What is 'Perfect' or 'Perfection'?

[At Peace]

we are flesh and spirit right now, as long as part of us is flesh I do not see how anyone can be perfect, our spirit helps us overcome the fleshly desires, but it we were perfect we would not even have the fleshy desires. We now struggle between the two and only through Jesus Christ do we have victory over the flesh only through Jesus Christ are the chains of sin broken for those born again, but as long as we are in the flesh we can not even be in the presence of God or we will die because we are all sinful by nature in the flesh.

You should apply the parameters of Romans 6:3-6 to your POV, so you can see where God has made it possible to kill the old man and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...without sin.

Jesus was "flesh and spirit" too, but He lived without sin.
You can't use it as an excuse anymore.

 

[amadeus2]

I am glad, I don't care for presumption...I gave you Bible verses....when perfection comes and imperfection is done away!
Brother, I am sure we would agree that God never changes...in that respect : James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For me, maybe you would say I am presuming but, for me ,and considering the perfection we are talking about is Agape or God's perfection, this requirement in James would be 24 /7.
God looks at us and sees Jesus, not our sin "I will look at heir sin no longer. "Surely for God to consider us sinless, would be a requirement that includes being perfect as long as you live, 24/7. I agree, with God all things are possible...but I have not known any one, such as, Mother Teresa, or Billy Graham, or Martin Luther King or, if you read Romans 7, not even St. Paul was perfect!...Believer striving for perfection of course but sin yes and, not talking about what the Bible calls "deliberate sin"!

If we were not also already perfect, how could we be certain that we would recognize someone how is?

I really, however, do not believe that "perfect" to equal to "sinless". What man usually calls perfect is not how perfect is described in scripture.

A perfect heart is what God desires. We should consider why David is considered the "apple of his eye" or "a man after God's own heart". It is not because he never sinned?

 

[Born Again 2004]

Have you ever thought about living WITHOUT sin?
That is the results of a real repentance from sin...if you are interested.

• Oh yes, and I try real hard but I understand that I still fail and God has provided the ultimate forgiveness in the cross.
• Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.....So, your saying my repentance was not real?...that I don't posses a repentant heart but yours was and you do? Psalm 51:17 The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.
  

 

[Born Again 2004]

Very good question Mr Bear...and very good responses...to which I'll add mine...Be ye perfect...Walk in obedience and be ye, therefore, blameless.

It is not that we are blameless 24/7 the rest of our life but , with Jesus in us, God sees him and credits us with Holiness, Righteousness and Blamelessness!

• Hebrews 8:12 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
• Jeremiah 31:34 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
• Hebrews 10:16-17 16"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the LORD. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

God doesn't say we will sin no more, he says he will look at our sin no more.....big difference!

 

[Dave M]

If we were not also already perfect, how could we be certain that we would recognize someone how is?

I really, however, do not believe that "perfect" to equal to "sinless". What man usually calls perfect is not how perfect is described in scripture.

A perfect heart is what God desires. We should consider why David is considered the "apple of his eye" or "a man after God's own heart". It is not because he never sinned?

well you and me have a very different idea of what perfect looks like then I do believe perfect is sinless. perfect is the glorified bodies we get that don't grow old or become sick or sin that is according to scripture also

I do believe we are made a millions times better once being born again now in the flesh and our hearts are changed, so I think we see things pretty similar, we may just look at the word perfect differently

 

[Dave M]

You should apply the parameters of Romans 6:3-6 to your POV, so you can see where God has made it possible to kill the old man and to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...without sin.

Jesus was "flesh and spirit" too, but He lived without sin.
You can't use it as an excuse anymore.

1 John 1:8-10
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Romans 3:10
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

no where after any of these versus in the bible do I read this is only for people who are not saved,

 

[amadeus2]

well you and me have a very different idea of what perfect looks like then I do believe perfect is sinless. perfect is the glorified bodies we get that don't grow old or become sick or sin that is according to scripture also

I do believe we are made a millions times better once being born again now in the flesh and our hearts are changed, so I think we see things pretty similar, we may just look at the word perfect differently

Perfect is having our heart always toward God even when we occasionally may look away from Him. God does not overlook our looking away, but he is looking to improve us. He knows that we cannot do it ourselves. But if our heart is right then the improvement will be made because He is there. Consider the situation with King David when he had sinned with Uriah and Bathsheba. When he was caught and confronted by the prophet Nathan, David was then ready to take what the law of Moses required, death for murder and death for adultery:

"And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." II Sam 12:13

This was the difference between David and his predecessor, King Saul. Saul had also sinned against God, but Saul tried to justify himself and to blame the people when he failed to kill all of the Amalekites.

David had the perfect heart for the situation. Saul did not.

Consider also Job as we see him here:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

How perfect was Job? For what he had and what he did with what he had he was perfect in the eyes of God. From that verse the Book of Job goes on and the hedge around Job is removed and he goes through hell. God wanted Job to grow and Job did. Was he perfect at the end of the Book? The word, perfect, is not used again but during and after being rebuked, Job says:

"Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further." Job 40:4-5

"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:5-6

And then God blesses Job again. In his heart, a perfect heart at the end Job had pleased God.

Perfection in the eyes of God is doing really the best we can with what we have. God recognizes our frailty and allows us improve and helps us to improve if our heart is pointed in that direction:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

In the end perfect will also be sinless, but we may have some growing to do to get there. Will not God help us is we ask Him or sometimes even if we do not? Does God not love us even more than we have loved our own natural children?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:7-11

 

[At Peace]

• Oh yes, and I try real hard but I understand that I still fail and God has provided the ultimate forgiveness in the cross.
• Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.....So, your saying my repentance was not real?...that I don't posses a repentant heart but yours was and you do? Psalm 51:17 The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.

As the definition of "repent" is..."turn from", or, "change", to do something you have already "turned from" just manifests a lie.
You can't forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

I exhort you to "look for the escapes".

 

[At Peace]

It is not that we are blameless 24/7 the rest of our life but , with Jesus in us, God sees him and credits us with Holiness, Righteousness and Blamelessness!

• Hebrews 8:12 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
• Jeremiah 31:34 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
• Hebrews 10:16-17 16"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the LORD. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

God doesn't say we will sin no more, he says he will look at our sin no more.....big difference!

He does too "say it", in 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Jesus is with no one who commits sin.

 

[At Peace]

1 John 1:8-10
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Thanks for the opportunity to address 1 John 1:8 and 10.

John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.
A...
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
B...
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:10
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Paul's quoting of these OT scriptures was an effort to show the Jews that their attempts at keeping the law of Moses did NOT make them better or less needful of a Redeemer than the Gentiles.
If you think these verses apply to everyone, you must include Jesus too: but we know He was not "unrighteous".

1 John 5:17

All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

The sin that doesn't lead to death is the one you don't do anymore. The one you have REALLY repented of.

no where after any of these versus in the bible do I read this is only for people who are not saved,

As salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement, these exhortations are for all men.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Br. Bear]

Very good question Mr Bear...and very good responses...to which I'll add mine...Be ye perfect...Walk in obedience and be ye, therefore, blameless.

Yes.... Blameless.
I don't think that particular word is ever given too much importance in all our dialogue and doctrine.

Blameless. Sounds almost perfect.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes.... Blameless.
I don't think that particular word is ever given too much importance in all our dialogue and doctrine.

Blameless. Sounds almost perfect.


Bless you ....><>

So does Holy and Righteous, which we are not 24/7 but the one in us is!

 

[B-A-C]

There were of course "blameless" people in the Bible. Apparently it isn't impossible.
I think we sometimes spend a lot of time convincing ourselves it is impossible.

Gen 6:9; These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
2 Chron 15:17; But the high places were not removed from Israel; nevertheless Asa's heart was blameless all his days.
Job 1:1; There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
Job 1:8; The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
Psa 119:1; How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the LORD.
Prov 11:5; The righteousness of the blameless will smooth his way, But the wicked will fall by his own wickedness.
Php 2:15; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
Luke 1:5; In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Noah was blameless, Job was blameless, Asa was blameless, Zacharias and Elizabeth were blameless.
possibly Enoch as well...
Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

If you don't believe you can ever be blameless... you never will be.

 

[At Peace]

So does Holy and Righteous, which we are not 24/7 but the one in us is!

A holy and righteous God will not reside in an unholy unrighteous temple.
We are promised the gift of the Holy Ghost AFTER our "turn from" sin. (Acts 2:38)

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 5:48; "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I wonder if Jesus would tell us to do something that is impossible?
Even if it is impossible for the world, is it impossible for us?

Php 4:13; I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

 

[KingJ]

There were of course "blameless" people in the Bible. Apparently it isn't impossible.
I think we sometimes spend a lot of time convincing ourselves it is impossible.

Gen 6:9; These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
2 Chron 15:17; But the high places were not removed from Israel; nevertheless Asa's heart was blameless all his days.
Job 1:1; There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
Job 1:8; The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
Psa 119:1; How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the LORD.
Prov 11:5; The righteousness of the blameless will smooth his way, But the wicked will fall by his own wickedness.
Php 2:15; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
Luke 1:5; In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Noah was blameless, Job was blameless, Asa was blameless, Zacharias and Elizabeth were blameless.
possibly Enoch as well...
Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

If you don't believe you can ever be blameless... you never will be.

You can be blameless, indeed! For about a day or a week or heck even a month. But not as God is. We are a free will creation. Blameless in that day or today, is not being guilty of prison. Or being guilty of a mortal sin. Blameless by our standards. Blameless by God's standards is however a completely different ball game.

Anyone who says they are perfect like God is a liar and sinning as they say that :rofl:.

Let's not support this new age teaching in the slightest and recognize it for what it is. All new age teaching seems to send us in a direction of being a demigod. Perfect, with powers and no need for God, just space for pride. Me, myself and I...are perfect.. all hail me...who stands among sinners calling themselves Christians....its so hilarious :smile:.

 

[KingJ]

Matt 5:48; "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I wonder if Jesus would tell us to do something that is impossible?
Even if it is impossible for the world, is it impossible for us?

Php 4:13; I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

What is being perfect to God?

If you were hiding Jews from Nazis. Do you lie and protect them or give them up when they come asking?

 

[B-A-C]

If you were hiding Jews from Nazis. Do you lie and protect them or give them up when they come asking?

Oh ye of little faith.

Luke 12:11; "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say;
Luke 12:12; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

 

[KingJ]

Oh ye of little faith.

Luke 12:11; "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say;
Luke 12:12; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

What will the Holy Spirit tell me to say in that moment? We can know what to say right now. We just worry if we will have confidence to say it when the time comes. We know what past saints said before they were martyred. They made a stand for Jesus. This verse is speaking to what our last words will be when they are about to crucify us. They have already decided our fate. It is the words of wisdom 'we will go out with'.

Are you a Christian? Did you make those statements. Yes...this is why...ok crucify him now :wink:.

The scenario with the Jews in my example is a different issue. What is your judgement of me in these three scenarios?:

1. I do not lie and give the Jews up, as they threatened to torture my family.
2. I keep quiet, waiting for some spiritual answer. They torture my family for my silence and search the house, finding and murdering the Jews.
3. I properly hide the Jews. Lie without hesitation. My family is spared, as are the Jews.

If we are going to judge the world (1 Cor 6:2). Do you not think we will consider these kind of scenarios? Of course we will. This is called discernment. A spiritual person / Christian discerns and judges all things 1 Cor 2:15. I judge myself in option 3 as a saint. Option 2 as an ignorant saint. Option 1 as a well meaning but not very smart individual.

If the option was that I alone get tortured and killed for silence (no family involved that could be hurt), then yes, it is a brain dead decision to not lie and accept our fate and wait on God for some words of wisdom.

 

[KingJ]

Another example.

If we are perfect we 'should' score 100% in putting others before ourselves right? Second commandment = Do unto others as you would want done unto you. Not ''do unto others as you do unto 'you' ''. Big difference.

So, if I fall into a lion cage at the zoo. You know that if you jumped in, I could stand on your shoulders and get out. Do you jump in?

I highly doubt you or Peace would jump in. Not for a stranger. No ways. Definitely for a spouse or child. But this random oversized, middle aged man with a hairy chest....haha no way. Lets call for assistance :rofl:.

There are righteous that are .....'''''barely''''.......saved 1 Pet 4:18. This fact needs to sink in! Perhaps some Christians would jump in for a stranger. Not all.