Why doesn't God heal everyone?

[Quantrill]

Numbers 33:55 (KJV)
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

That was a common understanding among the nations that describes a more modern take in Paul's day, that a fallen angel or demon was assigned to pester Paul wherever he went. It'sThat solves the mystery of how people knew who he was, what he was about, like the demon possessed girl calling out Paul in Acts 16:16. Throughout all the troubles associated with demonic heralds who stirred people against Paul, he survived being stoned, shipwrecked, whatever Satan and his team threw at him. He exercised the authority Jesus gave. God would be out of character to deliver something satanic to a believer. That would equal putting poison in someone's coffee. He is not like that. If He wanted someone dead He would simply send His own angel to slice the head off, which He did at Sodom. How could anyone have faith in and trust an unpredictable God that might give a scorpion when asking for an egg.

Christians are not subject to whatever covenant Job had to provide that hedge around him. We have been given power to stomp demons. All believers have that authority, but I suppose few actually attempt to carry it out. Most I have met have gone lifetimes not able to even preach a simple salvation message and be prepared to explain it, so of course dealing with demons that come around is out of their league. I believe Paul used that authority for his ministry as well as the many he ministered to, else he would not have survived those journeys. That authority is created in the word of God and is backed up by the grace of God, and cannot fail.

Here's a reality for today. Recovery ministries deal with thousands of cases of people who were brought up Christian, but fell into drugs among even more unbelievers. That's bad enough, but it goes a lot deeper. They are quickly demon oppressed, with voices all around them while asleep (which is almost a miracle to get that), and all waking hours. When they become literally demon inhabited we usually don't see them, as they are very likely to die from extreme abuse. Yet, shose who make it through any of the steps of jail, interdiction to bring them down, prison if violating probation, the courts, arrive with many problems. We've experienced demons jumping out of the new ones and into other residents who had been set free from their own oppressions/possesions, magnifying problems. So we learned to segregate them as facilities were available.

No human can convince me that God handed out a single demon to any of those sufferers, or ever will. Satan does not need God's help, nor would God need Satan's. Here's a message about His way:

John 10:10-11 (KJV)
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

I can't imagine a good shepherd willingly giving one of his sheep a wolf.

First of all, (Num. 33:55) is the Word of God. It is not a 'common understanding among the nations'. (Num. 33:50-51) "And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel...." As to it being a common understanding of the nations concerning demons...who cares? The nations are not the ones being used by God to establish His written Word. And (Num. 33) is clear that it is not talking of demons, but is talking of the people in the land who are the enemies of Israel. The motive for God giving this thorn to the people of Israel is not connected to the motive for God giving the thorn to Paul in any way. One is for Israel if they disobey. Paul's is for protection that he would not be filled with pride.

Sorry, God is just like that. As it so says in (2 Cor. 12:1-10). But you need not worry, I am pretty confident that no believer since Paul has come to the revelations and visions and being used of God as Paul was. You mention we are not as Job as we are not under the same covenant. No doubt because you know it is plain in the book of Job that God used satan to come against Job. So, I can't use the book of Job to describe the nature of God, but you can use (Num. 33) and ascribe the nations understanding of God to it. Something wrong here.

The fact is, we are to use the Old Testament to learn something of God and our relationship with Him. See (1 Cor. 10:6,11). And in the book of Job we see God turning satan lose on Job. See also, (Is. 10:5-7). God is sending Assyria, a heathen people, against His people Israel. The Assyrian doesn't know he is being used by God, but he is. (Is. 10:7) And Paul is clear concerning immorality in the Church, that such a one should be turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved. (1 Cor. 5:5) How about that? Would God do such a thing? You bet He would. And that is New Testament.

Quantrill

 

[KingJ]

You are missing the Spirit....If you read the Word with only your intellect you will miss most of it.
Psalm 103:1-5

Bendito, not saying you do, but when someone uses the line ''by His stripes we ''ARE'' healed'', you think it is spiritual? It is quite literally ''standing'' on a promise. That points 100% to 'intellect' / non figurative / non spiritual. Receive it or don't.

 

[KingJ]

I don't believe Jesus took the whip stripes tearing His flesh from His body, and the crown of thorns piercing (soul/mind) and the nails in His hands and feet, spear in His side (heart/spirit) all for spiritual healing alone.

Who said anything about spiritual healing?

A relationship was healed. He was wounded for our iniquities. Our iniquities caused a separation. By His stripes we are restored with God. Healed of separation. Iniquities washed away.

Bodily healing and ''spiritual' healing are utterly unrelated. The spirit does not get injured. Apples and oranges.

His ministry focus was on physical body healing

Unrelated issue. First deal with the line that many falsely stand on as a ''promise'' for healing and convulate a heretical belief system on.

Matthew 8:16-17 (KJV)
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

What about Isaiah?
Isaiah 53:4-5 (KJV)
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

What Jesus did in healing the sick was to fulfill that prophecy. The apostles carried it on and taught their disciples to do the same. There is no end to it.

Is it not possible that then and now people are damaged or distressed by men as punishment for breaking laws? Well, Jesus can fix that. Do you not believe much sickness is caused by sin as well as demon possession, bad medicine, accidents, etc? Jesus dealt with such miseries with success for all who approached Him.

Two factors to consider:

1. Jesus was perfectly in the will of God. We are not.

When we are perfectly in the will of God we will grasp who God is willing to heal according to His will. We can understand some of His will. Scripture like John 9:31 clarifies that those in sin have little hope of healing.

2. Jesus had a purpose. The healings and other miracles were to clear all confusion on who He was.

Think about Paul. He was knocked off his horse, taken to heaven and wrote 3/4 of the NT. Has any other person being used for this? No. Jesus has been established as being more then a man. Everything He did was in the will of God.

It is God's will that we also heal the sick. It is not God's will that A. Anyone think we are Jesus or B. Anyone think we are a god of sort. When people stop asking ''If it is Thy will please heal this person'' and rather state ''it is Thy will, sickness go'' they are guilty of the latter. IE They are playing god. IE Satanism in Christianity.

 

[Brad Huber]

I doubt it. Even Jesus couldn't heal due to unbelief. He preached "belief" as the main condition of anyone desiring to be healed. It's tough in the USA where people will gladly step up for diabetes healing but won't change their lifestyle to keep healing a day. A lady is in the prayer line every time she is present, wanting her neuopathy gone, but is always a few hundred pounds overweight, eats suppers at Golden Corral. We love her but don't really expect a miracle if she won't admit her lifestyle is dangerous, ignoring counsel by some women who deal with that very common disease. Drug addicts and alcoholics the same. Smokers come back for COPD prayer with smoke on their breath. There are obvious common sense issues involved.

When people go to Jesus, He ascertains "belief" then will even help with unbelief if a person is willing. I don't think the Lord chases folks down to heal them, and doesn't give a bypass for living wrong.

Own it sister, have you personally, who advocates that God will heal everyone IF they have enough faith, been too faithless, that the person suffers due to your lack of faith? Does your God tell you, nope, not enough faith, just a gram short, not enough glory to God in this, they are going to have to suffer due to yours and thier lack of faith?

 

[Dovegiven]

First of all, (Num. 33:55) is the Word of God. It is not a 'common understanding among the nations'. (Num. 33:50-51) "And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel...." As to it being a common understanding of the nations concerning demons...who cares? The nations are not the ones being used by God to establish His written Word. And (Num. 33) is clear that it is not talking of demons, but is talking of the people in the land who are the enemies of Israel. The motive for God giving this thorn to the people of Israel is not connected to the motive for God giving the thorn to Paul in any way. One is for Israel if they disobey. Paul's is for protection that he would not be filled with pride.

Sorry, God is just like that. As it so says in (2 Cor. 12:1-10). But you need not worry, I am pretty confident that no believer since Paul has come to the revelations and visions and being used of God as Paul was. You mention we are not as Job as we are not under the same covenant. No doubt because you know it is plain in the book of Job that God used satan to come against Job. So, I can't use the book of Job to describe the nature of God, but you can use (Num. 33) and ascribe the nations understanding of God to it. Something wrong here.

The fact is, we are to use the Old Testament to learn something of God and our relationship with Him. See (1 Cor. 10:6,11). And in the book of Job we see God turning satan lose on Job. See also, (Is. 10:5-7). God is sending Assyria, a heathen people, against His people Israel. The Assyrian doesn't know he is being used by God, but he is. (Is. 10:7) And Paul is clear concerning immorality in the Church, that such a one should be turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved. (1 Cor. 5:5) How about that? Would God do such a thing? You bet He would. And that is New Testament.

Quantrill

The metaphoric usage of any phrase like "thorn in the flesh" in Numbers 23 supports the fact that it typically refers to troubles wrought by beings, often armies or rebels. It is not used in ancient literature or the Bible to refer to a disease in the body. I'll give up use of other ancient classical literature works that had no influence from the Bible, but may have influenced Moses and other OT authors since that apparently confuses some folks.

You do realize that each book of the Bible author had his own style and focus according to his own experience with God? Here's another use of it, again from what we call the Old Testament, one that Paul would have known well, and would of course influence his own style of expression.

Joshua 23:11-16 (KJV)
11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.
12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Since you and others insist the "thorn in the flesh" is always a disease, would you then believe God would put literal thorns in all their eyes? I take it that means those nations that were not driven out would become as "thorns in their eyes", "scourges in their sides", "snares and traps", all metaphoric expressions of intense and deadly struggles against people who ought not be among them, else Israel be the one leaving the promised land, themselves driven out if not killed.

Throughout Paul's reports of his journeys he described many persecutions, most obviously demonically driven if not by insanity and sheer hatred, not his having disabilities and diseases. He was stoned and stood up to continue on. Neither that nor a poisonous snake bite could stop him. He healed others of diseases by the power of God, and even the very pieces of his aprons projected healing, like Peter's shadow. Having to escape Damascus to avoid being killed, by being lowered to safety in a basket, is just one example of the thorn in his flesh, one of many attempts to end his ministry.

The Bible supplies enough precedent for proper interpretation of its metaphors. Jesus used those much in His parables. All our English grammar lessons originated from the Bible, except modern changes.

So how is it that you ignore such references to a metaphoric phrase that carries from the Old Testament into the New? It was and is still well known those are not literal symptoms indicating diseases. They indicate troubles, war and defeat, exhaustion, harassment. His agony over the Jews' rejection of Jesus was a thorn in his side, and in his eyes.

Here's another, terminology and concepts that carried over into New Testament writings.
Ezekiel 28:24 (KJV)
24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

That was included in a prophecy against Zidon, the pirates of Phoenicia who had power over the Mediterranean sea, preventing Israel from importing and exporting by sea.

That concludes a stronger case against pure speculation, using scriptures that cannot be denied. That's all I will say about the "thorn in the flesh".

 

[Quantrill]

The metaphoric usage of any phrase like "thorn in the flesh" in Numbers 23 supports the fact that it typically refers to troubles wrought by beings, often armies or rebels. It is not used in ancient literature or the Bible to refer to a disease in the body. I'll give up use of other ancient classical literature works that had no influence from the Bible, but may have influenced Moses and other OT authors since that apparently confuses some folks.

You do realize that each book of the Bible author had his own style and focus according to his own experience with God? Here's another use of it, again from what we call the Old Testament, one that Paul would have known well, and would of course influence his own style of expression.

Joshua 23:11-16 (KJV)
11 Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.
12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
14 And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Since you and others insist the "thorn in the flesh" is always a disease, would you then believe God would put literal thorns in all their eyes? I take it that means those nations that were not driven out would become as "thorns in their eyes", "scourges in their sides", "snares and traps", all metaphoric expressions of intense and deadly struggles against people who ought not be among them, else Israel be the one leaving the promised land, themselves driven out if not killed.

Throughout Paul's reports of his journeys he described many persecutions, most obviously demonically driven if not by insanity and sheer hatred, not his having disabilities and diseases. He was stoned and stood up to continue on. Neither that nor a poisonous snake bite could stop him. He healed others of diseases by the power of God, and even the very pieces of his aprons projected healing, like Peter's shadow. Having to escape Damascus to avoid being killed, by being lowered to safety in a basket, is just one example of the thorn in his flesh, one of many attempts to end his ministry.

The Bible supplies enough precedent for proper interpretation of its metaphors. Jesus used those much in His parables. All our English grammar lessons originated from the Bible, except modern changes.

So how is it that you ignore such references to a metaphoric phrase that carries from the Old Testament into the New? It was and is still well known those are not literal symptoms indicating diseases. They indicate troubles, war and defeat, exhaustion, harassment. His agony over the Jews' rejection of Jesus was a thorn in his side, and in his eyes.

Here's another, terminology and concepts that carried over into New Testament writings.
Ezekiel 28:24 (KJV)
24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

That was included in a prophecy against Zidon, the pirates of Phoenicia who had power over the Mediterranean sea, preventing Israel from importing and exporting by sea.

That concludes a stronger case against pure speculation, using scriptures that cannot be denied. That's all I will say about the "thorn in the flesh".

(Num. 33) and (Joshua 23) simply deals with the same warning. I was clear that the motive for God giving the warning to the Israelites and the motive for Him giving to Paul a thorn in the flesh are different. So, just because a 'thorn' is described doesn't make it walk on all fours in both instances.

Each writer has his own focus and purpose and style. Sometimes it can be seen, but sometimes it cannot. Why? Because the writers were human, the Author is God. God's Spirit sometimes is more evident and many times it appears there are different writers in the same book. But, that is for another topic.

I never said the thorn was a disease. It could be, but I don't know. Whatever it was, it was a messenger of satan. In other words, the messenger of satan was given. The messenger of satan did not come along and give Paul a thorn. The messenger of satan was the thorn.

You have no idea, and neither does anyone else what the messenger of satan sent to buffet Paul was. It is enough to know that it worked. Why? Because it was sent by God. But, your use of Old Testament is strange to me beings how you claim we cannot appeal to Job because he was under a different covenant.

Concerning your passage in (Ezekiel), I don't know what you hope to prove. Everyone knows what a thorn in the flesh does. The point here, with Paul's thorn in the flesh, is the purpose God gave it. And for Paul, it was so he would not be exalted.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

(Num. 33) and (Joshua 23) simply deals with the same warning. I was clear that the motive for God giving the warning to the Israelites and the motive for Him giving to Paul a thorn in the flesh are different. So, just because a 'thorn' is described doesn't make it walk on all fours in both instances.

Each writer has his own focus and purpose and style. Sometimes it can be seen, but sometimes it cannot. Why? Because the writers were human, the Author is God. God's Spirit sometimes is more evident and many times it appears there are different writers in the same book. But, that is for another topic.

I never said the thorn was a disease. It could be, but I don't know. Whatever it was, it was a messenger of satan. In other words, the messenger of satan was given. The messenger of satan did not come along and give Paul a thorn. The messenger of satan was the thorn.

You have no idea, and neither does anyone else what the messenger of satan sent to buffet Paul was. It is enough to know that it worked. Why? Because it was sent by God. But, your use of Old Testament is strange to me beings how you claim we cannot appeal to Job because he was under a different covenant.

Concerning your passage in (Ezekiel), I don't know what you hope to prove. Everyone knows what a thorn in the flesh does. The point here, with Paul's thorn in the flesh, is the purpose God gave it. And for Paul, it was so he would not be exalted.

Quantrill

Salami, salami. baloney. It never indicates who the messenger of Satan was by name. There no doubt several principalities involved. God is not a messenger of Satan, nor is on record as using his services. Satan has his own ministry, which God allows to amazing degrees. Throughout Christian scholarship this topic has been debated, but there is insufficient evidence for a verdict. All we know is Paul's problem was a result of a messenger on behalf of Satan. Knowing the love and nature of God in the slightest degree should not connect holy God to any promotion of desire of Satan.
The slightest connection of satanic evil to God is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Satan assigned spirits to accompany Paul for the purpose of disposing him. God encouraged Paul, and prevented him from being puffed up over his revelations. If the revelations themselves were a threat, all God would need to do was to limit the revelations. But instead God taught Paul humility and meekness in the Spirit.

Avoid insanity!

 

[Quantrill]

Salami, salami. baloney. It never indicates who the messenger of Satan was by name. There no doubt several principalities involved. God is not a messenger of Satan, nor is on record as using his services. Satan has his own ministry, which God allows to amazing degrees. Throughout Christian scholarship this topic has been debated, but there is insufficient evidence for a verdict. All we know is Paul's problem was a result of a messenger on behalf of Satan. Knowing the love and nature of God in the slightest degree should not connect holy God to any promotion of desire of Satan.
The slightest connection of satanic evil to God is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Satan assigned spirits to accompany Paul for the purpose of disposing him. God encouraged Paul, and prevented him from being puffed up over his revelations. If the revelations themselves were a threat, all God would need to do was to limit the revelations. But instead God taught Paul humility and meekness in the Spirit.

Avoid insanity!

If there is insufficient evidence for a verdict then why are you disagreeing? Strange statement.

We know the messenger of satan was the thorn in the flesh. (2 Cor. 12:7) "...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me...." satan is not the giver. God is. Why? (12:7) "...lest I should be exalted above measure."

Oh, you think Paul was a good little student? Not hardly. Paul was extremely difficult. Oh yes, God would teach him, the hard way. Just like when He saved Paul. He didn't come preaching the 4 spiritual laws. And Paul didn't come shoutin hallelujh's. He knocked him to the ground and blinded him, and said this is what you will do. Such a fine student he was. He suffered his whole life after that. So, you see, a thorn in the flesh sent by God was necessary. And that thorn sent by God was a messenger of satan.

It doesn't bother God to use satan or his angels. That doesn't make God evil. God is doing the good. satan may mean it for evil, but who cares. What does he know. God means it for good and that is how it will work.

Stranger

 

[Dovegiven]

Interpreting it the same way the Pharisees did is not healthy exegesis, but amounts to blasphemy. We are now way into another subject.
Matthew 12:22-37 (KJV)
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Why would God then be part of the evil works of Satan to get His will done? He is God. He doesn't need help. Why would Satan sign up to do the will of God? Men refuse and God works around them too until He finds one willing and then doing. Mixing holiness and satanic evil is like oil with water. in the natural world.

 

[Dovegiven]

If there is insufficient evidence for a verdict then why are you disagreeing? Strange statement.

We know the messenger of satan was the thorn in the flesh. (2 Cor. 12:7) "...there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me...." satan is not the giver. God is. Why? (12:7) "...lest I should be exalted above measure."

Oh, you think Paul was a good little student? Not hardly. Paul was extremely difficult. Oh yes, God would teach him, the hard way. Just like when He saved Paul. He didn't come preaching the 4 spiritual laws. And Paul didn't come shoutin hallelujh's. He knocked him to the ground and blinded him, and said this is what you will do. Such a fine student he was. He suffered his whole life after that. So, you see, a thorn in the flesh sent by God was necessary. And that thorn sent by God was a messenger of satan.

It doesn't bother God to use satan or his angels. That doesn't make God evil. God is doing the good. satan may mean it for evil, but who cares. What does he know. God means it for good and that is how it will work.

Stranger

Next. Paul was blinded on the road, but was healed after three days of fasting. There is no mention of Paul sinning afterwards. He was convinced he was serving God and the Law before that experience. From the looks of it all Paul was a far better student of God than any of us combined.

2 Timothy 2:8-18 (KJV)
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

He suffered the way an evil doer should for evil works, like Jesus suffered as though a sinner. That's as close as you will get to making Paul a sinner after yielding to Jesus. If you make him a sinner, you make Jesus one too.

 

[Quantrill]

Interpreting it the same way the Pharisees did is not healthy exegesis, but amounts to blasphemy. We are now way into another subject.
Matthew 12:22-37 (KJV)
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Why would God then be part of the evil works of Satan to get His will done? He is God. He doesn't need help. Why would Satan sign up to do the will of God? Men refuse and God works around them too until He finds one willing and then doing. Mixing holiness and satanic evil is like oil with water. in the natural world.

God is not doing the works of satan. And satan is not willfully doing the works of God. God is doing His work. Using satan or his angels at times to accomplish it, is not a problem with God. Just like with Joseph. (Gen. 50:20) "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." There was evil behind the brothers doing what they did to Joseph. But behind that there was God, making sure all was done in accordance to His purpose which is good. satan did what he did to Joseph, because he hated God's people. But what he did to Joseph played into the hand of God, was what God wanted, for the good.

Again see (Is. 10:5-7).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Next. Paul was blinded on the road, but was healed after three days of fasting. There is no mention of Paul sinning afterwards. He was convinced he was serving God and the Law before that experience. From the looks of it all Paul was a far better student of God than any of us combined.

2 Timothy 2:8-18 (KJV)
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

He suffered the way an evil doer should for evil works, like Jesus suffered as though a sinner. That's as close as you will get to making Paul a sinner after yielding to Jesus. If you make him a sinner, you make Jesus one too.

What an empty statement. Paul was sinner like all of us are sinners. He had a harder time admitting it as his background was as a Pharisee. (Rom. 7:24) That doesn't make Jesus a sinner.

As Paul grew in the faith, he became more aware of his sins. Note his growth in this knowledge.

1. (1 Cor. 15:9) Paul considers himself the least of the apostles.

2. (Eph. 3:8) Paul considers himself the least of all saints.

3. (1 Tim. 1:15) Paul considers himself the chief of all sinners.

Funny isn't it that the closer you get to God the more of a sinner you see you are. What does that say for your theology that doesn't see sin in Paul or a believer who is close to God. It says a lot to me.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

What an empty statement. Paul was sinner like all of us are sinners. He had a harder time admitting it as his background was as a Pharisee. (Rom. 7:24) That doesn't make Jesus a sinner.

As Paul grew in the faith, he became more aware of his sins. Note his growth in this knowledge.

1. (1 Cor. 15:9) Paul considers himself the least of the apostles.

2. (Eph. 3:8) Paul considers himself the least of all saints.

3. (1 Tim. 1:15) Paul considers himself the chief of all sinners.

Funny isn't it that the closer you get to God the more of a sinner you see you are. What does that say for your theology that doesn't see sin in Paul or a believer who is close to God. It says a lot to me.

Quantrill

I do realize lots of people who claim to be Christians still believe they are sinners, which of course means they need to be born again. If still in the "sinner" category, one can't have the other foot in the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. If born again one lives a life of rejection of sin, not embracement of it. I am the righteousness of God in Jesus. Why won't you decide to plunge in?

I also realize many people who consider themselves Christian have no problem breaking laws, like avoiding payment of income taxes due, since they think that does good by defunding abortion, etc. I think anyone who is a real Christian ought to believe on HOLY God who does not sin, nor does He need the services of sinners. He has plenty of fine angels to do lots for Him, and many fine Christians who need never sin to please God.

Paul made many humble statements about his past, but those didn't mean he was a lost sinner. The difference between sinner and saint is saints of God are quick to repent and improve their continue to grow in righteousness living.

 

[Dovegiven]

Here's a fitting lesson from Paul, a very great man of God.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (KJV)
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I do my utmost by the power of God in me, available to all born again people, to shun evil, find out daily what sin is, finishing each day fully cleansed and in no way a sinner. I wake up in that state, on guard. I know God will never call upon Satan to do something to me to make me more humble. Instead, I grow in boldness in Christ, with true meekness, that is, power under control.

If you can't be temperate in all things, mastering the WAY, there's a problem. Avoid being found a castaway. It's a hard trip back to a good point in your walk.

 

[Quantrill]

I do realize lots of people who claim to be Christians still believe they are sinners, which of course means they need to be born again. If still in the "sinner" category, one can't have the other foot in the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. If born again one lives a life of rejection of sin, not embracement of it. I am the righteousness of God in Jesus. Why won't you decide to plunge in?

I also realize many people who consider themselves Christian have no problem breaking laws, like avoiding payment of income taxes due, since they think that does good by defunding abortion, etc. I think anyone who is a real Christian ought to believe on HOLY God who does not sin, nor does He need the services of sinners. He has plenty of fine angels to do lots for Him, and many fine Christians who need never sin to please God.

Paul made many humble statements about his past, but those didn't mean he was a lost sinner. The difference between sinner and saint is saints of God are quick to repent and improve their continue to grow in righteousness living.

Paul claimed he was still a sinner as I showed you. A little tidbit of knowledge for you: (1 Tim. 1:15) was written at the end of Paul's ministry. Your claim that a Christian is not still a sinner, is empty and void.

A real Christian should believe what the Bible says, and not you. Thus they will know they still are a sinner and will be till they are taken home to be with Jesus. All those 'fine Christians you talk about are living a lie. Just like you are if you believe you are no longer a sinner.

Saints are sinners. But they know it. They were made sinners in Adam. They are sanctified in Christ.

What a warped theology you have.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I do my utmost by the power of God in me, available to all born again people, to shun evil, find out daily what sin is, finishing each day fully cleansed and in no way a sinner. I wake up in that state, on guard. I know God will never call upon Satan to do something to me to make me more humble. Instead, I grow in boldness in Christ, with true meekness, that is, power under control.

If you can't be temperate in all things, mastering the WAY, there's a problem. Avoid being found a castaway. It's a hard trip back to a good point in your walk.

And guess what? In all that you said....you're still a sinner. Oh my, what will you do now?

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

I was once a lost sinner, but now have been made the righteousness of God through Christ in me. I will ignore your false doctrines and continue to do what Peter taught in
1 Peter 2:1-12 (KJV)
1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

I can't help an avowed sinner, nor a person committed to killing themselves with drugs or other means without repentance. Maybe there's still time for your eyes to be opened. Drug dealers declare to us they are confirmed sinners and will never repent. So I stop praying for them, and we won't accept them from the courts, not equipped to deal with intransigents. Be sure you don't fall that way.

Meanwhile, may the children of God move past slavery to sin and the memory of that, to live this way:
2 Peter 1:10-11 (KJV)
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

What things assure us of that entrance? Read the chapter. Exceed the lack of knowledge exhibited by a few here today, seek wisdom.

 

[Dovegiven]

And guess what? In all that you said....you're still a sinner. Oh my, what will you do now?

Quantrill

I wonder what sinners do with
1 John 2:1-6 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

That's a big "if", very important to the Lord. While keeping His commandments we will not be sinning. That passage came to my attention probably a few years after being born again, so I don't know how I would have handled it earlier.

No sinner can live like that, as his father is the devil. There is the one and only way out of that mess. Receive Jesus' blessing of salvation (be born again), be baptized in water, give up being a sinner, repenting of past sins, and begin walking as Jesus did and His disciples to this day among many all around the world. One is also a liar if saying you have not sinned and don't need Jesus, especially when hearing the gospel preached. He came to save sinners, not making them comfortable in their sins. I realize those men had their challenges like we all go through, but it is possible, and if you practice that enough it becomes your whole new habitual nature inside and out. "Latch onto His belt, breathe the dust of His trail" (old hymn), like a good student did his master in Jesus' times.

 

[Quantrill]

I wonder what sinners do with
1 John 2:1-6 (KJV)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

That's a big "if", very important to the Lord. While keeping His commandments we will not be sinning. That passage came to my attention probably a few years after being born again, so I don't know how I would have handled it earlier.

No sinner can live like that, as his father is the devil. There is the one and only way out of that mess. Receive Jesus' blessing of salvation (be born again), be baptized in water, give up being a sinner, repenting of past sins, and begin walking as Jesus did and His disciples to this day among many all around the world. One is also a liar if saying you have not sinned and don't need Jesus, especially when hearing the gospel preached. He came to save sinners, not making them comfortable in their sins. I realize those men had their challenges like we all go through, but it is possible, and if you practice that enough it becomes your whole new habitual nature inside and out. "Latch onto His belt, breathe the dust of His trail" (old hymn), like a good student did his master in Jesus' times.

We who are Christians and sinners do what we are supposed to do with it. Understand it in light of what has been said. And what has been said? (1 John 1:8-10) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

John in his first epistle is writing against false teachings that have arisen. (1 John 2:18-19) Thus he is drawing stark lines to divide the people of God from these who are following a false way. His purpose is to show that to enjoy fellowship with God and His people one must be in fellowship with Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:3-4) Sin is contrary to God, so of course, John writes that we as believers sin not. (2:1) But then adds, 'if any man sin, we have an Advocate'. Thus the believer in Christ will always have this constant warfare going on here. Walking, and then sinning, and coming to Christ our Advocate, and then walking again.

Paul recognized this terrible condition in himself as a believer in Christ. He finally came to the correct conclusion of the matter. (Rom. 7:15-20) "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Rom. 7:20) "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

Paul didn't do away with sin in his life as you are trying to do by saying it doesn't exist. He owned it. But he recognized that in Christ, he is not the sinner. (Rom. 7:24-25)

Quantrill

 

[Dave M]

@Quantrill you do understand the difference between being a slave to sin and being set free from sin dont you? you do realize when God gives us a new heart we no longer practice sin as a life style dont you?

yes we are still sinners by nature, and yes we may stumble in sin, yet there is a distinct difference between a born again person and the person he used to be