Who is “The Shepherd” of the people, who are not “born from above “ but are members of the “Institutionalize church”?

[Brother-Paul]

Mark 12:41; And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums.
Mark 12:42; A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent.
Mark 12:43; Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury;
Mark 12:44; for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on."

Luke 21:1; And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury.
Luke 21:2; And He saw a poor widow putting in two small copper coins.
Luke 21:3; And He said, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all of them;
Luke 21:4; for they all out of their surplus put into the offering; but she out of her poverty put in all that she had to live on."

I debated on whether or not to post these scriptures here. On the surface it doesn't seem to have a lot to do with the "institutionalized church".
But I notice my Bible calls this place "the treasury". Seemingly an institution. Some Bibles say "the Temple".
Now I know this could rapidly dissolve into a discussion about tithing and mandatory giving... but that isn't the point here.
However you want to look at it... Jesus commended her for giving to "the institution" of the church.

Greeting brother

I think what you add here is fine, but in your last statement I would think Jesus, talking of His Church, the ekklesia, His body, it would be as follows...
Jesus commended her for giving to 'the church'

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

@B-A-C -- there are Also many people who watch church services on TV or virtual who don't have any choice. And there are groups that go to Nursing homes for services on regular basis. And it's up to the person as to which they choose to do. Not to sound mean - spirited -- because there are also those who 'find excuses' to by-pass church.

Greeting Sue,

But how many of them 'watch tv'? They like the singing etc.

There are many that go to places of worship and think they are saved, so there will be many watching TV for the same reasons.

They need the Word of God, fellowship is important but you don't get that watching TV. They need Jesus, they need The Word.

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

@B-A-C -- there are Also many people who watch church services on TV or virtual who don't have any choice. And there are groups that go to Nursing homes for services on regular basis. And it's up to the person as to which they choose to do. Not to sound mean - spirited -- because there are also those who 'find excuses' to by-pass church.

Greeting Sue,

You do not sound mean, you make a common statement, but there are a lot of saved souls outside the kuriakon's. There are many reasons why they do not go, I have heard people say, I don't go because they are hypocrites! They go to church, thing they are righteous for an hour or so, then come back into the world and do what they want in worldly ways for six and a half days.

I have heard others say, Mrs whats her name spoke to me though she was high and mighty, or Mr so and so told me I should do this and that but doesn't do it himself!

I have experienced those who started 'a church', dictating to others everything should be done their way. I have experienced the power a good choir can have on influencing what happens in a church!

There are many reasons inside and outside the doors of a place of worship, there may be lost souls outside but there are lost souls inside too. There may be saved souls inside, a percentage, but there are many saved souls outside also.

Where do I fit in this picture, I went to a CofE place of worship, a brand new church kuriakon, for about six years, I was so frustrated with the tugging between traditional and evangelical, I was so frustrated by the attitude of those who started it from a small hall, I was frustrated by the vicar, he was a nice guy, ran the place well, but bowed down to the choir and others, but more so not expounding The Word. Several times John's Gospel was preached about Nichodemus' visit to see Jesus and be told we MUST BE Born Again, it was never Preached! Each time there was more about Nichodemus, his secret visit, who he was, what he did, but not the most important part... 3 time Jesus said, we MUST BE born again, we should not be surprised when Jesus says we MUST BE born again. Never was born again explained, they believe you are saved when Christened!

I have been a born again Christian for almost thirty years, the above is the only time I have been to or been part of a 'church' kuriakon. I will never belong to a denomination, but I am self taught from The Word, by The Holy Spirit, from then until now.

I have a friend locally, we share most days, prayer, fellowship, encouragement, he would love me to go to 'his church', he is a truly born again believer whom I have known for 30 years, but I do not agree with the denomination top end ways, women vicars, women bishops, an arch bishop that cannot make a decision on key issues, homosexuality etc. I am a spiritual stone in the one true Church, the ekklesia, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, that is what Jesus wants us all to be.

I do have other influences to my decision naturally, I am very deaf, I don't hear, I get stressed, I don't want stress I have learnt to adjust to avoid it. I don't go out a lot due to my disability and pain. I cannot get up and down as others would, and sitting in one place for a period of time brings on more pain in my lower back and coccyx. But my main reason is that I cannot go to a place of worship, that doesn't have women vicars, where the arch bishop and bishop allow it in other parts of the body of their institution.

Watching church services online may give people a little uplift to their spirit, but without The Word that is all it is.

We have to pick up our cross and follow Jesus, have our daily bread, The Word, and feed on it in our hearts daily with Thanks Giving and Praise, giving God the Glory, in all situations though Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

Bless you

 

[B-A-C]

Here we are talking about something you have heard me say many times brother, we need to be looking at the early church, not take for granted the church today, there are distinct differences, the scriptures you quote from Acts I have included in the past, the church today is not as the early church, so many things have changed, by the RCC over the years, by the denominations after the reformation.

Brother Ploughboy is right when he talks of the 'institutionalised church' today. Now at first I though he was referring to the bigger ones, RCC, CofE etc, but in fact it is similar in all denominations, the 'church' 'ekklesia' has allowed itself to get involved in politics! As a result the governments have treated them as charities, eg businesses with tax advantages. The churches today, 'kuriakons' with some 'ekklesia' and some children of the devil, they are 'shackled' with worldly conditions and situations.

Here on the other side of "the pond" as it were... The RCC is not the largest church at all. The US is predominantly protestant. A large part of our history is wrapped up in escaping religious persecution.
But we certainly have "institutionalized churches" just the same. The Southern Baptists and Assemblies of God alone claim around 30 million members here in the US. (depending on which web sites you believe).
The RCC and Episcopalian/CoE/Anglican churches are not a large force here. I will just come out and say this bluntly, I don't consider the RCC part of the church. That isn't to say there aren't some Roman Catholics
that are truly saved, but as whole, the church is lost. Still as a majority, the larger churches in the US claim to have millions of members. (All of the top 10 claim to have over a million)
This thread is titled "who is the shepherd..." . Well, the shepherd is certainly not the Pope. (or the Archbishop of Canterbury).

the 'church' 'ekklesia' has allowed itself to get involved in politics! As a result the governments have treated them as charities, eg businesses with tax advantages.

I certainly agree with this. The last church I attended met in a school gymnasium, and the church I go to now has small "home groups' scattered around the area. We were meeting via video conferencing,
but now we are back to meeting in person again. But I believe the church SHOULD be involved in politics at a certain level. Not so we can get tax breaks and discounts and become slaves to the government...
quite the opposite I think... we should be voting and influencing the government.

Acts 4:24; And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,
Acts 4:25; who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said, 'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE, AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS?
Acts 4:26; 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.'
Acts 4:27; "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 4:28; to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Acts 4:29; "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence,

 

[B-A-C]

Also can I say the church should have at least some defined rules and beliefs. Even TalkJesus has a page for this. (it is not strictly adhered to).
At the very least the apostles creed is a good standard.

Apostles' Creed (I am not affiliated with this church, it was just the first web site with the apostles creed when I googled)

I believe a complete lack of rules in the church would lead to chaos. Some will say this is legalism, perhaps.. but the opposite is chaos.

The apostles creed has the word "catholic" in it. This doesn't mean the Roman Catholic church, but rather the "global" church as a whole.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Also can I say the church should have at least some defined rules and beliefs. Even TalkJesus has a page for this. (it is not strictly adhered to).
At the very least the apostles creed is a good standard.

Apostles' Creed (I am not affiliated with this church, it was just the first web site with the apostles creed when I googled)

Greetings B-A-C

The Apostles Creed does not have to be considered as being a church, a true 'Apostles Creed' is meant to reflect the beliefs of the early church, which as discussed I believe is essential, we should compare the church now with the early church to see what changes the RCC and the reformation has caused.

I believe a complete lack of rules in the church would lead to chaos. Some will say this is legalism, perhaps.. but the opposite is chaos.

The apostles creed has the word "catholic" in it. This doesn't mean the Roman Catholic church, but rather the "global" church as a whole.

A church should have rules brother, that is why we have Bibles.

Regarding what you consider an Apostles Creed from your search, it sounds to me like you may have got a CofE creed. You hit a nail in the head there for me. In the six years or so when I became a Christian, saved soul, I naturally followed their ways of worship, but my biggest frustration was the Creed, when ever I said the creed, I never said the part the refers to believing in the RCC. From memory I think it was, I believe in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I didn't and would never say it.

Since I moved back south and having fellowship with my dear brother of thirty years I was able to question their creed, he saw nothing wrong with including RCC in the creed, confirming they are our brothers and sisters, I explained further on another occasion, but he wasn't having it, so he spoke to his vicar, a Godly man I have heard an online serman, but my brother came back with a reply that it is a general statement for the church. The conversation and prayers are to follow

 

[PloughBoy]

How many have notice, the confusion that has been cause by the word "church". [circe].

That word will cause you to, run around like a dog chasing his tail.

But i have notice, some have stop. and looked.

And some have notice, more precisely, , but have refuse to believe what they see clearly. How could I have been so deceived for so long. This cannot be true. and the scales keep falling off from their eyes, no matter how many Band-Aids they try to patch it up. It is not going to go away.

See the things and acknowledge it and "The Lord" will show you more, in The "Light of Scripture".

A path it seems, we all must go through.


PS.. Jesus, did not say; upon this rock I will build my Church. He said: Upon this Rock I will build my "Congregation" and the gates of hell will not prevail"

Go back and ask "William Tyndale" and find out how that word "church' [circe] slipped in between the "sheets". and you dig deep! maybe i should have said: you "Plough" deep.

 

[Brother-Paul]

How many have notice, the confusion that has been cause by the word "church". [circe].

That word will cause you to, run around like a dog chasing his tail.

But i have notice, some have stop. and looked.

And some have notice, more precisely, , but have refuse to believe what they see clearly. How could I have been so deceived for so long. This cannot be true. and the scales keep falling off from their eyes, no matter how many Band-Aids they try to patch it up. It is not going to go away.

See the things and acknowledge it and "The Lord" will show you more, in The "Light of Scripture".

A path it seems, we all must go through.


PS.. Jesus, did not say; upon this rock I will build my Church. He said: Upon this Rock I will build my "Congregation" and the gates of hell will not prevail"

Go back and ask "William Tyndale" and find out how that word "church' [circe] slipped in between the "sheets". and you dig deep!

Greeting brother,

I do not believe I am running round in 'circles' or chasing my tail, or in a circus!

Whether we look at words like circe, kirk, circus, kerke, kirchie, etc, they come from the old English meanings and mean building or House of the Lord.
Greek Kryiakon, or as sometimes spelt as I put kuriakon, again referring to the building.

Kryiakon or kuriakon was used from around 300 A.D. for Church Building, not the ekklesia the saved believers. This was also around the time of Constantine, the forming of the RCC.

The ekklesia on the other hand is the Body of Saved souls on earth and in heaven

Greek Strong's Number: 1577
Greek Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklēsia
Phonetic Pronunciation:ek-klay-see'-ah
Root: from a compound of <G1537> and a derivative of <G2564>
Vine's Words: Assembly, Congregation
English Words used in KJV:
church 115
assembly 3
[Total Count: 118]
from a compound of <G1537> (ek) and a derivative of <G2564> (kaleo); a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) :- assembly, church.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

 

[PloughBoy]

Greeting brother,

I do not believe I am running round in 'circles' or chasing my tail, or in a circus!

Whether we look at words like circe, kirk, circus, kerke, kirchie, etc, they come from the old English meanings and mean building or House of the Lord.
Greek Kryiakon, or as sometimes spelt as I put kuriakon, again referring to the building.

Kryiakon or kuriakon was used from around 300 A.D. for Church Building, not the ekklesia the saved believers. This was also around the time of Constantine, the forming of the RCC.

The ekklesia on the other hand is the Body of Saved souls on earth and in heaven

Greek Strong's Number: 1577
Greek Word: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklēsia
Phonetic Pronunciation:ek-klay-see'-ah
Root: from a compound of <G1537> and a derivative of <G2564>
Vine's Words: Assembly, Congregation
English Words used in KJV:
church 115
assembly 3
[Total Count: 118]
from a compound of <G1537> (ek) and a derivative of <G2564> (kaleo); a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) :- assembly, church.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Brother-Paul, no way i was placing you in that "category", i know this, by the many of dialogues we have had.

I think i did use a general "english syntax" that did not include everyone, at one point i said; "some" then another I referred to "many" then another i said "we".

And at the beginning I ask a question: "How many have notice". And at at point i said; " i notice that some have stop and took notice.". and of all the replies in that Post# 47 I was complimenting your views, it was not explicitly but surely it was "implicitly", you can tell by the context. of all our engagements, pertaining to the "Biblical text".

I am so sorry that i "miss the mark" again in making my "english syntax" more clearer and more precise for the benefit of the listener and reader. for it is, one of my weakness.

for information only:
The Roman Catholic Church used strong persuasion and compromise for the word "congregation" to be replace with the word "church" in the "Authorizsed King James" 1611, in return some words would be also change, that the Kingship would have more precedence over the church by a more clearer "translation"
and the church leadership would have more authority over it's membership [church]. [ The Puritans where outraged and out gunned.]
The Membership counsel elected by, King James who gave the counsel instruction about things in the translation. and King James was not even a "Christian". The Puritans, had to put up with a lot and compromise a lot in the translation because of "King James" and what the "Roman Catholic Church" wanted to subvert the "Original text". example: : "The slight of the pen" and a word change. These people of the King counsel where not stupid, very cunning, in every aspect.

This is common knowledge. when looking at the source.

 

[Nicola Jane]

Kept by the Shepherd

"Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep."—Hosea 12:12. Jacob, while expostulating with Laban, thus describes his own toil, "This twenty years have I been with thee. That which was torn of beasts I brought not unto thee: I bare the loss of it; of my hand didst thou require it...

www.talkjesus.com

wonderfull xGod bless

 

[Br. Bear]

wonderfull xGod bless

Yes,

"Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep."—Hosea 12:12.
Surely we see our Lord here


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brother-Paul]

Brother-Paul, no way i was placing you in that "category", i know this, by the many of dialogues we have had.

I think i did use a general "english syntax" that did not include everyone, at one point i said; "some" then another I referred to "many" then another i said "we".

And at the beginning I ask a question: "How many have notice". And at at point i said; " i notice that some have stop and took notice.". and of all the replies in that Post# 47 I was complimenting your views, it was not explicitly but surely it was "implicitly", you can tell by the context. of all our engagements, pertaining to the "Biblical text".

I am so sorry that i "miss the mark" again in making my "english syntax" more clearer and more precise for the benefit of the listener and reader. for it is, one of my weakness.

for information only:
The Roman Catholic Church used strong persuasion and compromise for the word "congregation" to be replace with the word "church" in the "Authorizsed King James" 1611, in return some words would be also change, that the Kingship would have more precedence over the church by a more clearer "translation"
and the church leadership would have more authority over it's membership [church]. [ The Puritans where outraged and out gunned.]
The Membership counsel elected by, King James who gave the counsel instruction about things in the translation. and King James was not even a "Christian". The Puritans, had to put up with a lot and compromise a lot in the translation because of "King James" and what the "Roman Catholic Church" wanted to subvert the "Original text". example: : "The slight of the pen" and a word change. These people of the King counsel where not stupid, very cunning, in every aspect.

This is common knowledge. when looking at the source.

Hi brother,

Sorry between us we have a misunderstanding, it was not intentional.

I appreciate everything you are saying and know you like to tease replies from us all. But that aside, if say five or ten are involved in a discussion, and you make a general statement someone is right and not say who it is, like the disciples when Jesus said one would betray him they all look and say is it me that is right or wrong. Although I knew I was right, I hate to say things in that way, it doesn't come over as a humble soul, you could have meant another brother. A little like you PB to me a spade is a spade, if you think I am wrong say so, it doesn't mean I will accept what you say, but I am also one to hold my hand up when wrong and even apologise.

Don't ***** foot brother, Plough Boy ***** foot, that's funny, from here anyway. You talk a lot of sense my friend, most of the time LOL.
[the word used, is common and refers to a cat, but is auto edited by the system so as not to allow words which could be used incorrectly)

Seriously brother, it is The Word of God we are discussing, The Truth is in The Word, lets expound it in reverence and praise.

Regarding the ekklesia, to many see the small picture, focusing from the bottom up, instead of focusing from above down. They view the church from the building instead of from 'the head', Jesus is the head, from Jesus down, when it is viewed correctly a different picture is visible.

Peace be with you brother.

Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God our Father.

 

[PloughBoy]

Hi brother,

Sorry between us we have a misunderstanding, it was not intentional.

I appreciate everything you are saying and know you like to tease replies from us all. But that aside, if say five or ten are involved in a discussion, and you make a general statement someone is right and not say who it is, like the disciples when Jesus said one would betray him they all look and say is it me that is right or wrong. Although I knew I was right, I hate to say things in that way, it doesn't come over as a humble soul, you could have meant another brother. A little like you PB to me a spade is a spade, if you think I am wrong say so, it doesn't mean I will accept what you say, but I am also one to hold my hand up when wrong and even apologise.

Don't ***** foot brother, Plough Boy ***** foot, that's funny, from here anyway. You talk a lot of sense my friend, most of the time LOL.
[the word used, is common and refers to a cat, but is auto edited by the system so as not to allow words which could be used incorrectly)

Seriously brother, it is The Word of God we are discussing, The Truth is in The Word, lets expound it in reverence and praise.

Regarding the ekklesia, to many see the small picture, focusing from the bottom up, instead of focusing from above down. They view the church from the building instead of from 'the head', Jesus is the head, from Jesus down, when it is viewed correctly a different picture is visible.

Peace be with you brother.

Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God our Father.

LoL,, i love your brother