits as The Great Harlot of Revelation, the basic catholic person has no idea that the so called Christianity they follow will not save them, in fact it will damn them.

As for the Pope, or should I call him by his auspicious title,.."Holy Father", it makes me cringe just typing that, knowing that that false Christian Institution titles your pope as such,..man! "has he now fear of God,".... usurping the title of the only Almighty God!!!!
And you don't think he's capable of presenting false doctrines!... well, just have a good think about that title and that should be enough.

And those Pagan Obelisks, I know there's one in Washington, London (Cleopatra's needle) one in Paris and another in the Vatican. They go back even further than Nebuchadnezzar's to the original at Babel.
Because of it's presence I believe the elite leaders of the RCC to be Zoroastrians worshipers of the sky Gods or Gods of the Cosmos, in other words the fallen angels and Lucifer.... Scripture says this Harlot leads the world astray.

These people follow the ancient world Occult religion of Sumer, and their shrines are in the places of their authority and power.
If you delve into the dark issues of that church there can be no other conclusion what it really represents.

I would like to discuss further but haven't the time right now, thanks for writing.
 
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Definitely not trying to put you down Puddleglum just trying to make you aware of that institution and where it fits as The Great Harlot of Revelation, the basic catholic person has no idea that the so called Christianity they follow will not save them, in fact it will damn them.

As for the Pope, or should I call him by his auspicious title,.."Holy Father", it makes me cringe just typing that, knowing that that false Christian Institution titles your pope as such,..man! "has he now fear of God,".... usurping the title of the only Almighty God!!!!
And you don't think he's capable of presenting false doctrines!... well, just have a good think about that title and that should be enough.

And those Pagan Obelisks, I know there's one in Washington, London (Cleopatra's needle) one in Paris and another in the Vatican. They go back even further than Nebuchadnezzar's to the original at Babel.
Because of it's presence I believe the elite leaders of the RCC to be Zoroastrians worshipers of the sky Gods or Gods of the Cosmos, in other words the fallen angels and Lucifer.... Scripture says this Harlot leads the world astray.

These people follow the ancient world Occult religion of Sumer, and their shrines are in the places of their authority and power.
If you delve into the dark issues of that church there can be no other conclusion what it really represents.

I would like to discuss further but haven't the time right now, thanks for writing.

I think a lot of slandering rubbish is tossed at the Pope or Popes and it's just pathetic really.
For one the Pope does not claim to be Christ and if any say that he does that is 'slander' = the work of Satan.
A Christian should always be careful not to be a slanderer and i have a mate that claims to be a Christian but when i refer to some things he says as being just slander, he just does not see the gravity of the charge at all and just keeps on and on with rubbish. i say do you know who Satan is ? he is a slanderer ! for crying out loud. and i say why don't you go and seek what the RCC teachers, then you may have a more informed position on the mater. but no he will not bother, but just blindly follow his own guru 'Pope' a uneducated slandering narrow minded dolt in my opinion.
The Antichrist has no power unless people follow him. most so called Catholics do not follow the Pope at all in my opinion from what i have come across, and they are so ignorant that it amazes me no end. and the prots are so full of slander that they are a joke.
I was a protestant and looked into the RCC teachings, because i hated them so much and myself being a Hebrew as well did not cast a light on them very well indeed. so i thought i will catch these bastards out and expose them for what they are, but it blew me away to find out that it was my protestant mob that were so foolish and so full of Slander it was just sickening.
Now to be truthful to myself i will not swallow slander from anyone.
And i reject the RCC on it's covering up poofters and child molesters etc etc.
Today's world is going to the dogs because the fact is Christians must be fruitful and how can one be fruitful if you slander and lie around in filth.
 
Hi James. There is another sense to the meaning of 'flesh', that is the carnal nature. Now think about the teachings of the RCC in relation to the birth of Christ and whose nature He inherits...is it through an "immaculate" Mary or is it of the seed and nature of Adam?

HI brakelite, I find this a very interesting topic of discussion, thankyou for engaging. On this point I believe the context of "flesh" in 1 John is Christ's actual body of flesh and blood, which numerous sects and cults denied, gnostics etc, and does not refer to 'carnal nature'. Furthermore, I cannot see that misunderstanding the transfer of natures from parent to child is as serious as denying Christ coming in the flesh.


There are numerous quotes that I cited within the thread from the RCC leadership proclaiming the pope as an equal to God on earth, in fact in some cases above God through a presumed power to usurp God's authority, both in the church and in the secular world.

But what is the context? It is not in denial of God in Heaven. It is saying that they are God's representative (vicar) on Earth.
In fact every saint is "God's representative on Earth". God lives within you, and you are on the earth, so it is God on Earth, according to the doctrine of theosis or divinization.

This would be along the same lines as when the apostle said:
Acts 5:4 "You have not lied to men but to God.”

As iscussed in the other thread, there are more than just one rendering or understanding of the concept of 'temple'. The passage that refers to the antichrist's sitting in the temple proclaiming to be God does not necassarily mean a physical building...to my mind it is far more reasonable, when compared to other scriptures concerning him, that the antichrist sits in the 'church' corporate, claiming to be a legitimate part of the body of Christ, yet also claiming the prerogatives of God.
I wrote and explained this quite extensively in the the thread and gave many quotes from RCC sources in verification.

Temple has various meanings but in this case I think physical building in Jerusalem is the more natural interpretation and the corporate church is a pure entity in which the gates of hell do not prevail, let alone sit in the midst of it.

The little horn of Daniel 7 reveals at least 10 specific characteristics of the antichrist. Every single on of them fits the RCC. Some examples:
Grew out of the pagan Rome.
Defeated three other kingdoms.
Has sought to or attempted to changes times...
...and laws (not an unusual thing you would think; every power changes laws...but the RCC has changed God's laws...a completely different kettle of fish).
Persecuted the saints, even made war against them. Islam could never match the evils that the RCC has brought upon God's people throughout the length and breadth of her time and rule over Europe during the dark ages in order to protect and extend her power. Let alone the wars recently in which she has taken active part. eg both world wars and Vietnam. It is estimated that in the 1200 odd years of the dark ages (from the 6th century to the 18th) the RCC has been directly responsible for the deaths of at least 50 and some say up to 100 million people.

It's easy to make these sorts of generalized claims without understanding the times in which people lived. I think it would be hard to find any religion which has not persecuted others.
To be fair, don't forget to count all the deaths that Protestantism has caused, including the church of England killing innocent Catholics, and it was a Methodist president, not the Pope, who commanded Iraq to be invaded on false presences and who claimed "God told him to".


This kind of interpretation has been around for so long, has had so much publicity in books, films, magazines etc. how could anyone possibly be fooled or deceived by it if it eventuates? Yet the Bible says that almost the whole world will fall victim to the antichrist's deceptions. Already the RCC is well on the way to accomplishing this, all the worlds politicians flock to the popes feet to kiss and listen to his "mouth speaking great things" ; indeed already "all the world wonders after the beast".
I have often said James, that the Christian world is so busy searching the horizon for an enemy to appear with guns blazing targeting the church, that they miss the friendly neighborhood "pal" about to pounce on them from behind.

That may be true, we shall see :). But focussing on the RCC too much can also lead to the same problem. Don't forget that many secular nations came out of the former Roman Empire and there is a world wide government comprised of secular anti-religion governments, and led by those more powerful than any Pope. So I believe when the anti-Christ appears even the Pope will look like an angel from heaven in comparison and he will be suppressed.

There is no doubt that the RCC is full of evils and the institution itself is against the true church, but there are true Christians in her and even the Pope is a true Christian if he believes Jesus came in the flesh and believes Jesus is Lord. So we must be careful we aren't slandering a brother in Christ, no matter how misguided or harmful they may be. Those who are not against us are for us.
 
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I think a lot of slandering rubbish is tossed at the Pope or Popes and it's just pathetic really.
For one the Pope does not claim to be Christ and if any say that he does that is 'slander' = the work of Satan.
A Christian should always be careful not to be a slanderer and i have a mate that claims to be a Christian but when i refer to some things he says as being just slander, he just does not see the gravity of the charge at all and just keeps on and on with rubbish. i say do you know who Satan is ? he is a slanderer ! for crying out loud. and i say why don't you go and seek what the RCC teachers, then you may have a more informed position on the mater. but no he will not bother, but just blindly follow his own guru 'Pope' a uneducated slandering narrow minded dolt in my opinion.
The Antichrist has no power unless people follow him. most so called Catholics do not follow the Pope at all in my opinion from what i have come across, and they are so ignorant that it amazes me no end. and the prots are so full of slander that they are a joke.
I was a protestant and looked into the RCC teachings, because i hated them so much and myself being a Hebrew as well did not cast a light on them very well indeed. so i thought i will catch these bastards out and expose them for what they are, but it blew me away to find out that it was my protestant mob that were so foolish and so full of Slander it was just sickening.
Now to be truthful to myself i will not swallow slander from anyone.
And i reject the RCC on it's covering up poofters and child molesters etc etc.
Today's world is going to the dogs because the fact is Christians must be fruitful and how can one be fruitful if you slander and lie around in filth.

Go follow your infallible 'MAN' then,..... It's your choice,..... just don't try forcing your religion on others like your Popes did during the inquisition, you follow whatever you will, but we are evangelical protestants here,.....try finding a Catholic forum "that's if there is one",......why?......because they've got nothing to say, no eternal life, no talk!

You're free to warn your own against what you consider false doctrine, as it is our right to protect the integrity of Gods word in what we consider to be the true doctrine of scripture. I make no apologies for doing that!

James, the temple will be a physical thing, just like the altar is a real altar, why do you think they're in the processes of preparation for the re-building of the temple, because it'll be a physical temple as were the others.
 
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Go follow your infallible 'MAN' then,..... It's your choice,..... just don't try forcing your religion on others like your Popes did during the inquisition, you follow whatever you will, but we are evangelical protestants here,.....try finding a Catholic forum "that's if there is one",......why?......because they've got nothing to say, no eternal life, no talk!

You're free to warn your own against what you consider false doctrine, as it is our right to protect the integrity of Gods word in what we consider to be the true doctrine of scripture. I make no apologies for doing that!

James, the temple will be a physical thing, just like the altar is a real altar, why do you think they're in the processes of preparation for the re-building of the temple, because it'll be a physical temple as were the others.

Thanks rodd, I am not a RC but i do look into things and i am glad to of left the rubbish my lutheran slandering mob pushed. and hey they were wrong and they would not bother to seek the truth because they knew it all ? and just rattled flat out on with a big spiel and when i said hang on lets go through this one step at a time, no no no ! they would not come at that, just like the Pharisees ignorant to the end.
I am serious about God ! and take no mans word for it, be it the Pope as well. but i do listen and have a open mind. and i dont tolerate slander.
I thought us prots were right and they the RC were fools but i found out it was my lot that were very misinformed, like the Pope is infallible great lie, i thought they were saying he was infallible, but if one looks into the doctrine of Papal infallibility you will realise it is not what you think it is at all. what slander i was spun by the prots and it makes me sick. it's a lie a filthy great lie ! why don't they just inform you of the truth. but no they want to lead you astray keep you in the dark and feed you like mushrooms. for crying out loud facts are facts.
And hey am i wrong to seek the truth dude ! i looked into it ! and if i stayed with the Lutherans i am sure i would of lost my faith just like every one my age i know who their with me has. they don't want God in their lives at all. good old Satan has won them over because they were feed like mushrooms.
Hey dude i am not a RC and i am not a bloody Jew and it sickens me to be told i am a Jew by numskulls professing to be Christians who idolise Jews nowdays, the Jews are nothing at all, but just a people, they are not even religious, don't look up to the commandments at all, but just dogs as the Bible says. it's Israel that Christ is the King of not the filthy derelict Jews.
How can one look up to Jews, who look down on Christ for crying out loud ! wake up to your self, you people are being lead up the garden path and their is nothing their but Satan. Jesus Christ is the light and only way so abide in him and he will in you.
I think i have every right to put my point across just like you can rodd, don't run away or push me aside that's a work of Satan i would think and i do contend with RC peoples views as well and they don't like it as well.
But i am open to listen to all and think i can give my opinion and if one does not like it big deal i am not forcing it down your neck.
 
The inquisitions happened a very long time ago and now we live in 2013 and times have changed, so there's really no need to keep bringing these things up and I highly doubt you or anyone you know were personally affected by these matters anyway, so there's no need to hold another era's grudge and hatred. Many Catholics I know of are very sincere people and
out of about 5 churches in my area the Catholic is the only one door knocking and handing out 'how to be born again' pamphlets.
In recent decades the differences between the churches have grown less and less so I'm not sure why people insist on digging up old wounds from a past era they were not even living in.

In terms of bible prophecy I believe there was considerable bias against the Catholic church by protestant theologians and ministers much like today there is much bias and untruths with Islam because of things that have happened.

I believe we should let history unfolding before us interpret prophecy, and not the other way around so looking at the trends, the Roman Catholic church is having less and less influence on the world and it is the rise of Islam and the secular countries including Europe and China that we should see might have some role to play in end times events. Frankly many of the old arguments against Roman Catholicism are outdated.
 
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Thanks rodd, I am not a RC but i do look into things and i am glad to of left the rubbish my lutheran slandering mob pushed. and hey they were wrong and they would not bother to seek the truth because they knew it all ? and just rattled flat out on with a big spiel and when i said hang on lets go through this one step at a time, no no no ! they would not come at that, just like the Pharisees ignorant to the end.
I am serious about God ! and take no mans word for it, be it the Pope as well. but i do listen and have a open mind. and i dont tolerate slander.
I thought us prots were right and they the RC were fools but i found out it was my lot that were very misinformed, like the Pope is infallible great lie, i thought they were saying he was infallible, but if one looks into the doctrine of Papal infallibility you will realise it is not what you think it is at all. what slander i was spun by the prots and it makes me sick. it's a lie a filthy great lie ! why don't they just inform you of the truth. but no they want to lead you astray keep you in the dark and feed you like mushrooms. for crying out loud facts are facts.
And hey am i wrong to seek the truth dude ! i looked into it ! and if i stayed with the Lutherans i am sure i would of lost my faith just like every one my age i know who their with me has. they don't want God in their lives at all. good old Satan has won them over because they were feed like mushrooms.
Hey dude i am not a RC and i am not a bloody Jew and it sickens me to be told i am a Jew by numskulls professing to be Christians who idolise Jews nowdays, the Jews are nothing at all, but just a people, they are not even religious, don't look up to the commandments at all, but just dogs as the Bible says. it's Israel that Christ is the King of not the filthy derelict Jews.
How can one look up to Jews, who look down on Christ for crying out loud ! wake up to your self, you people are being lead up the garden path and their is nothing their but Satan. Jesus Christ is the light and only way so abide in him and he will in you.
I think i have every right to put my point across just like you can rodd, don't run away or push me aside that's a work of Satan i would think and i do contend with RC peoples views as well and they don't like it as well.
But i am open to listen to all and think i can give my opinion and if one does not like it big deal i am not forcing it down your neck.

Slow down brother Puddleglum.

Reread what you've written, and see where you might have communicated your point without the bitterness, anger that always follows accusatory statements made by others towards oneself. Statements that fail to reflect the open mindedness professed by you and the slander you don't tolerate in others.

In making your point you could not have done better if you intended to, by showing how one can disagree with others and not be able to demonstrate the love of our Lord.

Even put upon, as you say, "abide in Him and He will in you", must be a reflection in not only what you do, but in what, and how you communicate you thoughts and feelings.

Your passion runs deep, don't let them overshadow the love for your brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus, and those unfortunate ones who do not call Christ Jesus, Lord and Savior.
YBIC
C4E

Ephesians 4:31-32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: [32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

I realize you're not the only one, but the spirit within me directed me to this post.
Love you brother.
 
The inquisitions happened a very long time ago and now we live in 2013 and times have changed, so there's really no need to keep bringing these things up and I highly doubt you or anyone you know were personally affected by these matters anyway, so there's no need to hold another era's grudge and hatred.
It isn't just the inquisitions that one must take into account . Those particular events, absurd and wicked as they were, covered only a comparatively short period of time over the effective life-span of the first period of RCC dominance in European history. Of the 1200 odd years of papal rule from 538 to 1798 (1260 years) the inquisitions were used only for a few centuries from the 12th to around the 14th. Outside of this, and concurrent with this, was a constantly practiced policy of persecution and war against any and all who would dare choose to practice any form of religion, regardless of whether it be Christian or not. This policy and belief in a God- given right to demand subservience and obedience to papal rule was entrenched in dogma and practice. True that no-one has been personally affected by these practices, however, our forefathers were, my own, only several generations distant, having to escape France because of the continuing war against Protestants (Hugenoets) after the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre. Interestingly, Pope John Paul celebrated a mass in conjunction with a world Catholic youth congress in Paris about 10 years ago or so celebrating this event. The question to be asked is does the Catholic hierarchy still hold to the belief in their right to persecute and kill so-called heretics under papal infallibility? If what was "right" 500 years ago is it not "right" today?
 
It isn't just the inquisitions that one must take into account . Those particular events, absurd and wicked as they were, covered only a comparatively short period of time over the effective life-span of the first period of RCC dominance in European history. Of the 1200 odd years of papal rule from 538 to 1798 (1260 years) the inquisitions were used only for a few centuries from the 12th to around the 14th. Outside of this, and concurrent with this, was a constantly practiced policy of persecution and war against any and all who would dare choose to practice any form of religion, regardless of whether it be Christian or not. This policy and belief in a God- given right to demand subservience and obedience to papal rule was entrenched in dogma and practice. True that no-one has been personally affected by these practices, however, our forefathers were, my own, only several generations distant, having to escape France because of the continuing war against Protestants (Hugenoets) after the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre. Interestingly, Pope John Paul celebrated a mass in conjunction with a world Catholic youth congress in Paris about 10 years ago or so celebrating this event. The question to be asked is does the Catholic hierarchy still hold to the belief in their right to persecute and kill so-called heretics under papal infallibility? If what was "right" 500 years ago is it not "right" today?

Hello Brakelite.

Noticed in the post above a reference to a time period 538 to 1798 of Papal Rule?

There is indeed some doubt on this time period you mentioned. A Professor of theology at
Andrews University casts doubt on this time period you mentioned. First some background.


S Bacchiocchi was a Seventh Day Adventist author and theologian, best known for his work on the Sabbath in Christianity,
particularly in the historical work "From Sabbath to Sunday". S Bacchiocchi taught in the religion department of Andrews University
from 1974 till his retirement in 2000. He served as professor of theology and church history.


Concerning the Catholic Papacy established in 538 AD.

In the 1888 edition of "The Great Controversy", Mrs White wrote:

"The 1260 years of Papal supremacy began with the establishment of the Papacy in 538 AD, and would therefore terminate in 1798." (p. 266)
"This period, as stated in the preceding chapters, began with the establishment of the papacy, A. D. 538, and terminated in 1798.
At that time, when the papacy was abolished and the pope was made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound,
and the prediction was fulfilled, 'He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity." (p. 439)


In his newsletter, Dr. Bacchiochi points out that the supremacy of the papacy was actually established centuries prior to 538 A.D!

In my dissertation "From Sabbath to Sunday", I have shown that the development of the papal primacy began already in the second century,
when the Pope exercised his ecumenical authority by imposing on Christian churches at large, Easter Sunday, weekly Sunday, and by condemning
various movements like the Montanists.


Dr. Bacchiocchi is certainly not the first Adventist historian to question the 538 date. For years Adventist historians and theologians have searched
in vain for any evidence that anything significant happened to the papacy in 538.


To this point in time, nothing has been found. However, one thing is certain, the papacy was not established in 538.

When did the supremacy of the papacy begin? Dr. Bacchiochhi writes.

"The development of the 'supremacy of the papacy' began long before 538. In his book on "The History of the Christian Church", which had served for many years as the standard text book for church history classes. Williston Walker devotes chapter 6 to the 'Growth of the Papacy' during the fourth and fifth centuries. He points out that during this period there were influential popes like Damasus (366-384), Innocent I (402-417), and Leo I, called 'the Great' (440-461), who greatly advanced both the spiritual and temporal power of the papacy.
 
It isn't just the inquisitions that one must take into account . Those particular events, absurd and wicked as they were, covered only a comparatively short period of time over the effective life-span of the first period of RCC dominance in European history. Of the 1200 odd years of papal rule from 538 to 1798 (1260 years) the inquisitions were used only for a few centuries from the 12th to around the 14th. Outside of this, and concurrent with this, was a constantly practiced policy of persecution and war against any and all who would dare choose to practice any form of religion, regardless of whether it be Christian or not. This policy and belief in a God- given right to demand subservience and obedience to papal rule was entrenched in dogma and practice. True that no-one has been personally affected by these practices, however, our forefathers were, my own, only several generations distant, having to escape France because of the continuing war against Protestants (Hugenoets) after the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre. Interestingly, Pope John Paul celebrated a mass in conjunction with a world Catholic youth congress in Paris about 10 years ago or so celebrating this event. The question to be asked is does the Catholic hierarchy still hold to the belief in their right to persecute and kill so-called heretics under papal infallibility? If what was "right" 500 years ago is it not "right" today?

I do think times have changed, Catholicism has progressed a lot since these times. So instead of having a prophetic view stuck in the past with the old reformers, we should be considering who are the major players in today's society that could play a role in biblical prophecy, and I cannot say it is the Catholic church. There is Islam and all the secular and protestant pseudo-Christian states, and society is becoming more and more secular and evil.
 
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Hello Brakelite.

Noticed in the post above a reference to a time period 538 to 1798 of Papal Rule?

There is indeed some doubt on this time period you mentioned. A Professor of theology at
Andrews University casts doubt on this time period you mentioned. First some background.


S Bacchiocchi was a Seventh Day Adventist author and theologian, best known for his work on the Sabbath in Christianity,
particularly in the historical work "From Sabbath to Sunday". S Bacchiocchi taught in the religion department of Andrews University
from 1974 till his retirement in 2000. He served as professor of theology and church history.


Concerning the Catholic Papacy established in 538 AD.

In the 1888 edition of "The Great Controversy", Mrs White wrote:

"The 1260 years of Papal supremacy began with the establishment of the Papacy in 538 AD, and would therefore terminate in 1798." (p. 266)
"This period, as stated in the preceding chapters, began with the establishment of the papacy, A. D. 538, and terminated in 1798.
At that time, when the papacy was abolished and the pope was made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound,
and the prediction was fulfilled, 'He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity." (p. 439)


In his newsletter, Dr. Bacchiochi points out that the supremacy of the papacy was actually established centuries prior to 538 A.D!

In my dissertation "From Sabbath to Sunday", I have shown that the development of the papal primacy began already in the second century,
when the Pope exercised his ecumenical authority by imposing on Christian churches at large, Easter Sunday, weekly Sunday, and by condemning
various movements like the Montanists.


Dr. Bacchiocchi is certainly not the first Adventist historian to question the 538 date. For years Adventist historians and theologians have searched
in vain for any evidence that anything significant happened to the papacy in 538.


To this point in time, nothing has been found. However, one thing is certain, the papacy was not established in 538.

When did the supremacy of the papacy begin? Dr. Bacchiochhi writes.

"The development of the 'supremacy of the papacy' began long before 538. In his book on "The History of the Christian Church", which had served for many years as the standard text book for church history classes. Williston Walker devotes chapter 6 to the 'Growth of the Papacy' during the fourth and fifth centuries. He points out that during this period there were influential popes like Damasus (366-384), Innocent I (402-417), and Leo I, called 'the Great' (440-461), who greatly advanced both the spiritual and temporal power of the papacy.
I have no argument with the fact the the development of the papacy began even as early as the 2nd century, and during that time exercised religious and civil authority, although as I will shortly explain, in a limited capacity. We all know that the Roman empire disintegrated, what isn't recognised because of the deceptive nature of futurism is how that disintegration so accuratly reflected prophecy. The fourth beast of Daniel 7 depicted 10 horns growing from its head, with an eleventh little horn growing up after, but among them. Rome was overun by ten Garmanic tribes, 7 becoming the foundation of modern Europe, 3 now extinct. It was the little horn which instigated their demise, that little horn being the papacy.

The story goes like this: (the following courtesy of Pastor S Bohr.

Seven of the ten Barbarian kingdoms were converted to Christianity and submitted to the authority of the Bishop of Rome. However, three of the kingdoms converted toChristianity but embraced the heretical teachings of Arius. Arius (who was presbyter in Alexandria around the year 320 A. D.) taught that Christ was created out of nothing as the first and
greatest of all creatures(Loraine Boettner, Bakers Dictionary of Theology, pp. 64-65).

The teachings of Arius were condemned in two great church councils, Nicea (325 A. D.) and Constantinople (381 A. D.). These three Arian kingd\oms were a threat to the supremacy of the
Bishop of Rome [later called the Pope]. To make a long story short, these three kingdoms eventually were uprooted by the imperial power acting under the influence of the Bishop of Rome. The Ostrogoths (originally from Yugoslavia), by order of the emperor, dealt the heretical Heruli a devastating defeat in 493.

It happened like this: The Pope requested the emperor to do something about the unorthodox Heruli. In response, the emperor sent Theodoric, king of the Ostrogoths to do battle with Odoacer,
king of the Heruli. Odoacer was slain by Theodoric and the Heruli disappeared from history. Then the Vandals were crushed (in 534 A. D.) by Belisarius, general of emperor Justinians armies.

But there was one remaining horn which needed to be uprooted, and it was the most formidable of all: the Ostrogoths. After the Ostrogoths conquered the Heruli, they became extremely powerful.
They were also Arians, so the Bishop of Rome [the Pope] implored Justinian to uproot the Ostrogoths. Justinian, in turn, implored the Franks to help him in his holy enterprise:
When Justinian first meditated the conquest of Italy, he sent ambassadors to the kings of the Franks, and adjured them, by the common ties of alliance and religion, to join in the holy enterprise against the Arians.
Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, volume 4 [chapter 41, paragraph 32] (New York: Harper & Brothers), p. 175.
.

There were several battles between Belisarius and the Ostrogoths. The decisive battle, however, was in February (remember the month, we will come back to it later) of the year 538. The armies
of Justinian, as well as the ravages of disease, decimated the armies of the Ostrogoths, they were expelled from Rome and in short order, disappeared from the historical scene in Europe. The third
horn had been uprooted once and for all!

It is of great significance that in 533 A. D. Justinian proclaimed a decree which recognized the Popes headship over all the churches of east and west.
This decree was actually a letter written by Justinian to Pope John. The letter was included in

The Code of Justinian which is a collection of Justinians laws. It must be remembered that this letter had the force of law. In effect, theCode of Justinian was the standard law of all Europe for over one thousand years until it was replaced in the late 1700's by the Code of Napoleon. Part of Justinians decree reads as follows:




Therefore, we have exerted ourselvesto unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and, according to the doctrine of Your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by

all priests. . . because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way(as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See. . .

(S. P. Scott, The Civil Law, vol. 12, pp. 11-13).



The significance of this decree is that the Roman Emperor was legitimizing the spiritual authority of the Pope. The state was using its clout to proclaim that only the Pope was the authentic spokesman for orthodox Christianity. Though this decree was given in 533 A. D., it was not fully implemented until the rebel Ostrogoths were devastated in 538 A. D.


On the devastating defeat of the Ostrogoths in 538 A. D., Thomas Hodgkin remarks:


Some of them [the retreating Goths] must have suspected the melancholy truth that they had dug one grave deeper and wider than all, the grave of the Gothic monarchy in Italy.

(Thomas Hodgkin, Italy and Her Invaders, book 5, chap. 9, last par. [vol. 4, p. 285]).

Most historians agree that the decimation of the Ostrogoths in Italy marked the beginning of the Middle Ages. Notice the comment by George Finlay:
With the conquest of Rome by Belisarius, the history of the ancient city may be considered as terminating; and with his defense against Witiges [A. D. 538], commences the history of the Middle Ages.

(George Finlay, Greece Under the Romans, p. 295)

It is important to remember also that historians mark 538 A. D. as the transition between old Imperial Rome and the Rome of the Middle Ages. Notice the words of C. F. Young:

It was the last time [when Belisarius entered in 536] that Imperial Rome the old imperial Rome of Italy as distinguished from the new imperial Rome by the Bosporus, the Rome created by Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Vespasian, Domitian, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus, Severus, and Caracalla was to be seen by mankind. . .

Rome when it was entered by Belisarius was the Rome that mankind had known for centuries. . . But this Rome was to be seen no more. When eighteen years later the Gothic war was ended, a battered ruin was all that remained; classical Rome had passed away forever, to be succeeded after a time by the squalid and miserable city which is the Rome of the middle Ages.

(C. F. Young, East and West Through Fifteen Centuries, Vol. II, p. 222)


The Ostrogoths did not disappear in 538 A. D., but the decisive battle had been won, the handwriting was on the wall. In 540 A. D. Witiges (king of the Ostrogoths) was dealt a further blow by Belisarius at Ravenna. And in 550 A. D.,what was left of the Ostrogoths was totally wiped out and the Ostrogoths were history. It is of great significance that today no trace can be found of the Heruli anywhere in Europe. There is nomemory of the Vandals in North Africa. And all that remains of the Ostrogoths is King Theodoris Mausoleum (built in the early 6th century) in Ravenna. Theodoric was buried in this mausoleum in 526 A. D., but today his body is gone. When Belisarius conquered Ravenna in 540 A. D., Theodorics body was removed from the casket and discarded. So it is literally true that the three horns were uprooted!!

 
I do think times have changed, Catholicism has progressed a lot since these times. So instead of having a prophetic view stuck in the past with the old reformers, we should be considering who are the major players in today's society that could play a role in biblical prophecy, and I cannot say it is the Catholic church. There is Islam and all the secular and protestant pseudo-Christian states, and society is becoming more and more secular and evil.
James, times have certainly changed, but not the geopolitical and global aspirations of the Roman church. These aspirations have been part and parcel of her psyche for centuries, and she uses scripture to substantiate that claim to global dominion. Not only so, but prophecy demands it. And not just global dominion, but the use of force to accomp0lish it.
James, the church of Rome which you claim has changed is the very same church, with the same doctrines, the same claim to infallibility, the same claim to a presumed God- given right to exterminate all heretics using torture and death, the same church with global ambitions to rule using force if necessary, again, is the same church that murdered and tortured millions over the course of 1200 odd years, has declared unrelenting war against all who would dare worship according to conscience as opposed to the dictates of the popes of Rome. Yes, today she no longer does actively persecute heretics. But I would opine that this is solely due to her inability to do so due to the social, media, and political climate we currently live in, and most certainly not due to any change of heart with the vatican.
 
DHC, further to my previous post. Note that from the actual implementation of the declaration of civil and religious authority from Justinian in 538, that is being the year (February in fact) that the Ostrogoths were finally expelled from Rome, to the capture of the pope and the confiscation of the papal states in 1798 was precisely 1260 years. To the month! Times, time and half a time; 1260 days; 42 months. Futurism has effectively cut off the feet from the legs of Nebuchadnezzars vision of a statue, transported them 2000 odd years into the future, and thus hidden the true antichrist in the gap thus created,as if God wasn't interested in the dark ages; as if God wasn't interested in the persecutions of His people during that time; as if God wasn't interested in the greatest aapostacy in the history of the church; as if Paul knew of the great "falling away" and wrote of it, but God simply passed over it as if it were of no account and removed the entire 1500 odd years from prophecy. DHC, God did no such thing. Discard futurism, discard preterism, for they are both tools of Satan and the true antichrist to hide the truth. Only an historicist approach to prophecy reveals the truth. Only an historicist approach to prophecy accounts for the years of apostacy and persecution of those 1260 years of the dark ages. Only an historicist approach to prophecy unveils what God is warning the church of in these last days.

Incidentally, just as an added bonus, as if God were saying, "if you need any further evidence try this...." 5 years before 538 Justinian made that written declaration, which we can today read in what is called Justinian's code.It took 5 years before it could be fully implemented because the last remaining horn, the Ostrogoths, were still occupying Rome and the papacy did not have full authority. They could not even elect a pope without the Ostrogoth approval.
In 1793 the government of France officially declared all religion to be banned from France. Churches were closed, priests exiled or killed, all religious books burned, all religious people, whether Catholic or protestant, killed or exiled. It took however 5 further years for this to be also fully implemented and for atheism to take root, for not until 1798 was Berthier able to enter Rome and bring down the head of France's sworn enemy, the pope. That this was a fulfillment of the prophecy regarding the mortal head wound of the beast, there can be little doubt, for all political rulers of those times believed that the papal church was finished. Even France made a law that there was to be no further elections to the Vatican, to all intents and purposes, the Roman Catholic church was dead.
If you read some of the headlines around the time of the reinstatement of the papal states and the Vatican's return to the pope in 1929, you will appreciate that rulers of that time referred to this event as a miracle, a resurrection so to speak from the dead. Even Catholic writers agreed with this view. Today, as the prophecy indicates, "all the world wonders after the beast".
 
Well Satan is a work and you will know his works if you are in Christ Jesus.
Just look around you all and see sin growing ? where is it coming from ? look at our Governments they resist Christ and are forcing him out in every way they can. they are attacking now with everything they have.
Just look to what Hitler was up to and Starlin's lot did and it's coming hear due to Fabian socialism on the march with all their political correct gods. so welcome to becoming just an number.
 
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