Why I Hate Religion

[ChristineES]

Faith has always been much more important than religion. But I don't hate religion- I just get wary when people put their religion ahead of God.

 

[Kit Carson]

Guess it depends on one's idea of what the entity of the church. Many believe that the body of Christ is the same as the Christian religious institution, but I beg to differ on many levels. But need to save it for another discussion. I have posted many threads on this topic feel free to make a post on any of them.

Yes Sir I understand exactly. I like to keep things simple and sometimes great depth discussion can do more harm to those looking in than good. So to me yes, the church is us, the believer. But also the religious institutions and local churches also. For without these, and without the word of God becoming known in our modern way, then it would slowly die away. Someone or something in this world has to push for people to believe and in our modern day, it is the church.

So keeping it simple, all are important, and when I, we, or any of us , see things we do not like and resent them, and allow them to push us away totally, ..........as I did once........then we do not understand love and forgiveness as we should.

You see when you do understand what God is telling us, these things are not a threat to us.....but we can make them better. We can speak truth and present Gods word in truth. Some will listen, some will not.

But I also resented, and I walked away from church totally......God gave me some time, and then he said look stupid.......if you can help do so, do not hold the evil against the good. That in spite of evil good is also accomplished.

Kit

 

[kevinlb63]

ChristineES Faith has always been much more important than religion. But I don't hate religion- I just get wary when people put their religion ahead of God.

what i tell people all the time is what you just said. you are dead on the money! thanks

 

[Kit Carson]

You really don't know? Jesus himself said he did not come to unite but divide. Paul instructed the church at Corinth to throw out the sinners and give them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. We are to purge out the old leaven. Paul instructed to mark them that cause division among us that are contrary to the doctrine which we have learned and avoid them. We are commanded in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to withdraw ourselves from every brother who does not walk after the ordinances that we have received. Even Jesus didn't give his own family the time of day when they wished to see him as he stated that those who actually do the will of God his Father are his family. So to think that we are supposed to make friendly and invite everyone into the church without checking their sin at the door is wrong. I stand firm. The bible says the pure religion is to keep your self unspotted from the world. Purge out the leaven and live. Stay soiled with sin and die. To love one another is to wash each others feet from the dirt that gets on them from this ungodly world we live in that is kept in store to be judged by fire. Jesus said that they were clean through the words he spoke to them. The bible contends "Awake to righteousness and sin not". All that are willing to do so will be persecuted by those who are uncircumcised in heart and living in their flesh, hating the light and calling them self-righteous, just looking for a way to throw them under the bus or nail them to a cross. Ecumenicism is not Jesus way.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Jesus did not come to divide, one must understand what he has said. Yes the very fact that I believe in God and Jesus and that maybe a family member does not, can and does and has created hardship, and this is what he spoke of. That some will believe on me and some will not so some will chose to become divided. This is what he means, Jesus does not wish any to divide. He simply explains why it will be so. But he also teaches later that it does not have to be so, that we can forgive and work and teach and sometimes it does work out. Such as how we are taught about man and wife, one believes, one does not, if we work at it and we are patient and show love and compassion then it is possible the unbeliever will believe. If we become angry or hostile or push and pull.........the division may occur.

As for throwing out the sinners, I hope not, as I would be thrown out myself. Lol! Just a joke, but also true. In great depth and meaning.

Jesus sat with the sinners, as we can. We can sit with a murderer, a homosexual, a thief, and we can speak to them of God and of Jesus. If they do show acceptance and a willingness to listen....why should we throw them away?? I think Paul speaks of those who live in sin and deliberately challenge God and the assembly and chose to ignore and in spite of discussion and warning........they persist. So yes....then as one of mans sayings says.....get rid of the rotten apple before it rots the rest.

But if Jesus tell a thief on the cross, you are saved .....should we do less. If they really do accept? Should we toss them away before we try?

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

I was struggling to understand you post.

Especially, regarding division and unity.

Look at the following verses.

Luke 12 (NKJV)

51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.

52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.

53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and
daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law
against her mother-in-law.”

Division mentioned above applies to the family unit, not the Church.

Ephesians 4

4 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,

2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,

3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The verses above definitely define the unity we have as Christians.

David, I agree with you to the extent that Christians ought to be unified as mentioned in the scripture you quoted, that is, when there are not other scriptures commanding them to withdraw themselves. It is easy to quote a scripture here, or a scripture there that contradicts what another is saying, but we must always go by the whole counsel of God as scripture interprets and limits itself. We should always strive for unity within the body of Christ. Paul calling Peter out for being a hippocrate in Galatians is an example of striving to keep unity by exposing those who cause divisions. Paul would just as soon cast Peter out for the sake of unity than to allow him to continue in his sin against the body.

A study of Gods use of division and his mission of division would probably aid you in understanding how and when it should be used. It is all about dividing the light from the darkness.

 

[gdemoss]

I don't understand how this relates to anything I have said.

:bored:

That is tragic.

 

[gdemoss]

Jesus sat with the sinners, as we can. We can sit with a murderer, a homosexual, a thief, and we can speak to them of God and of Jesus. If they do show acceptance and a willingness to listen....why should we throw them away?? I think Paul speaks of those who live in sin and deliberately challenge God and the assembly and chose to ignore and in spite of discussion and warning........they persist. So yes....then as one of mans sayings says.....get rid of the rotten apple before it rots the rest.

But if Jesus tell a thief on the cross, you are saved .....should we do less. If they really do accept? Should we toss them away before we try?

Sorry that you don't understand what I am saying. We eat with sinners for the purpose of reconciliation to God through the gospel. We don't make them apart of our fellowship without repentance though. I do not shun those who are in the world and living in sin ignorantly as they need Christ. I do not fellowship with those who call themselves Christians but are drunkards, idolotars, homosexuals, adulterers etc...

Gary

 

[Fraction]

That is tragic.

So are irrelevant responses.

 

[gdemoss]

So are irrelevant responses.

I was clear, direct and relevant. You were unable to understand how so. This is a tragedy as no matter how I explain it you will not understand it. It is as Jesus said to his disciples 'why is it that you don't understand my speech?'

Gary

 

[Fraction]

I was clear, direct and relevant. You were unable to understand how so. This is a tragedy as no matter how I explain it you will not understand it. It is as Jesus said to his disciples 'why is it that you don't understand my speech?'

Gary

Gary, you were not relevant and on a different topic when you responded to my post. At least the clear part was right, because your opinion has been...noted. You haven't tried explaining anything to me besides your random point/ranting Gary lol. It is also nothing like when Jesus said that.

Would you like me to explain it to you or something?

 

[David777]

Religion.

Religion: is the external manifestation of man's construction of Christianity.

Religion is a church with a name attached to it, which defines the doctrinal position of the church.

Religion is a traditional practice of everything that is not important in Christianity.

Religion divides Christianity into 30,000 denominations.

Religion is the repetition of prayer.

Religion is a catechism.

Religion is a total immersion baptism.

Religion is the eucharist.

Religion is a doctrinal construction.

Religion is the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Religion is the Catholic Church, there is no better example.

Religion means division.

Religion is the enemy of Christ.

Religion is what non Christians see as Christianity.

Religion is the never ending squabble over truth.

Christianity is and only is the revelation of Jesus Christ.
The Bible contains the progressive revelation of Jesus.
Christians are not divided, there is only one Jesus Christ.
Christians believe in Jesus Christ.
This is the real CHURCH of GOD.
We are all forgiven in the blood of Jesus Christ.
There is no other name under Heaven by which
we can be saved.
Jesus is our only focus, the Head of the Church.

 

[gdemoss]

Gary, you were not relevant and on a different topic when you responded to my post. At least the clear part was right, because your opinion has been...noted. You haven't tried explaining anything to me besides your random point/ranting Gary lol. It is also nothing like when Jesus said that.

Would you like me to explain it to you or something?

Sure, explain your perception of relevance.

 

[Fraction]

Sure, explain your perception of relevance.

I'll start slowly.

What does it mean when something is relevant?

The English definition of this word is: bearing upon or connect with the matter at hand.

So in order for something to be relevant it has to relate to the topic or subject at hand. So if a meteorite hit the earth, talking about the causes that it had on the earth would be relevant, talking about the next Lady Gaga album wouldn't be.

What was the point of my post?

I will pinpoint the point in my post, since it was either ignored, missed, or misunderstood.

The point of my post was that separating the Christian faith by different denominations causes separation. Which is a bad thing for Christians. This point was targeted AT believers and seekers of Christianity.

I assume that you came to your ranting from the second half, when I spoke of marked bodies, homosexuals, and sinners. I said that we should not be divided from these types of people either, pretty much. However, this point goes with the first as well. I was talking about believers, those that are seeking, and those who are curious.

I have no idea of your comprehension skills, but this is as clear as it can possibly get. If this is rejected, it is obviously out of personal feelings and not logically. So, if one is willing to understand, they can see that your response has nothing at ALL to do with my post. Your reply was in direct disagreement of things that never existed.

 

[gdemoss]

The point of my post was that separating the Christian faith by different denominations causes separation. Which is a bad thing for Christians. This point was targeted AT believers and seekers of Christianity.

And I answered this by speaking about what causes the separation and that it is necessary. The denominational divide is caused by heresy. It is the logical end to it as those who don't agree cannot walk together as per the word of God. There is no fellowship. You purge out the old leaven and they go out and start a new church using their own false doctrine. This problem is as old as the church itself.

I assume that you came to your ranting from the second half, when I spoke of marked bodies, homosexuals, and sinners. I said that we should not be divided from these types of people either, pretty much. However, this point goes with the first as well. I was talking about believers, those that are seeking, and those who are curious.

You are correct that I spent more time addressing these things that were said than the denomination thing. These are the worst offenses. You don't take in unrepentant sinners into the church. The interaction that we are to have with them is to call them to repentance and those that do, we baptize into the body of Christ and love them like brothers. Those that don't we simply live at peace with knowing that they are going headlong into judgment without Christ.

I have no idea of your comprehension skills, but this is as clear as it can possibly get. If this is rejected, it is obviously out of personal feelings and not logically. So, if one is willing to understand, they can see that your response has nothing at ALL to do with my post. Your reply was in direct disagreement of things that never existed.

I have to admit, my comprehension skills can lack at times. I have received responses from people and have gone back over the materials they spoke of in great detail, only to find that we were saying the same thing in two different ways. Unfortunately that isn't the case with you and I. We are directly opposed to one another. You just accuse me of being irrelevant to what you posted, which I contend I was not.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[Fraction]

And I answered this by speaking about what causes the separation and that it is necessary. The denominational divide is caused by heresy. It is the logical end to it as those who don't agree cannot walk together as per the word of God. There is no fellowship. You purge out the old leaven and they go out and start a new church using their own false doctrine. This problem is as old as the church itself.

Where exactly does it say that it is necessary? Why would something like separation be necessary to begin with? That would greatly weaken the odds of Christianity spreading more rapidly then it is right now. I would very much like for you to post scripture and explain your view based off of that. If that's okay.

You are correct that I spent more time addressing these things that were said than the denomination thing. These are the worst offenses. You don't take in unrepentant sinners into the church. The interaction that we are to have with them is to call them to repentance and those that do, we baptize into the body of Christ and love them like brothers. Those that don't we simply live at peace with knowing that they are going headlong into judgment without Christ.

We are going to disagree on biblical repentance. I know this because of your other posts about works equaling salvation in other threads. However, now is not the place, and I don't humor the closed minded on these topics. However, I will say that Christians have sinned before, they can sin now, and they can sin later. This never changed the fact that they are still a Christian.

I have to admit, my comprehension skills can lack at times. I have received responses from people and have gone back over the materials they spoke of in great detail, only to find that we were saying the same thing in two different ways. Unfortunately that isn't the case with you and I. We are directly opposed to one another. You just accuse me of being irrelevant to what you posted, which I contend I was not.

We should agree to disagree. Simple.

 

[gdemoss]

Where exactly does it say that it is necessary? Why would something like separation be necessary to begin with? That would greatly weaken the odds of Christianity spreading more rapidly then it is right now. I would very much like for you to post scripture and explain your view based off of that. If that's okay.

The instruction is to remove them from the church as found in 1 Corinthians 5 and the fornicator. We are also told to do the same with several others in that chapter such as drunkards. These are they, who in some cases, start new denominations. Sin causes separation between the believer and God. Sin also causes separation between the beleiver and the assembly. Many today believe we should accept sin into the church, even allowing homosexuals to teach and preach while openly being in a sexual relationship with another man. Sin hurts the church not separation.

We are going to disagree on biblical repentance. I know this because of your other posts about works equaling salvation in other threads. However, now is not the place, and I don't humor the closed minded on these topics. However, I will say that Christians have sinned before, they can sin now, and they can sin later. This never changed the fact that they are still a Christian.

First works does not equal salvation. Works equals condemnation when they don't match the truth of the Gospel. Only repentance toward God and faith in the blood of Christ can save. Secondly, I agree with your last statement about the Christians ability to sin except it be for a Christian to be completely emersed in the Word of God, which causes him to continue without sin.

We should agree to disagree. Simple

.

Which brings separation Amos 3:3.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[Fraction]

The instruction is to remove them from the church as found in 1 Corinthians 5 and the fornicator. We are also told to do the same with several others in that chapter such as drunkards. These are they, who in some cases, start new denominations. Sin causes separation between the believer and God. Sin also causes separation between the beleiver and the assembly. Many today believe we should accept sin into the church, even allowing homosexuals to teach and preach while openly being in a sexual relationship with another man. Sin hurts the church not separation.

I can see where you have received your view from. I actually don't agree with you on this view still (no offense). I am in no way challenging your view and saying it is wrong, I just simply see it a different way. If you would like to know why, feel free to ask. I will in the meantime spare you of my explanation for my view out of respect.

First works does not equal salvation. Works equals condemnation when they don't match the truth of the Gospel. Only repentance toward God and faith in the blood of Christ can save. Secondly, I agree with your last statement about the Christians ability to sin except it be for a Christian to be completely emersed in the Word of God, which causes him to continue without sin.

A misunderstanding by my part then. I assumed that you are one to believe that if a Christian sins, they are not a Christian. Now I understand that you believe in the possibility to stop sinning and live a life without sin, or a very very low amount.

Which brings separation Amos 3:3.

Not exactly, agreeing to disagree is like a peace treaty. In no way does it involve accepting each others personal views, but it accepts the fact that the views are different. In this case, the opinion instead of views. This ends the current argument or debate, so that more profitable conversations can occur.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus did not come to divide, one must understand what he has said. Yes the very fact that I believe in God and Jesus and that maybe a family member does not, can and does and has created hardship, and this is what he spoke of. That some will believe on me and some will not so some will chose to become divided. This is what he means, Jesus does not wish any to divide. He simply explains why it will be so. But he also teaches later that it does not have to be so, that we can forgive and work and teach and sometimes it does work out. Such as how we are taught about man and wife, one believes, one does not, if we work at it and we are patient and show love and compassion then it is possible the unbeliever will believe. If we become angry or hostile or push and pull.........the division may occur.

As for throwing out the sinners, I hope not, as I would be thrown out myself. Lol! Just a joke, but also true. In great depth and meaning.

Jesus sat with the sinners, as we can. We can sit with a murderer, a homosexual, a thief, and we can speak to them of God and of Jesus. If they do show acceptance and a willingness to listen....why should we throw them away?? I think Paul speaks of those who live in sin and deliberately challenge God and the assembly and chose to ignore and in spite of discussion and warning........they persist. So yes....then as one of mans sayings says.....get rid of the rotten apple before it rots the rest.

But if Jesus tell a thief on the cross, you are saved .....should we do less. If they really do accept? Should we toss them away before we try?

Kit

We can take it up on another thread if you desire.

 

[gdemoss]

Not exactly, agreeing to disagree is like a peace treaty. In no way does it involve accepting each others personal views, but it accepts the fact that the views are different. In this case, the opinion instead of views. This ends the current argument or debate, so that more profitable conversations can occur.

Individual soul liberty, in a sense, as we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give an account of ourselves. We are instructed to live at peace with each other regardless of our views and I strive to do so. Denominationalism is partially a result of those who have agreed to disagree but be true to the word of God by separating themselves from those they believe to be in error. Whether they be right or not. In the end, I believe that many times each side truly wishes to win the hearts of the others and live in unity but cannot do so, therefore remain separate waiting for the day of the Lord where all things will be made manifest. One look at the churches mentioned in Revelation shows the wide diversity of doctrinal thinking within the church that has been evident from even the first century. I don't think we are looking at a problem that began with Wycliff and the reformers but one that began with those John spoke of who departed from the church with false doctrine in the first century.

Peace be unto you and may God make us both wise in the truth of his Word, whatever it may truly be.

Gary

 

[Ncdataman]

OK enough flaming back and forth, consider this conversation over gdemoss and Fraction,

Blessings and Peace