What Is HELL ?

[Bill Taylor]

Interesting, because when man was created, there was no body. Jesus didn't become flesh until several thousand years later. It would seem obvious then that being made in the image of God doesn't mean, spirit, body, and soul.

The Bible tells us very clearly what man is in Genesis 2:7. The body, animated by God's spirit, became a living soul. Two things came together to form a third. Take water. Oxygen and hydrogen come together to form water. Water is made of Oxygen and hydrogen. It's not made of Oxygen, hydrogen, and water. Likewise, the Bible tells us that man, or the soul, is made of body and spirit which is the breath of God. Man is not a spirit. The Bible states plainly that man is flesh and it comes straight from God Himself.

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

Notice what God said, man is flesh. He didn't say man is a spirit being living in a flesh body. He said man is flesh. This is why Platonic Dualism doesn't align with Scripture. It's Platonic Dualism that supposes man is a spirit being living in a flesh body, not Scripture.

The Spirit is eternal, yes. However, the spirit is God, not man. Man is flesh and finite.

Why do you guys keep ignoring the questions I present?

If man is eternal then why did God promise eternal life to the believer?
There's no point in promising eternal life to some who already has ernal life, is there?

What do we find in what is arguably the most quoted passage of Scriputre?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

Did John say whosoever believes in Him should not suffer eterbal conscious torment? Or did he says whosoever believes I'm Him should not "perish"?

Did John not know what he was talking about? Did he not have as good a grasp on Kione Greek as our modern translators and commentators?

Or, is it more likely that John knew exactly what he was saying and our modern translators have missed the boat. My money is on John.

Have you prayerfully read the Scriptures through as a book?

 

[B-A-C]

Please explain how eternal conscious torment is a just punishment for a short finite period of sin?

I don't have to explain it, I don't have to logic it, it doesn't have to make sense to me. It just has to be in the Bible.

No one in this thread has yet to explain why Jesus and the apostles all speak of the end of the aion if in fact it never ends.

Several people have, including myself. There are some scriptures that say aion, there are other scriptures that say aionios. Which never ends.

It's really just a matter of who we believe. Do we believe Jesus and the apostles or do we believe modern translators and theologians? I

It's always the Bible that's wrong when it goes against someone's theology. Imagine that. I have copies of both the Alexandrian and Byzantine manuscripts. Aionios is used in both of them.

Matthew 13:40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Are the elect gathered up at the end of eternity. If that's case eternal life isn't going to be very long.

The Bible also speaks of a New heaven and New Earth and the "next age". This isn't the only age mentioned in the Bible.

Matt 12:32; "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30; who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."
Eph 1:21; far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

 

[B-A-C]

. I would think Christians would be elated and jumping for joy to know that their God doesn't torment people for eternity. I know I was.

Then you are worshiping an idol. A God that you made to be what you want. Not what the Bible says. I would add God doesn't send people to hell. He doesn't want anyone to go there. People make their own choice to go there.

Interesting, because when man was created, there was no body. Jesus didn't become flesh until several thousand years later.

Jesus is God, He always existed, you are a man, you didn't. The physical body always comes first. Do you have any scripture that says Jesus only existed for a few thousand years?

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

 

[Butch5]

Have you prayerfully read the Scriptures through as a book?

I have listened repeatedly. There have been times when I've listened to the Bible for 10 to 12 hours a day. I listened to the NT where I played it over and over and over. I’ve studied the Scriptures in depth for at least 16 years. I'm well aware of the doctrines, the passages used to support them and the flaws in the arguments. I used to hold those positions. Upon studying Scripture as opposed to proof texting it becomes quite clear that God is a God of love and not torture.

The eternal torment doctrine is based on a mistranslation of one word, aion. It's mistranslated based on one erroneous doctrine, the Immortal Soul, which is not Biblical. It entered Christianity through Greek Philosphy. It was the teaching of Plato. It's known as Dualism. The idea that man is a spirit living in a flesh body. However, Scripture flatly refutes that idea.

For some reason many today seem to think that the way "they" understand Scripture is the correct understanding without giving any thought to history. Maybe, just maybe, the people who were actually there had a better understanding than those who are "reading" a translation of what happened. Just maybe, the people who actually spoke the language as their first language, had a better understanding than those "reading" a translation that was made some 2000 years after the events.

I mean, much of what we hear today doesn't even make sense today, let alone trying to make it make sense with something written 2000 years ago.

People don't like to face facts but, the reality is, we either believe Jesus and the apostles or we don't. They said the aion ends. That's crystal clear. Our English word eternity means unending. Thus, something that ends cannot be eternal. So, the question is, Do we believe Jesus and the apostles or not? It's really that simple

 

[Bill Taylor]

I have listened repeatedly.

Listening means you have never prayerfully, with respect to Yehova, read the Bible under te guidence of the Ruah. It is not the same.

 

[Curtis]

God "created" man first as a spirit being. Later God "formed" man's "body" (not created) and then placed his spirit man into a physical body.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[Butch5]

Listening means you have never prayerfully, with respect to Yehova, read the Bible under te guidence of the Ruah. It is not the same.

No ot doesn't

 

[Butch5]

God "created" man first as a spirit being. Later God "formed" man's "body" (not created) and then placed his spirit man into a physical body.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No, mam is not created a spirit. That's Greek Philosphy.

 

[B-A-C]

God "created" man first as a spirit being. Later God "formed" man's "body" (not created) and then placed his spirit man into a physical body.

Mormon Spirit Child Theology.

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

 

[Curtis]

Mormon Spirit Child Theology.

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

Are these few scriptures talking about the physical body vs the spiritual body? If it is then the physical body is first and then the spiritual body. It is not talking about the spirit of man. Man is a spirit, who has a soul and lives inside a body. The body can not live without the spirit but the spirit can live without the body.

 

[Curtis]

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

How many people does God know before they are born on planet Earth? How could God write all the names in the Lamb Book of Life of those who would be saved before the creation of the world if he did not know them before they existed? Was there ever a time in eternity past when God did not know their names? What part of man did God know, his body or his spirit, and soul? Not that God has little baby spirits floating around in Heaven and then injects them into a body. Just the fact that he knows them they exist in his heart even before they exist, and this in no way interferes with man's free will choice. nothing is by chance.

This is way beyond human comprehension to the natural man for sure, but it is true.

 

[B-A-C]

The body can not live without the spirit but the spirit can live without the body.

That simply means they were created at the same instant.

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

If God knows the future, then it's certainly possible He can know everything about someone before they are created.

 

[Bill Taylor]

God "created" man first as a spirit being. Later God "formed" man's "body" (not created) and then placed his spirit man into a physical body.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Until we are in Heaven and Yehovah instructs that it was so I would not debate anything more than the text does not support your theory.

 

[Bill Taylor]

No ot doesn't

When I was a Driver I listened to Scripture and read Scripture. Listening to another read Scripture is not the same level of Heart Involvement as a prayerful study led by the Ruah. You will do well to pray for His understading before any study of His Word.

 

[Butch5]

When I was a Driver I listened to Scripture and read Scripture. Listening to another read Scripture is not the same level of Heart Involvement as a prayerful study led by the Ruah. You will do well to pray for His understading before any study of His Word.

Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else, Bill.

I could also say you would do well to pray for understanding as well. The doctrine is flatly refuted in Scripture. It opposes the words of both Jesus and the apostles, and is based on a Greek philosophical concept. I don't think the Bible is promoting such ideas.

 

[Butch5]

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

The Lord formed man from the dust of the earth. Man consists of the elements of the earth. Notice, Moses didn't say the Lord formed man's body from the dust of the earth. He formed man. Then He breathed something out of Himself and into the man, this was the breath or spirit of life. This is something of God. Man is not the breath or spirit of life, but does have within him the breath of spirit of life. Then we see that these two things combined to form a third, a living soul. The living soul consists of man and the breath or spirit of life from God.

Absolutely nothing here says man is a spirit. The only spirit mentioned here is God's spirit. God created "the man" from the dust of the earth. "The man" consists of the elements of the earth. They are not a coat he puts on. They are who and what he is. God told Adam, 'you are dust.'

 

[B-A-C]

Deut 6:5; "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deut 10:12; "Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deut 11:13; "It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul,
Deut 13:3; you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 30:6; "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Josh 22:5; "Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul."
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Luke 10:27; And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS

I wonder why the Bible separates, heart, soul, and mind. It is interesting that the "mind" is not mentioned in the Old Testament, but it is mentioned by Jesus in the New Testament.

Eccl 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

John 19:30; Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

1Cor 2:11; For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Ezek 18:31; "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Ezek 36:26; "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Eph 4:23; and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

All these verses talk about getting a "new" spirit. None of them mention getting a new body at the same time.

 

[Butch5]

Deut 6:5; "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Deut 10:12; "Now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require from you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
Deut 11:13; "It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul,
Deut 13:3; you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deut 30:6; "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Josh 22:5; "Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul."
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Luke 10:27; And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS

I wonder why the Bible separates, heart, soul, and mind. It is interesting that the "mind" is not mentioned in the Old Testament, but it is mentioned by Jesus in the New Testament.

Eccl 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

John 19:30; Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

1Cor 2:11; For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Ezek 18:31; "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

So, how do we understand those passages in light of what Moses said?

 

[B-A-C]

So, how do we understand those passages in light of what Moses said?

Even Moses separated heart and soul. A surgeon could physically see your heart in your body, but how do they see your spirit?

What is your take on Eccl 12:7; ?

 

[Butch5]

Even Moses separated heart and soul. A surgeon could physically see your heart, but how do they see your spirit?

Spirit and soul are two different words. They don't mean the same thing.

But, we still have to understand those passages in light of what Moses said. Unless we're going to claim Moses was wrong.

Scripture has to agree and harmonize. If it doesn't then there's error. If we believe there is no error in God's word then it must harmonize. There could be errors in translation which would be human errors. There could be errors in understanding also. But, if it doesn't harmonize then the error is ours, not in Scripture. Our goal, should be to harmonize passages of Scripture not pit them against one another.

So how do we harmonize these passages with what Moses said?