Who is Jesus' Angel?

[Thiscrosshurts]

Most scholar's consider Ezekiel 28:2-20 to be talking about Satan.
A being called the "leader" or "king" of Tyre is mentioned in verses 2 and 12. This may be a parallel allegory.
It is doubtful that an Earthly king in the time of Ezekiel (590-570 BC) was alive in the garden of Eden (28:13). It is even more unlikely that an Earthly king was a cherubim (28:14) If this is satan, then he was a cherubim (angel)

There are many beliefs riding on these verses describing Satan.
To believe that this being is Satan I must also believe that the serpent in the garden was Satan because that is why scholars think it refers to Satan.
The serpent in the garden was created by the Lord God on the sixth day.
The serpent was a beast of the field.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
This does not fit with "you were perfect in all your ways until iniquity was found in thee".

Adam was in the garden and he can certainly be the one referred to.
Adam took the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil thinking it would make him like God.Then Lamech the seventh from Adam said "if Cain is avenged seven times then Lamech seventy seven".
There was also a King called Nimrod that shot an arrow at heaven.
The Babylonians also had myths about ancient Kings and the underworld.Ezekiel was ranting against the Pagan Kings of the earth.
In today's context I would call it a rant against the 1%.

Either way I don't think it has anything to do with the original subject.
I'm interested in your views about "Jesus's angel" which you never got a chance to fully explain.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 12:9 calls the devil a serpent also. (also a dragon, which could be a larger serpent).

Do you believe there was anyone else before the creation of man that rebelled against God? I'm just curious.

As for the original question...
I believe it's simply a reference to "his angel". I think way to much is being made of this.

I might be a commander over a 1000 soldiers. I might send one of them to give a message to another commander.

That other commander might say something like "I received a message from his soldier". That doesn't mean it's the ONLY soldier I have. It simply means he belongs to me.

The same thing with the angel, it was "his angel". But I don't think that means it's the ONLY angel under his authority.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
This does not fit with "you were perfect in all your ways until iniquity was found in thee".

Adam was in the garden and he can certainly be the one referred to.
Adam took the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil thinking it would make him like God.Then Lamech the seventh from Adam said "if Cain is avenged seven times then Lamech seventy seven".
There was also a King called Nimrod that shot an arrow at heaven.
The Babylonians also had myths about ancient Kings and the underworld.Ezekiel was ranting against the Pagan Kings of the earth.
In today's context I would call it a rant against the 1%.

Either way I don't think it has anything to do with the original subject.
I'm interested in your views about "Jesus's angel" which you never got a chance to fully explain.

As Jesus was talking to human men here, The assumption here is that the "beginning" means the beginning of human existence (i.e.Adam)
Adam was deceived, just like Eve was. Why would Adam deceive himself?
The story of Nimrod and the arrow isn't in the Bible.

I'm sure Isaiah and Ezekiel were talking about a real king of the time. The idea of parallel prophesies and allegories is that you can take a story that seemingly has nothing to do with God or Jesus from the Bible and wonder why it's even in the Bible in the first place. (Isaiah 9:6-7 and Isaiah 7:14-16 are other good examples of this)

When you are reading these passages.. if you don't take them in the context of Jesus.. you can say.. whoa,where did that come from? Child born of a virgin? What does that have to do with anything.

It's the same with Satan, or angels.. or pretty much anything. Either you believe in dispensational truths or you don't. Arguing about them rarely changes anyone beliefs either way. As is being discussed in another thread, I merely throw this stuff out there. Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you. In this particular case, I doubt that your salvation depends on whether you believe satan was an angel or not (if he isn't, then what is he?) so it doesn't really matter that much.

 

[Romans 8.28]

I'm interested in your views about "Jesus's angel" which you never got a chance to fully explain.

For my explanation of who Jesus' angel is, go back to reply #5 on the first page and I'll add more here. The idea behind this is to show that some angels are saints, or messengers as it were are in heaven. In this case this human messenger is already present in heaven when John is caught up in Revelation 4:1 to see things hereafter from that point at the beginning of the Lord's Day we read of in Revelation 1:10, and I'm quickly learning how responses can change the need to stray from the original OP. I am pre-trib theology and there must be someone already caught up at that time to satisfy this.

I will repeat the scriptures below telling who Jesus' angel says he is. In Romans 8:29 we read of being conformed into the image of Jesus, and Jesus' angel must certainly have been that since John worshipped him. At this present time we shall know one another by their fruits in Matthew 7:20; in heaven we may see other attributes bestowed as they are in their glorified bodies.

Revelation 19:9 And he (who?- Jesus' angel) saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I (Jesus) come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel (Who?- Jesus' angel) which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Either you believe in dispensational truths or you don't.

I used to believe them but found after scrutiny they didn't hold water well enough for me to continue any kind of fruitful study.
I now just try to make all scripture agree with all scripture.
I have found it is much easier to kill a sacred cow than to form one of your own.I have come to the point where all I am sure of is Christ and him crucified.

As Jesus was talking to human men here, The assumption here is that the "beginning" means the beginning of human existence (i.e.Adam)
Adam was deceived, just like Eve was. Why would Adam deceive himself?
The story of Nimrod and the arrow isn't in the Bible.

Yes that is true
Nimrod is acknowledged in Genesis and there is a connection.

Genesis 10:10 The first centers of his kingdom were Babylon, Erech, Akkad and Calneh, in Shinar.

The plain of Shinar was the site of the tower of Babel.

Wikipedia:
The Jewish-Roman historian Flavius Josephus, in his Antiquities of the Jews (c AD 94), recounted history as found in the Hebrew Bible and mentioned the Tower of Babel. He wrote that it was Nimrod who had the tower built and that Nimrod was a tyrant who tried to turn the people away from God.

I'm sure Isaiah and Ezekiel were talking about a real king of the time. The idea of parallel prophesies and allegories is that you can take a story that seemingly has nothing to do with God or Jesus from the Bible and wonder why it's even in the Bible in the first place. (Isaiah 9:6-7 and Isaiah 7:14-16 are other good examples of this)

Yes,that does add a layer of complexity doesn't it.
That is why I like to read threads like this.
I like to learn and not teach,but sometimes preconceived notions can hinder study and insight.

 

[David777]

Hello all.

I am curious about angels and spiritual domains, although I do not understand much about it.

Here are some passage from Danial, perhaps someone could provide an explanation.
Any ideas, I highlighted the passage below, also included some context for people
that may not have read Danial.

Danial 10:10-17

10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the
palms of my hands.

11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak
to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this
word to me, I stood trembling.

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart
to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and
I have come because of your words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold,
Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with
the kings of Persia.

14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days,
for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

15 When he had spoken such words to me, I turned my face toward the ground and became
speechless.

16 And suddenly, one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my
mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, “My lord, because of the vision my sorrows
have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength.

17 For how can this servant of my lord talk with you, my lord? As for me, no strength remains
in me now, nor is any breath left in me.”

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

For my explanation of who Jesus' angel is, go back to reply #5 on the first page and I'll add more here. The idea behind this is to show that some angels are saints, or messengers as it were are in heaven. In this case this human messenger is already present in heaven when John is caught up in Revelation 4:1 to see things hereafter from that point at the beginning of the Lord's Day we read of in Revelation 1:10, and I'm quickly learning how responses can change the need to stray from the original OP. I am pre-trib theology and there must be someone already caught up at that time to satisfy this.

I follow what your saying here and in post #5 in fact I don't really see a need to explain how this brethren even got there seemingly ahead of the resurrection because:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Since the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world I think those spoken of in Ephesians were there at the beginning.I see that as the unchanging truth of the finished work of Jesus.

for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

I think this is the key to understand but I can't say I fully understand what it means.I think it has something to do with "fellowship in the Holy Spirit".

We might also consider the following scripture. Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Is it possible God is using even our pastors or fellow saints to deal with us too? I know I've heard messages from the pulpit seemingly directed to the problem I'm having without him knowing anything I'm going through.

I've always placed events such as these in the "fellowship in the Holy Spirit" category.I think God once used a cat to prophesy to me so what your saying is no stretch in my mind.

If you can clarify anymore I would like to hear what you found.

 

[Romans 8.28]

I am curious about angels and spiritual domains, although I do not understand much about it.

Here are some passage from Danial, perhaps someone could provide an explanation.
Any ideas, I highlighted the passage below, also included some context for people
that may not have read Danial.

Danial 10:10-17

10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the
palms of my hands.

11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak
to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this
word to me, I stood trembling.

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart
to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and
I have come because of your words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold,
Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with
the kings of Persia.

14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days,
for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

15 When he had spoken such words to me, I turned my face toward the ground and became
speechless.

16 And suddenly, one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my
mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, “My lord, because of the vision my sorrows
have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength.

17 For how can this servant of my lord talk with you, my lord? As for me, no strength remains
in me now, nor is any breath left in me.”

Dear David777, I'll paste the following excerpt from the study of Daniel presented by Gene Hawkins I transcribed from CD's. This small portion will not answer the total of the thoughts you have, but they may give you a start. I'll need to find out from Administration on these forums to see if they allow studies to be posted.

"Daniel must go through these things in order to understand what God wanted him to know and that same thing is true in our lives. We have found that out in this prophesy class that we don't always understand just immediately what God is saying. I mean others have gone before and there are books written and interpretations made, but we must understand that God has to make it real to me. It is me who wants to understand this not just because someone else said so, but because God has given to me a revelation. Well this is the way Daniel was. He had to have a personal revelation of what God was saying to him, and God understood that and took every measure in order to come and see to it that he got exactly what he wanted. And so He said in Daniel 10:12, "From the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words." Now Daniel had been going through this and seeking the Lord for twenty-one days when God said, "I am come for thy words."

Daniel 10:13. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia." Now what we need to understand is that the One doing the talking is this same man that Daniel saw, because you see in Daniel 10:9, "I heard the voice of His words." We are talking about Christ here and so sometimes people might not understand, or they might get a little bit confused by these words in Daniel 10:13 and this is referring to Christ. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood Me. That is, the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood Christ and we think how in the world is that possible? But of course it is and this is what the end time is going to be that Jesus Himself is going to be resisted by those satanic forces in the end time. "I heard the voice of His words. It is so important for us to understand that when Jesus comes He is going to come with ten thousands of His saints, but He is going to meet with great resistance when He does come. And so here we find that the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood Me. Now it is important to understand here He is not talking about the actual literal flesh and blood king of Persia. He is talking about the force behind the king of Persia and there are forces behind every nation in the world today and many of those forces are absolutely satanic and this is what is resisting Him. This is what is happening around our world today when we read of these ungodly men that conduct themselves as they do. They are being forced and motivated by these satanic forces. He is the prince of the power of the air and it is a spiritual battle that is going on today even as it was in Daniel's time, and the Apostle Paul warns us about it in Ephesians Chapter Six."

 

[David777]

Dear Romans8:28.

Understood exactly what you said, that is what I had already assumed the text to be saying.

It is interesting that there are these spiritual forces at work all around the world.
Every country and perhaps every city has some level of control by this spiritual power of evil.

It also reveals Pauls spiritual insight in his letter to the Ephesians.

Ephesians 6:10-13: "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's
schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the
spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God,
so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after
you have done everything, to stand."

 

[B-A-C]

Daniel 10:10-17

10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the
palms of my hands.

11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak
to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this
word to me, I stood trembling.

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart
to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and
I have come because of your words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold,
Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with
the kings of Persia.

14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days,
for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

15 When he had spoken such words to me, I turned my face toward the ground and became
speechless.

16 And suddenly, one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my
mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, “My lord, because of the vision my sorrows
have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength.

17 For how can this servant of my lord talk with you, my lord? As for me, no strength remains
in me now, nor is any breath left in me.”

I see this as.. there were two different beings. In verses 11-15 we see the first, probably a messenger angel. But I wonder if he had a "human" appearance or looked more like one of the angels described in Ezekiel? The reason I wonder is because in verse 16 we see another being who "looks like the sons of men" (i.e. human looking?) This could have actually been Jesus pre-incarnate. But that's another subject.

But you bring up a good point, I wonder how many prayers are hindered because of satan? There are other reason prayers can be hindered also (1 Peter 3:7)

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

"Daniel must go through these things in order to understand what God wanted him to know and that same thing is true in our lives. We have found that out in this prophesy class that we don't always understand just immediately what God is saying. I mean others have gone before and there are books written and interpretations made, but we must understand that God has to make it real to me. It is me who wants to understand this not just because someone else said so, but because God has given to me a revelation. Well this is the way Daniel was. He had to have a personal revelation of what God was saying to him, and God understood that and took every measure in order to come and see to it that he got exactly what he wanted. And so He said in Daniel 10:12, "From the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words." Now Daniel had been going through this and seeking the Lord for twenty-one days when God said, "I am come for thy words."

Wow,that is powerful brother.
You really defined how I have felt for so so long.
That hits the mark

 

[Romans 8.28]

Thiscrosshurts, thank you for the response. You, I, and all students of the word must pass through these things to come to a full understanding of God's intention for us. We're told to in 2 Timothy 2:15 to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, and 2 Peter 3:18; But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is all wonderful as we seek further truth, but it is God in all cases that will lead us to increase as we read in 1 Corinthians 3:6. That was certainly Daniel's experience.

The fact that God has designs on our walk in Christ is exemplified in Ephesians 2:10 where we find that we are God's workmanship. We read how He does this in Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. We hear the old cliché "Be patient with me, God isn't finished with me yet" and that work will continue until we are in His very presence.

What does this all do in our lives? As God gives the increase, we should spiritually grow to one of three different levels of God's will for us; hopefully into the perfect will of God. Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

There are also thee levels of human maturity as an assumed allegory with that spiritual growth. 1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

As Daniel waited twenty-one days, we wait on the Holy Spirit to reveal God's will for us in Christ. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

There are also thee levels of human maturity as an assumed allegory with that spiritual growth. 1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

I am inclined to agree,I see this pattern in other scripture also.

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

The fact that God has designs on our walk in Christ is exemplified in Ephesians 2:10

Yes,I have to agree and not only ours but even unbelievers.
You can get a witness:
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?