Who goes through the tribulation?

[B-A-C]

It seems everyone has an opinion or thought on this. The answer seems obvious to everyone, and yet, it seems everyone's answer is different.

Dan 10:14; "Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future."

What does "your people" mean here? Only the Jews?

Dan 12:1; "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:2; "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Two things almost all Christians agree will happen, the question is the timing of it all.

Dan 12:9; He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

Matt 24:9; "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

"will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you". Who is who here? Who is doing the delivering, and who are the deliverees?
Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Matt 24:11; "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt 24:12; "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Matt 24:13; "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

"the one who endures to the end". The end of what?

Matt 24:19; "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt 24:20; "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
A very controversial passage. It says here... this time "will be a great tribulation", such has never occurred since the beginning of the world, and never will occur again.
It also says "but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short".
Who are the elect? Why are they still on the Earth during this tribulation?
Matt 24:23; "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:25; "Behold, I have told you in advance.

If anyone tells you Jesus is here, Jesus is there, Jesus has already come before this time... don't believe them. They will mislead "many".

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

"immediately "AFTER" the tribulation, Jesus will send forth His angels to gather up the elect. It would seem if you aren't one of the elect, you won't be gathered up.

 

[B-A-C]

Mark says much the same thing as Matthew above...

Mark 13:18; "But pray that it may not happen in the winter.
Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:21; "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Again, we see this will the "time of tribulation such has not occurred since the beginning" of the world.
Again, we see the days will shorted "for the sake of the elect". Why are the elect still here during this time? Who are the elect?

...and again, just like in Matthew....

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

... "after the tribulation" ( not before ) Jesus will send His angels down to gather up the "elect". Why are the elect still on the Earth? Who are they?
Will you ever be "gathered up" if you aren't one of the elect? Is there scripture to support this?

 

[B-A-C]

1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Is this a different rapture? Is there more than one rapture? Is this a rapture for the "non-elect"? ..or... is the same rapture in Matthew and Mark, with the same trumpet blowing? ( Matt 24:31; )

 

[B-A-C]

Some say there will be a great revival the day after the rapture.. and many people will get saved. I suppose it's possible, but is that what the Bible says?

Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

It seems the vast majority of people in the tribulation "will not repent" and turn to God. So then are these people who get saved after the tribulation starts, or are they Christians who were already saved before the tribulation started?
( I'm not saying no one will be saved during the tribulation, but it appears most people will not ).

Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Why are there still "saints" around on the Earth when the beast is ruling? It seems the beast will be able to "overcome" the saints during this time, whatever that means.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and races and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Who are these people from every nation, every race of people, every language? They are wearing white robes. Where did they come from? ( We find out below )

Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15; "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

If not many people repent during the tribulation, why is there a "great multitude which no one could count" ( presumably a lot of people ) coming out of the great tribulation?
Also some people believe only the Jews will go through the tribulation - I don't see this in scripture anywhere, but if this was true, why would people from "every nation and race" come out of the tribulation?

This kind of brings up something - a different topic, but surely related... The passage below is about how Jesus pulled the Gentiles into fellowship with the Jews.
The two groups of people, have now become one group. There isn't different dispensations. Everyone gets saved the same way, by the same rules.

Eph 2:11; Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
Eph 2:12; remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13; But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14; For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph 2:15; by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Eph 2:16; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Eph 2:17; AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
Eph 2:18; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19; So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20; having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Eph 2:21; in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22; in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Neh 13:3; So when they heard the law, they excluded all foreigners from Israel.
Act 10:28; And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

Under old testament Law, the Jews were not supposed to associate with Gentiles ( foreigners ). But in Acts 10, and Eph 2, Jesus changes all of that. So then, what does all this have to do with the tribulation?
Simply this... God doesn't see Jews and Gentiles as two different groups who have to jump through different hoops in order to be saved. One group doesn't go through the tribulation, and the other group does not,
simply because of race.

Acts 10:34; Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Acts 10:35; but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 9:3; Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4; They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Rev 9:5; And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.
Rev 9:6; And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

A lot of people are worried that just because some Christians will have to go through the tribulation, that they will also have to face the plagues.
But that doesn't seem to be the case. Christians will be spared and protected from at least some of the plagues.

 

[Sue D.]

Lots of information. There is only one rapture. It will happen in the twinkling of an eye. The dead in christ will rise first and then those who are alive at that time will follow them up.
And there's a difference between the usual time of trials and tribulations that people experience and the 7 yrs of tribulation and the last 3 1/2 which is the Great Tribulation.
And there are going to be 144,000 jews sealed to be protected and evangelize the unrepentant Jews. There are Messianic Jews. These who have accepted Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah. My understanding is that since the Jews are God's chosen people -- they are the only people who are given a second chance to accept Him and they all will.

Everyone who has heard the gospel unto salvation and choose to reject will be left here at rhe time of the rapture. They will assume that something else happened.
Those who are still here but are too young to understand, well they might go up as well.

The timing Of the 7 yrs has been the question. Before everything bad happens would make sense. Why would born-again believers have to endure God's wrath.

 

[Sue D.]

Why would some Christians have to go through the tribulation?!

You're talking about the 5th trumpet in Revelation .

 

[B-A-C]

Why would born-again believers have to endure God's wrath.

According to post #6, some won't.

But there are a number of different answers.

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rom 5:3; And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Eph 3:13; Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
2Thes 1:4; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

 

[B-A-C]

Another thing almost everyone agrees on.... the dead "sleeping" saints/Christians will rise up before the alive "awake" Christians do. However the non-Christians appear to be resurrected later.

Dan 12:2; "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

So we see both the righteous and the wicked get resurrected, but not at the same time.

.. but again, when does all this happen? All the verses below come from John.
John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

....which brings up the obvious question... when is the "last day"? Last day of what? Obviously it's not the end of time, perhaps the end of the age. It may not be a literal 24 hour day.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

There's that trumpet again.
if you believe in logical progression, then it goes something like this.... the dead Christians will be raised up first, and the alive Christians go up immediately afterward.
All of this will happen in an instant, a moment, a twinkling of an eye. Apparently very quickly, like a split second or so. But then here is where it's gets tricky.
Now it seems that 'ALL' the dead saints/Christians since the beginning of time will be raised at this moment. It doesn't matter what race or age they are, they all get resurrected
at the same time. Immediately after this, 'ALL' the alive saints/Christians will be gathered up also. Again, I see no indication of age or race or difference for anyone.
The saved Gentiles and saved Jews all go up the same time. ( depending on whether you are already dead or not ).
The unsaved get raised up later.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Apparently 1,000 years later?

Rev 20:11; Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I always thought the great white throne judgment would be in heaven. But it says here in verse 11 above, that earth and heaven fled away from the throne. So apparently it's somewhere else besides earth or heaven.

 

[Beetow]

Rev 16:17-18 predicts a global earthquake so powerful on the Richter scale that
cities all over the world will collapse at once.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was demolished
by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a few acres of New York City. Just
imagine the body count when all of Manhattan comes down at once. along with
other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Mexico City, Paris, Moscow,
Beijing, Tokyo, et al. The carnage will be beyond belief; and a great many of the
dead will be infants and underage children.

The Bible says that we should consider not only God's benevolence, but also His
severity. (Rom 11:22) We're dealing with a someone in control far more terrifying
than even the tyrants of North Korea, Communist China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran,
and the awful regimes in Africa.

● Heb 12:29 . . For our God is a consuming fire.

That's a quote from Deut 4:24 which, in context, doesn't describe God's physical
characteristics, rather, it's a figure of speech illustrating rage: defined by Webster's
as violent and uncontrolled anger. It's hard to imagine Christianity's divine patron
ticked off to that extent, but there it is.

* A consuming fire is one that cannot be extinguished, i.e. once it gets going,
there's no stopping till all that's aflame is utterly destroyed, viz: an unquenchable
conflagration.
_

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- per your # 11. What is so confusing about All born-again believers will be raised raised. 1st the dead and then those alive at that time. All believers no matter what color they are. Do you think the rapture is only for Caucasian born-again believers?!

 

[Sue D.]

Seems that you're making something more than intended.

 

[Beetow]

per your # 11. Do you think the rapture is only for Caucasian born-again
believers?!

I haven't the foggiest notion how your inquiry is even remotely relative to post
No.11
_

 

[Sue D.]

Sorry-- it was B.-A -C 's post 10.

 

[Beetow]

● Rev 6:12 . . I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.
The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned
blood red

Astronomically, that depicts a solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse simultaneously;
which nature by itself cannot produce due to specific alignment requirements.

● Rev 6:13 . . and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree
when shaken by a strong wind.

Those will likely be shooting stars (a.k.a. meteors) and possibly asteroids too,
rather than solar bodies like Polaris, Sirius, Betelgeuse, and/or Rigel which would
cause impacts that the Earth simply cannot accommodate due to its Lilliputian size
compared to the mass of those gargantuan objects.

● Rev 6:14a . .The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up

Whether that pertains to the entire cosmos or limited to the Earth's atmosphere is
uncertain, although it does seem a preview of Rev 20:11.

● Rev 6:14b . . and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

No doubt previous centuries of theologians were curious about that prediction, but
thanks to the relatively new science of plate tectonics, we now know that the
movement of mountains and islands has been occurring all along; just not as
noticeable as the shuffle depicted by Rev 16:14b.

Anyway, those events will quite naturally cause a world-wide panic.

● Rev 6:15-17 . . .Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich,
the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks
of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks: Fall on us and hide
us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For
the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?
_

 

[Beetow]

● Rev 8:7 . .The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire
mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was
burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned
up.

There's quite a bit of destruction depicted in that verse; and I suspect it's all aimed
at agriculture.

First a portion of the soil's organic material is destroyed which will greatly impact its
fertility.

Next a portion of the trees are destroyed so that foods derived from trees-- e.g.
nuts, and fruits-- will become in short supply.

And finally all the green grass; which is translated from words that suggest crops
will be just starting to mature and produce grain, e.g. corn, beans, wheat, spelt,
barley, oats, and rice; et al.

* Rice is a staple food for over ½ of the world's human population, particularly in
Asia and Africa.

NOTE: Although crops will be burned, they'll bounce back. (Rev 9:1-4)

Anyway, when food stuffs are fewer in supply, demand for them goes up, and with
that prices go up too.
_

 

[Hekuran]

Tribulation has always been a normal part of following Jesus Christ - past, present and future.

At the beginning of Revelation, John says he is experiencing tribulation and he says that his readers in Ephesus, Laodicea, Thyatira etc are partners in the tribulation.


I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 1:9

 

[Beetow]

According to Matt 24:15-21, the severity of the era ahead will be worse than
anything that anyone has ever seen before and will ever see again.
_

 

[B-A-C]

Somehow we have drifted from "who goes thru it"... to "what is it".