What is the faith once for all delivered to the saints, that heretics attack?

[Dylan569]

Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. (Jude 1:3 NRSV) "The faith" is not in a single denomination, but in the universal church, the body of Christ.

if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1Tim 3:15 NRSV)

and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. (Gal 2:9 NRSV) How do we know who the pillars were after the 1st century? Do research on the history of the church and you'll find such information as -

The legacies of Augustine, Luther, and Calvin are interwoven into the fabric of Western Christianity. Augustine’s theological insights laid essential groundwork for later reformers who challenged established norms within the Church. Luther’s emphasis on faith alone transformed understandings of salvation, while Calvin's systematic theology provided a robust framework for Reformed traditions. Together, these figures not only shaped their own eras but also continue to influence contemporary Christian thought and practice across various denominations today.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? (Matt 7:15-16 NRSV) What are some points of the faith once for all delivered?

Martin Luther in the Bondage of the Will
"Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine Majesty only: for He alone "doth, (as the Psalm sings) what He will in Heaven and earth." (Ps. cxxxv. 6.) Whereas, if it be ascribed unto men, it is not more properly ascribed, than the divinity of God Himself would be ascribed unto them: which would be the greatest of all sacrilege."

"THE question concerning the will and predestination of God, is somewhat difficult. For God wills those same things which He foreknows. And this is the substance of what Paul subjoins, "Who hath resisted His will," if He have mercy on whom He will, and harden whom He will? For if there were a king who could effect whatever he chose, and no one could resist him, he would be said to do whatsoever he willed. So the will of God, as it is the principal cause of all things which take place, seems to impose a necessity on our will."

Calvinism From The Canons of Dort, Exact Quotes
"As all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and are deserving of eternal death, God would have done no injustice by leaving them all to perish, and delivering them over to condemnation on account of sin"
"That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree"
"Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He hath out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from their primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ"
"Election was not founded upon foreseen faith, and the obedience of faith, holiness, or any other good quality or disposition in man, as the prerequisite, cause or condition on which it depended; but men are chosen to faith and to the obedience of faith, holiness, etc.;"
"To those who murmur at the free grace of election and just severity of reprobation, we answer with the apostle: 'Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?'” Rom. 9:20
" that others who are called by the gospel obey the call and are converted is not to be ascribed to the proper exercise of free will, whereby one distinguishes himself above others, equally furnished with grace sufficient for faith and conversions as the proud heresy of Pelagius maintains"

Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith...Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing—for that would be harmful to you. (Heb 13:7, 17 NRSV)

"I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them." (Rom 16:17 RSV)

One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, 'Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.' This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, instead of giving heed to Jewish myths or to commands of men who reject the truth. (Titus 1:12-14 RSV)

I've posted just a few points that Luther and Calvin, acknowledged pillars, have made in their writings on the Holy Bible.

 

[Rhema]

 

[Dylan569]

Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. (Jude 1:3 NRSV) "The faith" is not in a single denomination, but in the universal church, the body of Christ.

if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1Tim 3:15 NRSV)

and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. (Gal 2:9 NRSV) How do we know who the pillars were after the 1st century? Do research on the history of the church and you'll find such information as -

The legacies of Augustine, Luther, and Calvin are interwoven into the fabric of Western Christianity. Augustine’s theological insights laid essential groundwork for later reformers who challenged established norms within the Church. Luther’s emphasis on faith alone transformed understandings of salvation, while Calvin's systematic theology provided a robust framework for Reformed traditions. Together, these figures not only shaped their own eras but also continue to influence contemporary Christian thought and practice across various denominations today.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? (Matt 7:15-16 NRSV) What are some points of the faith once for all delivered?

Martin Luther in the Bondage of the Will
"Free-will is plainly a divine term, and can be applicable to none but the divine Majesty only: for He alone "doth, (as the Psalm sings) what He will in Heaven and earth." (Ps. cxxxv. 6.) Whereas, if it be ascribed unto men, it is not more properly ascribed, than the divinity of God Himself would be ascribed unto them: which would be the greatest of all sacrilege."

"THE question concerning the will and predestination of God, is somewhat difficult. For God wills those same things which He foreknows. And this is the substance of what Paul subjoins, "Who hath resisted His will," if He have mercy on whom He will, and harden whom He will? For if there were a king who could effect whatever he chose, and no one could resist him, he would be said to do whatsoever he willed. So the will of God, as it is the principal cause of all things which take place, seems to impose a necessity on our will."

Calvinism From The Canons of Dort, Exact Quotes
"As all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and are deserving of eternal death, God would have done no injustice by leaving them all to perish, and delivering them over to condemnation on account of sin"
"That some receive the gift of faith from God and others do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree"
"Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He hath out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from their primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ"
"Election was not founded upon foreseen faith, and the obedience of faith, holiness, or any other good quality or disposition in man, as the prerequisite, cause or condition on which it depended; but men are chosen to faith and to the obedience of faith, holiness, etc.;"
"To those who murmur at the free grace of election and just severity of reprobation, we answer with the apostle: 'Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?'” Rom. 9:20
" that others who are called by the gospel obey the call and are converted is not to be ascribed to the proper exercise of free will, whereby one distinguishes himself above others, equally furnished with grace sufficient for faith and conversions as the proud heresy of Pelagius maintains"

Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you; consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith...Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing—for that would be harmful to you. (Heb 13:7, 17 NRSV)

"I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them." (Rom 16:17 RSV)

One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, 'Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.' This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, instead of giving heed to Jewish myths or to commands of men who reject the truth. (Titus 1:12-14 RSV)

I've posted just a few points that Luther and Calvin, acknowledged pillars, have made in their writings on the Holy Bible.

When I began to question the beliefs I'd been taught in my early years, the 1970s, I began my research into the Faith of Christ. Since the US has been so blessed of God, I decided to examine the Confessions of the main church denominations existing in America at its founding. I was amazed at how closely they aligned in their belief on predestination or election. Here are statements of representative confessions that I began to study, as I compared them with the Holy Scriptures:

39 Articles of Faith, 1571 AD - Church of England, Anglican, Episcopal
XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

Formula of Concord, 1577 AD - Lutheran
The predestination or eternal election of God, however, extends only over the godly, beloved children of God, being a cause of their salvation, which He also provides, as well as disposes what belongs thereto. Upon this [predestination of God] our salvation is founded so firmly that the gates of hell cannot overcome it. John 10:28; Matt. 16:18. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

First London Confession of Faith 1644/1646 AD - Baptist
God had decreed in Himself, before the world was, concerning all things, whether necessary, accidental or voluntary, with all the circumstances of them, to work, dispose, and bring about all things according to the counsel of His own will, to His glory: (Yet without being the author of sin, or having fellowship with any therein) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, unchangeableness, power, and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree: And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice.

Westminster Confession of Faith 1647 AD - Prebyterian
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. *The 1689 Confession of Faith of Baptists pretty much a copy of the Westminster, with Baptist differences.

The Methodist Church in America was established on February 28, 1784 by John Wesley. This was the first denomination to adopt Arminianism and it did not appear until 8 years after the adoption of the American Declaration of Independence in 1776. Because the Methodists did not appear for over 100 years after the Confessions of the Protestant Reformation, and after 1776, I have not quoted their beliefs. Much later, the Pentecostal movement that adopted Arminianism, began to appear around 1901 and then began to spread after the Azusa Street Revival of 1906. They were largely influenced by the Wesleyan and Holiness groups.

 

[B-A-C]

I see a lot of man made doctrine here, but very little scripture. Instead of man's doctrines, we should use the Bible
to support our beliefs and doctrines.

Also for the record Quakers and Shakers would consider themselves Pentecostals well before 1901.

The Spiritual Similarities of Quaker Silence and Pentecostal Glossolalia in Worship – Quaker Theology

A Pentecostal Quaker’s Spiritual Journey

Reaching across race and faith to find fellowship.

www.friendsjournal.org

I see a lot of doctrine from the Anglican/Presbyterian/CoE here, also some Lutheran.
These are the denominations that accept Gay clergy and perform gay marriages. Once you start off incorrectly
with the foundation, everything else just seems to follow downhill from there.

 

[Dylan569]

I see a lot of man made doctrine here, but very little scripture. Instead of man's doctrines, we should use the Bible
to support our beliefs and doctrines.

Also for the record Quakers and Shakers would consider themselves Pentecostals well before 1901.

The Spiritual Similarities of Quaker Silence and Pentecostal Glossolalia in Worship – Quaker Theology

A Pentecostal Quaker’s Spiritual Journey

Reaching across race and faith to find fellowship.

www.friendsjournal.org

I see a lot of doctrine from the Anglican/Presbyterian/CoE here, also some Lutheran.
These are the denominations that accept Gay clergy and perform gay marriages. Once you start off incorrectly
with the foundation, everything else just seems to follow downhill from there.

I saw no reason to include source texts because I find it hard to find anyone on this forum who believes the Bible. But, since you commented on it, I'll give the passage from the Baptist Confession that I hold to, the 1646 First London, and you can read the Scriptures upon which it is based:

God had decreed in Himself, before the world was, concerning all things, whether necessary, accidental or voluntary, with all the circumstances of them, to work, dispose, and bring about all things according to the counsel of His own will, to His glory: (Yet without being the author of sin, or having fellowship with any therein) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, unchangeableness, power, and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree: And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice.

Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Ps. 115:3; 135:6, 33:15; 1 Sam. 10:9, 26, Prov. 21:6; Exod. 21:13; Prov. 16:33, Ps. 144, Isa. 45:7, Jer. 14:22, Matt. 6:28, 30; Col. 1:16, 17; Num. 23:19, 20; Rom. 3:4; Jer. 10:10; Eph. 1:4,5; Jude 4, 6; Prov. 16:4.

First London Confession of 1646 | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

You have made a broad statement that is not at all true in the original denominations as represented by their Confessions of Faith. There are those today remaining true to the historic standards in their church history.

The Anglican Church in North America does NOT ordain gays or perform gay marriages.
The Presbyterian Church in America and the Orthodox Presbyterians neither do so.
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod likewise does not.
The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod does not.
The Church of England is just one among many in the Anglican Communion:

https://www.anglicancommunion.org/structures/member-churches.aspx

When it comes to the Quakers, there no semblance of a standard of belief as can be seen in the Wikipedia article:

Quakers - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How anyone can figure out what the Society of Friends believe is beyond me. It appears to be 'do your own thing'.

 

[B-A-C]

The Anglican Church in North America does NOT ordain gays or perform gay marriages.
The Presbyterian Church in America and the Orthodox Presbyterians neither do so.
The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod likewise does not.
The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod does not.
The Church of England is just one among many in the Anglican Communion:

I do agree with you on the Missouri Synod Lutheran. However the ELCA ( Evangelical Lutheran ) does.

Resources for the LGBTQIA+ Community

www.elca.org

As for the Anglican church in the US, the ACNA does not, however...

Sexuality and Identity: A Pastoral Statement from the College of Bishops - The Anglican Church in North America

January 2021 Preamble The Bishops of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) offer this pastoral statement to the Church after prayer, study, careful listen

anglicanchurch.net

The Anglican Communion has deep differences over homosexuality – but a process of dialogue, known as ‘via media,’ has helped hold contradictory beliefs together

(The Conversation) — With over 80 million believers in 160 countries, the Anglican Communion has been grappling with LGBTQ+ issues since the 1970s.

religionnews.com

.. and the Episcopal church.

LGBTQ+

In the first century, Jesus of Nazareth inspired a movement. A community of people whose lives were centered on Jesus Christ and committed to living the way of God’s unconditional, […]

www.episcopalchurch.org

The Anglican church.

Stand-alone church services for same-sex couples ‘before too long’ says bishop - Anglican Mainstream

by Francis Martin, Church Times: Decision yet to be made about allowing clergy to enter same-sex civil marriages. GROUPS working on the Living in Love and Faith (LLF) process met in Leicester last weekend to discuss next steps in the introduction of stand-alone services, and the provision of...

anglicanmainstream.org

 

[Dylan569]

When I began to question the beliefs I'd been taught in my early years, the 1970s, I began my research into the Faith of Christ. Since the US has been so blessed of God, I decided to examine the Confessions of the main church denominations existing in America at its founding. I was amazed at how closely they aligned in their belief on predestination or election. Here are statements of representative confessions that I began to study, as I compared them with the Holy Scriptures:

39 Articles of Faith, 1571 AD - Church of England, Anglican, Episcopal
XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

Formula of Concord, 1577 AD - Lutheran
The predestination or eternal election of God, however, extends only over the godly, beloved children of God, being a cause of their salvation, which He also provides, as well as disposes what belongs thereto. Upon this [predestination of God] our salvation is founded so firmly that the gates of hell cannot overcome it. John 10:28; Matt. 16:18. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

First London Confession of Faith 1644/1646 AD - Baptist
God had decreed in Himself, before the world was, concerning all things, whether necessary, accidental or voluntary, with all the circumstances of them, to work, dispose, and bring about all things according to the counsel of His own will, to His glory: (Yet without being the author of sin, or having fellowship with any therein) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, unchangeableness, power, and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree: And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice.

Westminster Confession of Faith 1647 AD - Prebyterian
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. *The 1689 Confession of Faith of Baptists pretty much a copy of the Westminster, with Baptist differences.

The Methodist Church in America was established on February 28, 1784 by John Wesley. This was the first denomination to adopt Arminianism and it did not appear until 8 years after the adoption of the American Declaration of Independence in 1776. Because the Methodists did not appear for over 100 years after the Confessions of the Protestant Reformation, and after 1776, I have not quoted their beliefs. Much later, the Pentecostal movement that adopted Arminianism, began to appear around 1901 and then began to spread after the Azusa Street Revival of 1906. They were largely influenced by the Wesleyan and Holiness groups.

Reading the writings of many on this forum, I wonder what god they worship. They deny emphatically the scriptures on the sovereignty of God over all things, including those who He chose before the creation, to be holy and blameless. I read that I was short on scripture, so here are some:

Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Ps 135:6 NRSV)

When that period was over, I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me. I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored the one who lives forever. For his sovereignty is an everlasting sovereignty, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, “What are you doing?” (Dan 4:34-35 NRSV)

The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. (Ps 33:10-11 NRSV)

But he stands alone and who can dissuade him? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13 NRSV)

remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, “My purpose shall stand, and I will fulfill my intention,” calling a bird of prey from the east, the man for my purpose from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have planned, and I will do it. (Isa 46:9-11 NRSV)

The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1Sam 2:6 NRSV)

In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, (Eph 1:11 NRSV)

this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law. (Acts 2:23 NRSV)

In this way God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, that his Messiah would suffer. (Acts 3:18 NRSV)

For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28 NRSV)

“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:11 NRSV)

just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. (Eph 1:4 NRSV)*chosen to be holy, not because they were so

We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. (2Thess 2:13 REB)

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (Rev 13:8 RSV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers. (Acts 13:48 NRSV)

who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (2Tim 1:9 NRSV)

Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; ...No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. (John 6:37, 44 NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue,...So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (Rom 9:11, 18 NRSV)

since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. (John 17:2 NRSV)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

God gave a warning to those who think they can bring God down to their level and judge him!
But to the wicked God says: ...These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one just like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you. “Mark this, then, you who forget God, or I will tear you apart, and there will be no one to deliver. (Ps 50:21-22 NRSV)

 

[Rhema]

I see a lot of doctrine from the Anglican/Presbyterian/CoE here, also some Lutheran.

He forgot the Moravians...

 

[Rhema]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod likewise does not.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America does, the largest Lutheran denomination with 2.79 million baptized members in 8,498 congregations. (Ahhh... I see @B-A-C has pointed this out.)

But, since you commented on it, I'll give the passage from the Baptist Confession that I hold to, the 1646 First London

Oh My, it only took God one thousand six hundred and ten years to figure it out.

I read that I was short on scripture, so here are some:

just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. (Eph 1:4 NRSV)*chosen to be holy, not because they were so

I've always found it fascinating that people think "before" means "prior to" in time, rather than "in front of" a location or object. Especially when "Foundation" is an object, and not "Founding" to mean a verbal event. The text does not say, "prior to the founding of the world." Was not our selection in front of the Foundation? And ask yourself, who is the Foundation of our faith?

And did you ever ask yourself why the NRSV changed the words from "in him" to "in Christ"??
Both TR and NA27 - καθως εξελεξατο ημας εν αυτω

All those books !!! and yet you never seem to look at things directly for yourself.

We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. (2Thess 2:13 REB)

2 Thessalonians 2:13 Greek

οτι (IN THAT) ειλετο (TOOK WITH THE HAND) υμας (YOU) ο (THE) θεος (GOD) απαρχην (FIRST-FRUITS) εις (INTO) σωτηριαν (SALVATION) εν (IN) αγιασμω (HOLINESS) πνευματος (OF SPIRIT) και (AND) πιστει (BELIEF) αληθειας (OF the TRUTH)​

So you selected the REB here since it conforms to your bias. Interesting. Every other scripture reference you made used the NRSV. NINETEEN references to the NRSV, until that single verse. But I can see why you hate the NRSV for that verse.

But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:13 NRSV)

You really can't see the hypocrisy in that sleight of hand?

I'd address the rest, but your belief is so ossified.

It was almost 50 years ago when I came to realize that using a Study Bible was only giving a man or men's opinions.

And yet...

When I began to question the beliefs I'd been taught in my early years, the 1970s, I began my research into the Faith of Christ. Since the US has been so blessed of God, I decided to examine the Confessions of the main church denominations existing in America at its founding.

You don't think those Confessions only give a man or men's opinions?

It became clear that men have biases, prejudices, and are not infallible. So to solve this problem, I ordered a small Cambridge Bible with text only, no maps, notes, introductions or any ideas of man other than the KJV translators

I think I see the (unsolved) problem here.... ... why would the KJV translators be free of biases and prejudices than any others, especially when their work was done under threat of excommunication by the King ??

Sometimes, Dylan, you make contradictory statements that are just perplexing.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Dylan569]

Reading the writings of many on this forum, I wonder what god they worship. They deny emphatically the scriptures on the sovereignty of God over all things, including those who He chose before the creation, to be holy and blameless. I read that I was short on scripture, so here are some:

Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Ps 135:6 NRSV)

When that period was over, I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me. I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored the one who lives forever. For his sovereignty is an everlasting sovereignty, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, “What are you doing?” (Dan 4:34-35 NRSV)

The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. (Ps 33:10-11 NRSV)

But he stands alone and who can dissuade him? What he desires, that he does. (Job 23:13 NRSV)

remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, “My purpose shall stand, and I will fulfill my intention,” calling a bird of prey from the east, the man for my purpose from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have planned, and I will do it. (Isa 46:9-11 NRSV)

The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1Sam 2:6 NRSV)

In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, (Eph 1:11 NRSV)

this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law. (Acts 2:23 NRSV)

In this way God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, that his Messiah would suffer. (Acts 3:18 NRSV)

For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Acts 4:27-28 NRSV)

“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.” (Rev 4:11 NRSV)

just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. (Eph 1:4 NRSV)*chosen to be holy, not because they were so

We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. (2Thess 2:13 REB)

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (Rev 13:8 RSV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers. (Acts 13:48 NRSV)

who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (2Tim 1:9 NRSV)

Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; ...No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day. (John 6:37, 44 NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue,...So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (Rom 9:11, 18 NRSV)

since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. (John 17:2 NRSV)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

God gave a warning to those who think they can bring God down to their level and judge him!
But to the wicked God says: ...These things you have done and I have been silent; you thought that I was one just like yourself. But now I rebuke you, and lay the charge before you. “Mark this, then, you who forget God, or I will tear you apart, and there will be no one to deliver. (Ps 50:21-22 NRSV)

There is the cafeteria type Bible believer, who picks out the verses that seem to support what he wishes to believe, and then ignores and/or rejects those verses that clearly deny what he believes. This forum is full of some who are the cafeteria type believer.

There are some cafeteria type believers on here, after reading what they write, I wonder how they can be reborn, regenerated persons at all. You can't claim to believe the Bible if you only believe the parts that suit you. Too often, the verses they claim to believe do not actually state what they believe, they read their own ideas into the verse. There is a passage I should have put in this list -

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:22-24 NRSV)

 

[B-A-C]

God wants everyone to be saved.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But He gives people the free will to accept or reject Him as they choose.

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:22-24 NRSV)

No doubt God has plans both at a personal level and a global level, also I don't doubt He controls some events.
But that doesn't mean He makes choices for people.

Everyone is called, every human is predestined to be saved. Every human was chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved, but some won't be... because of free will.

Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

1Thes 4:8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

People can resist God and the Holy Spirit if they really want to.

There are some cafeteria type believers on here

Would those be the people who reject these verses?

Jdg 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdg 2:13 So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.

Jdg 10:6 Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.

1Kin 9:9 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"

2Kin 21:22 So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.

2Chron 7:22 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"

 

[Garee]

Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. (Jude 1:3 NRSV) "The faith" is not in a single denomination, but in the universal church, the body of Christ.

if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (1Tim 3:15 NRSV)

and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. (Gal 2:9 NRSV) How do we know who the pillars were after the 1st century? Do research on the history of the church and you'll find such information as

I would offer.

The living abiding word of God is the final spiritual authority in matters of faith the unseen things of Christ .

We can preach he alone is the one good infalible teaching master.

John 14 , He comforts, guides teaches and last but not least he brings to our memory the former thing he has taught and memory of each other

The believers hard drive. GPS

I would offer like many words they have two meanings. Literal seen and spiritual not seen Satan would make it all one in the same to destroy faith ( trusting God not seen)

The father of lies has no spiritual insight he is not subject to the gospel. It is why he asked Jesus if he was the Son of God. . I will give you all what the eyes see .Satan revealing has no faith as it is written needed to believe.

Three times as it The faithfulness of Christ as it is written again and again

One kind to represent the temporal historical things seen and the other the unseen spiritual things .Like in "without parable Christ spoke not". The two must be mixed if we are to find the mystery of faith (parable )

As a Parable. The church can plant the incorruptible born again seed and another water it with the water of the living word . . doctrines that fall like rain .

But if any growth Christ alone has faith or labor of love to bring new life . The alternative puff up venerate the apostles above all things writen in the law and prophets.

It is God who has a powerful enough "let there be faith". In that way believers can contend for the faith Christ working in us protecting us as it is writen. It protects us . We care for the living sword of the Spirit the defender of faith .Not from our own. faithless . . no power to believe. . dead works . .

1 Corinthians 3And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?;For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?;Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?;I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Apostles sent messengers as nothing. . dying flesh

1 Corinthians 4: 6-7 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

The church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Not the foundation of God's truth His living word.

Faith" the powerful labor of Christ's faithful love. He freely gives us little powerful Faith calling us ye of little faith (power) Plenty to please Him

1 Corinthians 2: 11For what man knoweth the things (faith) of a man, save the spirit (unseen) of man which is in him? even so the things(faith) of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Why does it seem to be a diffficulty to believe God needs "Let there be"understanding (faith)

Two kinds of faith.

 

[B-A-C]

Even those who God chooses for a purpose aren't necessarily saved just because He chose them.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
So then how do you know you are saved? A lot of Christians "think" they are.
I'm sure Judas thought he was for a couple of years.
1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 12:15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Matt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are people currently "in the kingdom" that will be removed.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

There are some who never believe. There are some who "believe for a while". There are even some who believe long enough to start to produce fruit, ( which they couldn't do without Jesus the true-vine ) but that fruit never matures.

Matt 25:8 "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Matt 25:9 "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
Matt 25:10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

There are people with oil in their lamps today, but that doesn't mean they will tomorrow, or next week, or next year.

This is just a very brief sample, the Bible has dozens and dozens of similar verses and passages.

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 13:6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Now why would Jesus come expecting to find fruit on this tree, if He knows the tree can't bear fruit without the true-vine?
Some trees refuse to bear fruit even with Jesus Himself fertilizing and watering them.

Matt 25:23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are servants in Jesus's house, that He has given resources and talents to, who are not using them for God.
They will be thrown out of His house, just like the tree above will be cut down out of His garden.
Both will be thrown into the fire.

Matt 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

..again, just a few more samples. But there are dozens more.

 

[Dylan569]

God wants everyone to be saved.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But He gives people the free will to accept or reject Him as they choose.



No doubt God has plans both at a personal level and a global level, also I don't doubt He controls some events.
But that doesn't mean He makes choices for people.

Everyone is called, every human is predestined to be saved. Every human was chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved, but some won't be... because of free will.

Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

1Thes 4:8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

People can resist God and the Holy Spirit if they really want to.



Would those be the people who reject these verses?

Jdg 2:12 and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdg 2:13 So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.

Jdg 10:6 Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.

1Kin 9:9 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"

2Kin 21:22 So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.

2Chron 7:22 "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"

Looking at your very first response on this reply is the first step you take in your cafeteria type religion:

"God wants everyone to be saved.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Consider the verses I quoted:

Whatever the LORD pleases he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. (Ps 135:6 NRSV)

"But he stands alone and who can dissuade him? What he desires, that he does." (Job 23:13 NRSV)

"When that period was over, I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me. I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored the one who lives forever. For his sovereignty is an everlasting sovereignty, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does what he wills with the host of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. There is no one who can stay his hand or say to him, “What are you doing?” (Dan 4:34-35 NRSV)

According to the preceding, if God wills something, it happens, he does it! You are no doubt going to come back with that "free will" farce, but man is dead in sins. We all lost true free will with Adam's sin; called original sin, and Martin Luther wrote a detailed book called "Bondage of the Will" disproving free will:

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." (Eph 2:1-10 NRSV)

Man is in bondage to the prince of the power of the air and to his fallen nature:

"...correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will." (2Tim 2:25-26 NRSV)

The "devil" is the immediate antecedent, so it applies to him. It makes no sense hop over the devil, and into the preceding verse in order to make it apply to God.

People post those as you have BAC, but you do not even attempt to prove that "all" , or "all men" mean every person in the world without exception. If God wishes all to be saved, all will be saved. But, the "all" refers to the elect of God who WILL BE saved.

In 1 Tim. 2:3,4; the context refers to all categories of men. Verses 1 and 2 preceding your passage read:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity." (1Tim 2:1-2 NRSV)

I just skimmed the rest of your post where you wrote things out of your own mind that you read into the Bible trying to refute the clear statements of the scriptures themselves. You next wrote:

"No doubt God has plans both at a personal level and a global level, also I don't doubt He controls some events." Personal and global? Nonsense. Then you think God only controls "some events"? You had better reread my post.

 

[Dylan569]

Luke 13:6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Now why would Jesus come expecting to find fruit on this tree, if He knows the tree can't bear fruit without the true-vine?
Some trees refuse to bear fruit even with Jesus Himself fertilizing and watering them.

Matt 25:23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24 "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are servants in Jesus's house, that He has given resources and talents to, who are not using them for God.
They will be thrown out of His house, just like the tree above will be cut down out of His garden.
Both will be thrown into the fire.

Matt 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

..again, just a few more samples. But there are dozens more.

You continue to post verses you think contradict the verses I displayed. You read into them what you wish to believe, and do not refute the verses I put up. A typical cafeteria belief system. You ignore the fact that God as both a will of decree and a will of precept. God gives commands that are precepts. Sinful man will ignore those commands, unless God gives the new birth. The reprobate says "will not" and the elect obey:

"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29 KJV) *The secret things include those he has written into the Lambs book of life, holding the names of the elect, the chosen ones of God.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil 2:13 KJV)

 

[Curtis]

religion:

"God wants everyone to be saved.

Are you trying to say that God who desires all men to be saved evil?

 

[Rhema]

There is the cafeteria type Bible believer, who picks out the verses that seem to support what he wishes to believe, and then ignores and/or rejects those verses that clearly deny what he believes.

Dylan, look... this is exactly what YOU just did. But instead of verses, you did it with translations.

In post #7 you replied with 21 (Twenty One !!!) scripture verses.

I read that I was short on scripture, so here are some:

ALL but two used the NRSV, and then, YOU went and cherry picked !!! (How naughty....you cafeteria type Bible believer, who picks out the translations that seem to support what you wish to believe.)

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (Rev 13:8 RSV)

Why not the Revised Version? Or even the Young's Literal? Bishops? Douay-Rheims? Geneva?

And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world. ​

(Revelation 13:8 RV)

And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;​

(Revelation 13:8 YLT)

And al yt dwel vpon the earth, worshipped him whose names are not writte in the booke of lyfe of ye lambe, which was killed from the beginnyng of the world.​

(Revelation 13:8 Bishops)

And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning of the world.​

(Revelation 13:8 DRB)

Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth, shall worship him, whose names are not written in the booke of life of that Lambe, which was slaine from the beginning of the world.​

(Revelation 13:8 Geneva)

Why not? Because they don't support what you wish to believe.

You even had to reject the King James...

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ​

(Revelation 13:8 KJV)

It's stupid hypocrisy to condemn others for what you yourself are doing.

Concerned,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

There is the cafeteria type Bible believer, who picks out the verses that seem to support what he wishes to believe, and then ignores and/or rejects those verses that clearly deny what he believes. This forum is full of some who are the cafeteria type believer.

Which includes yourself (as I have shown). But this verse still needs to be addressed.

We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. (2Thess 2:13 REB)

I've shown why you had to cherry pick the REB over the NRSV that you quoted 19 (nineteen) times...

But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.​

(2 Thessalonians 2:13 NRSV)

No, "from the beginning of time" found there, nor in the Douay Rheims Bible. (And I already posted the Greek Interlinear.)

But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth:​

(2 Thessalonians 2:13 DRB)

You can't claim to believe the Bible if you only believe the parts that suit you.

You can't claim to believe the Bible if you only believe the translations that suit you.

It's stupid hypocrisy to condemn others for being a "cafeteria type believer" when you yourself are also one.

Still Concerned,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

There is a passage I should have put in this list -

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:22-24 NRSV)

Yes, but would you listen?

You believe Jesus is God, do you not? So what if Jesus, "endured with much patience the G4632 tools of G3709 anger (the tools of torture, i.e. the cross); and what if he (Jesus) has done so in order to manifest the riches of his glory, UPON (επι) the G4632 tools of mercy those things (R-AP Neuter) he prepared for glory"?

What are the tools of mercy? ... Love, prayer, evangelism, kindness, the teachings of Jesus, and finally, the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Those are the tools he prepared for glory.

Kindly,
Rhema



@B-A-C @Christ4Ever @Charlie24 @KingJ