What is evil? Can God be guilty of it?

[KingJ]

Autognosticism.

Please explain.

I assume you are referring to a disbelief in God. But don't want to assume.

 

[B-A-C]

They help the poor and needy on a weekly basis. Are they pure evil?

It doesn't matter if they are or not. If they don't accept Jesus, they're just as guilty as if they broke every single commandment.
This "grading" right or wrong doesn't make sense. The Bible does say some sins are worse than others. But the ultimate
consequences for little white lies are the same as raping 100 children and killing them.

Jesus is the only way to change this. You can be as good as you want to, there are certainly moral Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists.
But without Jesus, it doesn't matter. Into the fire you go.

In the story of the talents, the story of the ten virgins, the story of the sheep and the goats, the story of the tree that didn't bear any
fruit. None of those people did anything wrong. The guy with 1 talents didn't sin. He didn't lie, or steal, or commit adultery.
All he did was... "nothing". The goats, they didn't commit fornication, they didn't cheat, the didn't worship false gods, all they
did was "nothing". The five foolish virgins, didn't do any grotesque sins, all they did was run out of oil. The church of Ephesus, all they did
was "lose their first love". But they were going to have their lampstand removed.

God sent His only Son to die for these people. To keep them out of hell, and they reject Him. That's all it takes.
They're just as guilty in God's eyes as Stalin, Hitler, Nero, Judas, or anyone else you want to put on this list.

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

If they've ever committed one single sin in their entire life....

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Our sin nailed Jesus to the cross. An innocent man. That's "pure evil" in God's eyes.
You say if God allows people to do evil, that's the same as Him doing it. I obviously don't agree.
People torture people all the time. Millions of people have been tortured over the centuries. Why didn't
God stop it? God's plan for Jesus was for Him to be "tortured" with whips, scourges, thorns, nails, beatings,
a spear.... Is God evil for allowing this to happen?
Luke 22:42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
Was it God's will for this to happen?

Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

 

[B-A-C]

Ezek 9:4 The LORD said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst."
Ezek 9:5 But to the others He said in my hearing, "Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare.
Ezek 9:6 "Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary." So they started with the elders who were before the temple.

1Sam 15:2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
1Sam 15:3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
1Sam 15:4 Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah.

Is God evil for telling them to do this? What did the little children and infants do wrong here?

The Bible says there's only two sides in this war. There is no neutral ground, either you're for Him or against Him.
If you're not for Him, you are the enemy.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C, thanks for a well thought out and efforted reply. I agree with most of what you are saying. I am going to nitpick though as this thread is about a very specific topic that I believe is important for us to grasp.

It doesn't matter if they are or not. If they don't accept Jesus, they're just as guilty as if they broke every single commandment.
This "grading" right or wrong doesn't make sense. The Bible does say some sins are worse than others. But the ultimate
consequences for little white lies are the same as raping 100 children and killing them.

In no universe and on no planet will the punishment for white lies be the same as raping 100 children.

Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done''.
Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

The only truth to 'sin is sin' is that sin separates us from God.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God.

The punishment sinners receive is a completely separate topic. We must not jump to assumptions. God is righteous yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways and faithful in all he does.
Num 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Jesus is the only way to change this. You can be as good as you want to, there are certainly moral Muslims, Buddhists and Atheists.
But without Jesus, it doesn't matter. Into the fire you go.

We must be very careful on how we present Christianity to the lost! As explained in the OP here So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!.

You are not en-route to heaven because you believe in Jesus and are in the right Christian denomination. You are a Christian because your heart is after God's. Because you have genuine love that hates what is evil and clings to what is good.

Acts 13:22 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do''.
Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Many Christians think they are Christians because they have faith in Jesus. But upon interrogation God will find their faith as significant as a faith in unicorns.

The only faith that matters to God is the faith He gives us. Only when He gives us saving faith to believe Jesus is Lord, are we a Christian. As explained in the thread I linked, God is not a fool that does not properly vet someone before giving the saving faith and adopting them into His family.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Rom 12:3 God gives varying measures of faith to his people.
Jer 17:9-12 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? “I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind.

 

[KingJ]

In the story of the talents, the story of the ten virgins, the story of the sheep and the goats, the story of the tree that didn't bear any
fruit. None of those people did anything wrong. The guy with 1 talents didn't sin. He didn't lie, or steal, or commit adultery.
All he did was... "nothing". The goats, they didn't commit fornication, they didn't cheat, the didn't worship false gods, all they
did was "nothing". The five foolish virgins, didn't do any grotesque sins, all they did was run out of oil. The church of Ephesus, all they did
was "lose their first love". But they were going to have their lampstand removed.

Oil in your lamp is a reference to being ready for Jesus, the Bride. As a non-OSAS believer, you know exactly what that entails.

Running out of oil relates to those who would A - continue in lying, C - continue in stealing, D - continue in adultery.

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

The virgins with oil are those who are ready for Jesus. They would need to be repentant sinners, they would need to have living works. Living works are not doing what is evil.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

God sent His only Son to die for these people. To keep them out of hell, and they reject Him. That's all it takes.

Again, we need to be very careful how we teach Jesus to the lost.

Rejecting Jesus is not simply saying 'I believe in Islam over believing in Jesus'. Rejecting Jesus requires loving what is evil and resisting the Holy Spirit!

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Matt 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

They're just as guilty in God's eyes as Stalin, Hitler, Nero, Judas, or anyone else you want to put on this list.

Completely disagree, see post #29.

I do agree that all unrepentant sinners will reject Jesus and go to hell. You come largely unstuck though as you assume God stops being just in hell. You assume that all in hell will be tortured with fire in equal measure for all eternity. Let's try avoid another discussion on that absolute perversion of justice. It was well discussed here What to expect in hell and God incapable of torturing anyone explained here Discussion on Torture.

John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

This is true, but as explained in above, in post # 29 and here What is a Christian and how do you become one? and here So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! there is a lot to consider when accepting Jesus.

We must be careful how we present Christianity to the lost. Accepting Jesus is not choosing religion A over religion B, stating magical phrases or believing in the correct unicorn

 

[B-A-C]

In no universe and on no planet will the punishment for white lies be the same as raping 100 children.

Do you have scripture to support this?

Rejecting Jesus is not simply saying 'I believe in Islam over believing in Jesus'. Rejecting Jesus requires loving what is evil and resisting the Holy Spirit!

Huh??

 

[KingJ]

If they've ever committed one single sin in their entire life....

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Our sin nailed Jesus to the cross. An innocent man. That's "pure evil" in God's eyes.

There is more to consider. Please see paragraph 3 in post # 30 above.
With regards to your 'pure evil' statement. Incorrect.

I think I have given you Matt 5:28 and Matt 5:32 a million times. I will do so once more.

In Matt 5:28 Jesus makes the point that the thought of adultery is a sin.
In Matt 5:32 Jesus makes the point that unless there is actual adultery, not merely thoughts, do not divorce.
In 1 Cor 5:1 Paul rebukes a so called Christian guilty of incest, not a person thinking of incest.
In Rom 7:15 Paul says he continues to sin. Was he referring to the sin of murdering Christians? Yes or No?
In Gen 18:20 we see God's patience ran out with the sin of Sodom, as their sin was now grievous!
In Acts 5 we see that God killed Ananias and Sapphira instantly for their grievous sin. He did not kill those around them for their white lies.

I can go on all day.

Pure evil = pure evil! Torture = pure evil!

You say if God allows people to do evil, that's the same as Him doing it. I obviously don't agree.
People torture people all the time. Millions of people have been tortured over the centuries. Why didn't
God stop it? God's plan for Jesus was for Him to be "tortured" with whips, scourges, thorns, nails, beatings,
a spear.... Is God evil for allowing this to happen?

You missed my context. When it relates to eternal hell, the home of the wicked. We need to think of God as a prison warden. A warden that allows inmates to torture one another is guilty of the sin.

On earth, all evil that takes place is tied to free will and incriminates man, not God. See here for an explanation Free will.

God hates evil! for sure! but allows it as Free will is a greater good then no free will. We realize that angels and humans are very special creations if we meditate on this fact. God allows what he utterly hates to take place, to have children and angels in His house, who, like Him, also hate what is evil!

Psalm 97:10 O you who love the Lord, hate evil!
Psalm 45:17 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.

People torture people all the time. Millions of people have been tortured over the centuries.

What you need to grasp is:

1. that God is just! Job 34:12.
2. Paul rebukes Christians who can't judge criminal acts in 1 Cor 6:1-9
3. What judge on this planet saved or unsaved, would not sentence to death or life imprisonment a person guilty of torturing someone else?

People who have tortured others, will get a harsher punishment in hell.

Why didn't
God stop it? God's plan for Jesus was for Him to be "tortured" with whips, scourges, thorns, nails, beatings,
a spear.... Is God evil for allowing this to happen?
Luke 22:42 saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
Was it God's will for this to happen? Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

I isolated this from the above explanation as there are some other facts to note.

1. It was always God's plan to live His life down for us on the cross. It is the greatest act of love possible.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

2. God was pleased to bruise Jesus as He requires sin to be punished. We do not disagree on this. Only the punishment.

3. It is just to punish sinners. Criminals. No righteous person would disagree.

4. It is not just to punish evil with evil. Or torture the evil. No righteous person would disagree.

 

[KingJ]

Ezek 9:4 The LORD said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst."
Ezek 9:5 But to the others He said in my hearing, "Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare.
Ezek 9:6 "Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary." So they started with the elders who were before the temple.

1Sam 15:2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
1Sam 15:3 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
1Sam 15:4 Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah.

Is God evil for telling them to do this? What did the little children and infants do wrong here?

Well, lets imagine how a conversation with God on this will go in heaven. This is not unrealistic as we see in Gen 18 Abraham conversed with God on Sodom's destruction and Moses in Exo 32 with the Israelites worshipping the golden calf.

Question to God : God why did you kill all of the Amalekites? Why did you instruct that even children and woman be killed.

God's answer: Well, KingJ and BAC, you need to understand that A. It was a swift death of all, no torture. B. Their sin was full measure. I spared the Amorites until their sin too was full measure Gen 15:16. C. All children found themselves in heaven. D. All repentant woman and men found themselves in Abrahams bosom. E. Their society at large was so corrupt and like Sodom and Noah's flood, the only solution was removing them.

Question to God: God, BAC says you will torture them in fire for all eternity. Will you use a torture device like the brazen bull, knowing that it was only used by the most wicked of people?

God's answer: Big frown to BAC's, stop being silly my son. You are welcome to go and watch their punishment and if you disagree with it, come and tell me. I will swiftly deal with the angels guilty of mismanagement!

BAC, please try grasp that it should be unthinkable that God do what is wicked or pervert justice! Job 34:12

The Bible says there's only two sides in this war. There is no neutral ground, either you're for Him or against Him.
If you're not for Him, you are the enemy.

Well, as I said in my OP. It is not incorrect to state this as God is truly good Mark 10:18. If you love the Lord, you will hate what is evil. If you love what is evil, you will hate Jesus John 3:19.

And, since the context of this thread is about what evil is. We need to note that God is not good because He is 'God'. He is good, because He does not do what is evil!

And the purest action of evil, is to torture someone. If you don't think it is, you have not meditated on the topic.

 

[KingJ]

Do you have scripture to support this?

I gave two right after the statement...?

1. Rape. Assuming the degree of rape was 10/10:

Deut 22:25 But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.

Die, being a graphic and violent death by stoning.

2. White lie.

No punishment mentioned as no punishment was given. There was no reason to isolate this example of a lie. I can understand why.

-----------------------------------

Scripture speaks to degrees of sin and differing punishments for sins in the OT and degrees in many verses in the NT. See first paragraph of my post # 32.

In Judaism, there were punishments of warnings, lashes, excommunication and than for capital crimes, a swift, violent and graphic death by stoning. All this ordained by God and in scripture.

Than, the most direct scripture for your question is EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE that says God is just. Disagreeing with me would mean you disagree with the dictionary!

just
/dʒʌst/

adjective

1. based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

Huh??

You say that to this passage:

Rejecting Jesus is not simply saying 'I believe in Islam over believing in Jesus'. Rejecting Jesus requires loving what is evil and resisting the Holy Spirit!

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Matt 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Do you disagree with the scripture given? Note how John 3:19 clearly states the reason for rejecting Jesus! IE, they love what is evil!

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C I am getting this icky feeling that you believe:

1. The choice of Jesus over no Jesus, has nothing to do with loving evil over hating it.
2. God cannot be evil because He is God and evil is best defined as going against any of His laws, whether they be good or bad, is mostly irrelevant.

These are terrible beliefs. I hope I am misinterpreting you!

 

[KingJ]

No.

I won't explain.

You'll just get into some obscure argument and then start insulting me again.

I decline the dance.
Rhema

(But I did answer your question, and the explanation is found in Gen 3:11 if you wish God to teach you.)

I see you added the last line. Gen 3:11 is not related to autognosticism. It is a separate topic that has been addressed in the above posts with BAC.

 

[Rhema]

You don't want to explain because you know it won't hold water. Why even respond to the question?

You asked. I was being nice and replied.

Had I not answered, you would have had another fit just to insult me.

Gen 3:11 is not related to autognosticism.

How gracious of you to keep telling me what I know and what I don't know, when you've never heard of the word before.

The true core of evil is Autognosticism, and to understand this, one must remain in deep prayer and allow God to explain Gen 3:11 to you. That's the only way you'll understand.

May God enlighten your heart,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

The only faith that matters to God is the faith He gives us. Only when He gives us saving faith to believe Jesus is Lord, are we a Christian.

Interesting.

That sounds very Calvinistic.

Don't you think?

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I see you added the last line.

No, the line was always there.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema, your replies are always so eccentric, emotional and cheesy.

Thank you kindly.
You have a nice day.