Why the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Is NOT True.

[Ceptor]

"Why do Americans (and other first world Westerners) believe that they are going to escape tribulation and ordeals that others are now being subjected to - take just what has happened in Pakistan recently."

- Waggles

Let me address the op considering I've been gone from public view for quite some time.

This, if I'm as honest as my King would have me be really really irritates me. For starters what makes anyone OUTSIDE the states believe we all have one perspective? Should I throw a you into the views of the majority of YOUR country?

The general views are typically wrong overall in every place on this planet, so the logic of the opening statement is far from accurate or well thought through.

We do not care, those of us who are in love with our Life Giver (Jesus Christ for those who don't know me) what we may or may not go through regarding our loyalty to our God.

That being said, we don't care so far as we love Him, but is there any one of us who wishes and pleads for pain? Grasp reality my beloved friends who feel this way (such as op suggests) because what you see is not such.

No being wishes for pain. The demons dread being tortured, and people beg when inflicted with pain unless the love in their hearts gives them supernatural strength from God Almighty.

I have, since being on this forum, and with the help of many of my greatly loved brothers and sisters... studied the 'rapture' as it has been coined. It's a great misconception that God HIMSELF is going to punish us by DIRECTLY pouring out HIS wrath on us.

What kind of Father do you believe you have? Let me be frank in letting you know my tone may sound stern, but it's my point I aim to make clear that is driving this message.

Allow testing by fire? Allow evil in order to accomplish good? SURE. But my Jesus will not directly punish me from His hand. I've studied, and I've known God. And while "people" may believe anything they want I know my Father regardless what 'they' want to assume they have 'knowledge' of.

Animals don't enter oblivion, they go home. God doesn't punish repentant sinners, He forgives them. Testing, teaching, and allowing are one thing, but my Father has never raised His hand to me. If anything He allowed my own foolishness to teach me, and through the existing evil if He permitted harm to me at all. He does not "pour out wrath" on those He has forgiven. Sodom didn't swallow Lot and neither will the Tribulation (as modernly meant to be understood) will not swallow me.

Now, I could be quoting scripture here as I'm very very well known to do, but for what? When God has taught me through His spirit and at this point words are picked apart in order to divide and conquer especially among Christians which means especially on this site. The enemy doesn't need to 'attack' those that do not oppose them. This is a fine location for the enemy to provoke division as it IS their most profound threat having Christ living within us.

Let me ask you? Did you ask your Father a fish and He give you a serpent? Rhetorical question dear friends, as He never has, and He never will. These words proceed from God Himself walking in the flesh as He lived here to save us.

For arguments sake, let me cover the opposite perspective.

So God allows us to go through the tribulation. Does this make a hill of beans of difference regarding what we are commanded to do? Or does it matter what country? Who IS the judge here?

It most certainly doesn't matter, because the country WE are from does not exist on this earth. Our country is called The Kingdom of God. So you believe that because I live in the states that I assume I will escape God's torture? I think not. It has nothing to do with where I live.

Not only this, but most people outside the states are making assumptions based on the majority populous. Does God work on this premise???? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

God uses the weak to lead the strong. There are innumerable people within the states suffering worse than even some in third world countries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you know the difference dear brothers and sisters? Because I have lived it. The difference is you live among people who HAVE the means to help and choose not to. Who are well able to help and STILL live comfortably themselves hardly sacrificing anything and yet they wouldn't help you unless they watched you catch fire. Starvation? Oh, big deal, get a job. Do they say that in other countries?! No, they have the support of others!!!!!! Here we are bashed because of our countries status as if everyone were the same.

And what of the rich that do God's will? This IS the premise of the op is it not? The US is rich people spoiled with silver spoons and golden seats...

Let me give you a little piece of advice I've learned throughout a life of pure pain and suffering. Do not judge on the appearance, but judge with righteous judgment. Can you tell me what this means that Jesus told us two thousand years ago?

Does it mean to assume TRUE Christians have a different view point? Do you think there are no people in your country as there are in this country? You assume wrong if so. So we live among a country with a majority that believes incorrectly. IS THIS A BLESSING? People that are lukewarm and who snuff who and water down the Gospel???????????????

There are so many misconceptions in this thread I couldn't address them all if I wrote for a week.


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The tribulation will be what God dictates, and if I be wrong so be it. But if I believe your ideas rather than listen to my Father who I know speaks to me then what kind of faith do I have?

I will be taken home after the third temple is built and the sacrifices start and are cut off, and no "man's" opinion will change such.

But let us say I'm wrong. Will I lose faith or betray God if He permits me to suffer through His wrath? Did God not ask Abraham to sacrifice his only son? Is this NOT the example given?

Physical location is a poor choice of categorization for who is God's true servant and who is not.

The debates people are having regarding details such as these are distractions from what we ought to be doing.

I began in my younger years believing my mission from God was to reach the lost..... but He has shown me very well in recent years that His desire is that I feed His sheep what He has fed me. To give what I've been given to those who will receive it.

Forget the petty details, and stop pointing fingers at brethren when the physical location doesn't dictate a man's heart.

God has children with understanding and true hearts in all parts of the world. We do not believe we are above our brothers and sisters, we do not believe we will escape something because we have lived lavish lives (especially since many of us have them not!!!) and we DO NOT fit in with any stereotype you seem to have fooled yourself into believing we fit into.

We are GOD's. We are humble. And if we are not, then we are not His.

I believe, though my life has felt very much like hell (with a bet it's been worse for me than anyone here will ever know) that God WILL take me home before He raises His hand to pour wrath out.

But.... keep your assumptions of people in general groups to yourself regarding locations because if we are asked to pass through that fire, we most certainly will out of love for our Lord. We will burn in gladness as a testimony to the truth of Jesus Christ being King to the glory of our God as He deserves and we will all see each other at home.

Such ideas and conversations are not what God inspired His prophets to teach us to pursue, including Jesus Himself, Paul, Peter, and John for the most profound and obvious explanations of God's Will.

Take this to the bank..... I will accept torture for my King, for He was tortured for me.

 

[Chopper]

Why do Americans (and other first world Westerners) believe that they are going to escape tribulation and ordeals that others are now being subjected to - take just what has happened in Pakistan recently.

Blasphemy Charges Condemn Parents to Death
A Christian couple, parents of four children, were booked on charges of sending blasphemous text messages to an Islamic cleric. Both have been given the death sentence.
Authorities claim the number on the SIM card was registered to the husband.
Shagufta Kausar and her husband Shafqat Emmanuel Masih were accused of blasphemy in Pakistan.
However, the couple say the phone, along with the SIM card, was lost in early 2013. An official with World Vision in Progress, an organization defending the couple, says the only evidence of the “crime” the authorities have is a bill for a SIM card from an unknown shop.
The husband, who is paralyzed from the waist down, admitted to the crime under severe torture. “There is no man who can stand to see his wife being tortured by police, so to save my wife, I confessed,” he said.
Meanwhile, the husband has developed live-threatening bed sores in the jail where he is being held and fears that he may not survive the ordeal.

Pakistani Police Consider Abduction and Forced Marriage ‘Legitimate’
A Christian mother of three was abducted by her employer and forcibly married to him. An appeal to authorities by the family, all of whom work as bonded servants to the same employer, fell on deaf ears. The case was eventually referred to a local imam who ruled that the marriage was legitimate.
After six months of captivity the family was able to devise an escape plan through the help of a secret phone.
The woman, 36-year-old Fouzia Sadiq was whisked to a safe house run by the British Pakistani Christian Association. Saqdiq’s employer responded to the escape by accusing her of stealing gold jewelry. Police visited Sadiq’s house and said they will arrest a family member if Sadiq is not returned to the employer.
To date, BPCA has been able to move two members of Sadiq’s family to the safe house.

Pakistani Christian Couple Burned Alive in Trumped up Charges of Blasphemy
A young Christian couple, parents of four small children and with another on the way, was burned alive by a mob in Pakistan in seemingly trumped up charges of blasphemy. Relatives of the couple say the real issue was a monetary dispute involving the couple’s employers.
The incident was started by a rumour that pages with several verses of the Quran were burned by the wife after being left behind by the wife’s deceased father, after which a local mullah made a public ruling that the couple was guilty of blasphemy.
A mob of about 500 people – included Muslims from neighboring villages -- began forming. Relatives began to flee, including the couple’s children, but the couple was unable to escape. The mob attacked the building in which they had barricaded themselves, broke the door down and started beating them.
"They broke their legs so they couldn't run and then threw them in the fire (in a kiln at the brick factory where they worked),” said Mushtaq Gill, chief advocate at Pakistani minority rights group Legal Evangelical Association Development (LEAD). “Only some bones and hair were found at the site."

Parents of 12-Year Old Kidnapped, Raped Daughter Face Charges for Not Returning Their Daughter
to Her Captor
another really horrific gut wrenching story / event that can only make one cry. The details are pretty horrible so I won't paste and cut the details.

And then there are the sexual enslavements, rapes, beheadings, tortures, crucifixions and being burned alive by ISIS.
And not just ISIS but also in most Muslim Majority nations across the globe. In Indonesia two Christian schoolgirls were attacked, raped and beheaded. Their bodies dumped near the Christian community from which they came.
Nothing like a little intimidation.

Where is the rapture to save all these non-American Christians suffering and dying today, right now.
Wake up to yourselves. Your escape doctrine is false.
And it will come upon us all. Be vigilant. Watch and pray.
Only faith will get us through the valley of death.

I find that many that oppose the pre-trib rapture don't really understand who's being raptured (gathered) and who is not. I find that we have two classes of Christians in our Churches. One, the Bride of Christ. They are the Elect of God....Ephesians 1:4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

These are the Bride of Christ who are very serious about their devotion to Jesus the Son of God. They are the ones that John wrote about in his Gospel that the Father gave the Son. Initially, they were the Disciples who were forerunners to those in future generations that were chosen to represent Jesus in every generation as a true example of a Christ-one before the world.

The second group are those who make a profession of being saved by the Blood of the Christ of God, Jesus. They are just going on for the ride. They have been saved by the General Call of the Gospel. They will enter the first 3 years of the Tribulation and be tested thru trials and persecution. As explained in 2 Thessalonians Chapter two....

2Thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2:4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Clearly, this is not the Rapture as some believe. This is a very large segment of the Church minus the Bride who has already been gathered to Jesus in the New Jerusalem. At the half way point in the seven year Tribulation, there will be a massive apostasy of those who claim to be saved. What ever the persecution was during this period of time, it will be too much for these and they will abandon Christianity. Apostasy means a spiritual rebellion.

The Church at Philadelphia represents the the Bride of Christ who is raptured pre-trib. This may also include those Believers who endure the persecution of the first three and a half years and when Antichrist takes the position of god in the Temple, these faithful ones will be gathered to Jesus at this time....Notice what Jesus says about this wonderful loving Church....Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.


In conclusion, The Bride of Christ are those who were predetermined by the Father, to be His Son Jesus' Bride and that they would not loose their Salvation....
John 17:6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
17:7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

The rest of the Church, once the Bride has been gathered to Jesus will have to endure persecution. It could be just what Waggles wrote about in the OP. History has proved that when persecution breaks out anywhere in the world, Christians go underground and the Church gets stronger because of the Believers who realize that they were left behind at the Rapture. They get very, very serious about living holy lives for 3 1/2 years and at the mid tribulation, they will be gathered to Jesus.

It is not God's will for Christians to endure the last 3 1/2 years of then Tribulation. This period is to "try those who dwell on the earth."

 

[Ceptor]

I suppose I should revise a portion of my afore mentioned sentiments to account for the revelation you've given us Chopper. I do take God seriously after all and have felt strongly most Christians I have contact with personally do not give Him due reverence or hold His statutes as a serious matter. I always feel worried about my family due to this feeling, and what you've shown gives me peace of mind concerning them and God's plan.

What you say clears up a lot of confusion I've had about the Church. Though I'm a skeptical one about everything, this makes very much sense to me. It fits perfectly with scripture as a whole. God is a righteous Judge after all.

Thanks for the wisdom brother.

 

[Chopper]

I suppose I should revise a portion of my afore mentioned sentiments to account for the revelation you've given us Chopper. I do take God seriously after all and have felt strongly most Christians I have contact with personally do not give Him due reverence or hold His statutes as a serious matter. I always feel worried about my family due to this feeling, and what you've shown gives me peace of mind concerning them and God's plan.

What you say clears up a lot of confusion I've had about the Church. Though I'm a skeptical one about everything, this makes very much sense to me. It fits perfectly with scripture as a whole. God is a righteous Judge after all.

Thanks for the wisdom brother.

You're very welcome my friend. Contrary to what a lot of denominational preacher teach, once the Church see's that the serious believers were taken in the pre-trib rapture, They will get serious themselves. Unfortunately, they will have to endure the first half of the tribulation, but will be gathered to Jesus and the folk who went up in the Rapture at the half way point.

Also, there will be folk who have dragged their feet in making a decision to receive Jesus as Savior. During the last half of the tribulation, which is called "Jacobs Trouble" Israel is the focus of God to bring them to their knees with terrible persecution. During that time, 144,000 Jewish Evangelist's proclaim the Gospel. There will be Jews and Gentiles who will be saved. The Jew will have to accept Jesus as their Messiah, where Gentiles will accept Jesus as Savior.

Our God is not willing that anyone should perish and be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That was created for Satan and his demon force. Not for humans. Unfortunately, man has been wicked since the sin of Adam and won't change because they are driven by Satan and their love for darkness and wickedness. The Gospel preached has the power of God to change the hardest, wicked heart. If only their blind eyes could catch a glimpse of the Love of Jesus Who died for them, hell would hold less than Satan plans on.

 

[amadeus2]

I won't say that I go along completely with all you have said, Chopper, but you do surprise me. I know a number of people who see a difference between the Bride and the rest of the Church, but I have met few on the Internet. In this thing of the Bride coming out of the Church I agree.

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

There she is the Bride of Christ. I see in this particular Book (Song of Solomon) a conversation between Jesus and his Bride. I don't have many details, but I continue to seek for more.

I said I don't go along with you, but I do not disagree with you at all. I simply have some blank places where you do not. Is that disagreement?

Give God the glory!

 

[Ceptor]

I want to make clear this point. At this time there is a subject being discussed which is related to but which does not negate the aim I intended whatsoever in any way.

The op's suggestions are silly and have as much foundation as a house built on sand. The use of geological location or occurrences which have happened in said locations has about as much to do with God's true people as what ISIS does to the people that live in the areas they utilize.

God says that He will have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy. (Romans 9:15, Exodus 33:19)

It doesn't matter which path God asks us to take in our own particular journeys. What happens with one man in his life is between him and God. It is not for us to nag and complain because we did not all suffer the exact same evils. John 21:22

The way God enacts His plan in no way matters to how we feel, nor who He chooses to allow suffering on and who He spares. THIS is the point. Suffering is counted a BLESSING if you would read Matthew 5 and take our Lord's words seriously. Does God not make the decision who suffers and doesn't? Who is taken up and who isn't? If I believe differently than you will that change God's will? No, it will not. God is sovereign. Whether I go up before or after the tribulation makes no difference as my commandments are the same.

I'm sure it's horrid to go through, but do you not think God is with them? Do you not think He can reward them fairly? Does God give any man more than that man is able to bear? God speaking through Paul says He does not.

This idea and suggestion is childish ways.. he gets to play with the blocks and I do not... I had to clean my room and dad picked up little brothers toys for him.

1 Corinthians 13:11

Put childish things away and focus on what is important....

Your relationship with your Creator and doing His will.

 

[Chopper]

I won't say that I go along completely with all you have said, Chopper, but you do surprise me. I know a number of people who see a difference between the Bride and the rest of the Church, but I have met few on the Internet. In this thing of the Bride coming out of the Church I agree.

"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.

My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her." Song of Solomon 6:8-9

There she is the Bride of Christ. I see in this particular Book (Song of Solomon) a conversation between Jesus and his Bride. I don't have many details, but I continue to seek for more.

I said I don't go along with you, but I do not disagree with you at all. I simply have some blank places where you do not. Is that disagreement?

Give God the glory!

O my friend. We Brothers can toss back and forth our beliefs without any malice. Isn't that just what Jesus wants for us? On LOVE hangs all the Law and Prophets, amadeus2 and Chopper. I appreciate your kind nature concerning these sometimes debatable topics. Gosh, I and along with you probably, have studied this topic of pre-trib, Bride & Church for years now and I'll bet you, like I, never tire of searching out Truth on these subjects.

Love You my Brother.

 

[amadeus2]

O my friend. We Brothers can toss back and forth our beliefs without any malice. Isn't that just what Jesus wants for us? On LOVE hangs all the Law and Prophets, amadeus2 and Chopper. I appreciate your kind nature concerning these sometimes debatable topics. Gosh, I and along with you probably, have studied this topic of pre-trib, Bride & Church for years now and I'll bet you, like I, never tire of searching out Truth on these subjects.

Love You my Brother.

I continue searching for the face of God. As you say it all hangs on Love, which is God. Carry on in Him.

 

[Waggles]

THIS is the point. Suffering is counted a BLESSING if you would read Matthew 5 and take our Lord's words seriously.

Then why do the TV evangelists of America promise to their various flocks that they will escape suffering and persecution through the supposed pre-tibulation
secret rapture???
This is against the entire history of the Church where all those defending the gospel and daring to make the scriptures available to us the people where
burned alive at the stake, or executed by other cruel means. When the Reformation came starting with the Moravians and later with the Lutherans,
Protestants were slaughtered by Rome in their hundreds of thousands.
From the Book of Acts right throughout history into our times now (India, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Indonesia) Christians are
still being persecuted and martyred for the Faith.
Persecution is the history of the Church, not being raptured away to avoid it.
Jesus has always brought the Children of Israel and Christians through ordeal, through persecution, through suffering, to overcome their enemies and
to claim the victories through the power faith in the only true God.
The pre-tribulation secret rapture is an offence to all those who over the centuries and recent decades have suffered so much death and persecution at the
hands of those who hate Jesus and the truth.
Why oh why would anybody believe that given the state of apostasy and worldliness that pervades what some call THE Church would be worthy of
escape from ordeal by fire, a cleansing?
Why do I complain about America evangelical preaching of the pre-tribulation secret rapture doctrine? Because it is so strongly promoted and exported
by your TV evangelists on their TV and radio channels and on You Tube. Exported and promoted and upheld even by Hollywood. That is the power of this false doctrine. And that is why there will be a great falling away as millions realize they were deceived by populists pastors, etc.
A false doctrine will never ever lead people to salvation.

 

[Waggles]

I will be taken home after the third temple is built and the sacrifices start and are cut off, and no "man's" opinion will change such.

But the scriptures do not speak to this. There is no third temple before Jesus returns openly to end the world wide nuclear war that will engulf us all.
He will return openly to shorten the days, to save a remnant of humanity. To save his elect. To save Judah.
Then the Third Temple will be built for Jesus to rule and reign from Mount Zion.

 

[Chad]

Relevant scripture I think

“When I left for Macedonia, I urged you to stay there in Ephesus and stop those whose teaching is contrary to the truth. Don’t let them waste their time in endless discussion of myths and spiritual pedigrees. These things only lead to meaningless speculations, which don’t help people live a life of faith in God.”

‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:3-4‬ ‭

 

[Ceptor]

Waggles, you don't seem to understand the point. The will of God is that you walk by faith, not by sight.

I have a strong feeling that you aren't going to read, or either don't understand what I, and others here, have wrote at all. I stopped reading at televangelists.. That statement explained your confusion. I see this is a futile attempt at edification.

You are more worried about what others think or suffer or don't for God than you are about what you yourself are doing for your Creator.

I love you brother.

Praying for your best.

 

[KingJ]

Then why do the TV evangelists of America promise to their various flocks that they will escape suffering and persecution through the supposed pre-tibulation
secret rapture???
This is against the entire history of the Church where all those defending the gospel and daring to make the scriptures available to us the people where
burned alive at the stake, or executed by other cruel means. When the Reformation came starting with the Moravians and later with the Lutherans,
Protestants were slaughtered by Rome in their hundreds of thousands.
From the Book of Acts right throughout history into our times now (India, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Indonesia) Christians are
still being persecuted and martyred for the Faith.
Persecution is the history of the Church, not being raptured away to avoid it.
Jesus has always brought the Children of Israel and Christians through ordeal, through persecution, through suffering, to overcome their enemies and
to claim the victories through the power faith in the only true God.
The pre-tribulation secret rapture is an offence to all those who over the centuries and recent decades have suffered so much death and persecution at the
hands of those who hate Jesus and the truth.
Why oh why would anybody believe that given the state of apostasy and worldliness that pervades what some call THE Church would be worthy of
escape from ordeal by fire, a cleansing?
Why do I complain about America evangelical preaching of the pre-tribulation secret rapture doctrine? Because it is so strongly promoted and exported
by your TV evangelists on their TV and radio channels and on You Tube. Exported and promoted and upheld even by Hollywood. That is the power of this false doctrine. And that is why there will be a great falling away as millions realize they were deceived by populists pastors, etc.
A false doctrine will never ever lead people to salvation.

The worst that will happen in the West is prison from defying immoral laws and such.

In Muslim nations the persecution will be terrible as we see with ISIS and even non radicals in Pakistan as your OP shows. Unless Muslims take over N America and Europe, I don't ever see this level of persecution coming until the anti-christ comes. It will take the anti-christ to cause mostly Christian nations to turn on the Christians in a barbaric fashion.

It is the west that invented the Geneva convention. They are not going to put Christians on pikes like Nero.

It is just the way it is.

 

[KingJ]

I mean for crying out aloud look at how well we treat mass killers http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-...eivik-sues-norway-over-inhuman-prison/7248882

ISIS / All those that torture people are really just the cruelest of the cruel people alive. As long as there are good people, these types will not run the world. The rapture has to take place for them to have power.

 

[Chopper]

I continue searching for the face of God. As you say it all hangs on Love, which is God. Carry on in Him.

Amen Brother.

 

[Chopper]

Then why do the TV evangelists of America promise to their various flocks that they will escape suffering and persecution through the supposed pre-tibulation
secret rapture???
This is against the entire history of the Church where all those defending the gospel and daring to make the scriptures available to us the people where
burned alive at the stake, or executed by other cruel means. When the Reformation came starting with the Moravians and later with the Lutherans,
Protestants were slaughtered by Rome in their hundreds of thousands.
From the Book of Acts right throughout history into our times now (India, Pakistan, China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Indonesia) Christians are
still being persecuted and martyred for the Faith.
Persecution is the history of the Church, not being raptured away to avoid it.
Jesus has always brought the Children of Israel and Christians through ordeal, through persecution, through suffering, to overcome their enemies and
to claim the victories through the power faith in the only true God.
The pre-tribulation secret rapture is an offence to all those who over the centuries and recent decades have suffered so much death and persecution at the
hands of those who hate Jesus and the truth.
Why oh why would anybody believe that given the state of apostasy and worldliness that pervades what some call THE Church would be worthy of
escape from ordeal by fire, a cleansing?
Why do I complain about America evangelical preaching of the pre-tribulation secret rapture doctrine? Because it is so strongly promoted and exported
by your TV evangelists on their TV and radio channels and on You Tube. Exported and promoted and upheld even by Hollywood. That is the power of this false doctrine. And that is why there will be a great falling away as millions realize they were deceived by populists pastors, etc.
A false doctrine will never ever lead people to salvation.

I hear what you're saying friend. Would you please consider that through out the span of time from Jesus' first appearance on earth until just before He returns, there will be persecution of Believers in Jesus the Son of God as you have mentioned. Scripture is very clear on this. Once the stage is set for the return of Jesus for His Church, certain Scriptural events must take place. That would be the gathering by Jesus, His Bride from the Church at large according to....

Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

This means, persecution of the Saints during the establishment of Jesus' Church at Pentecost, until the great apostasy spoken of in....

2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,"

....will happen. Scripture is very clear on the fact that, for those who identify with Christ Jesus will suffer persecution as you have so painstakingly presented. By the way, thank you for listing them, it grieves my heart to realize that our Brothers and Sisters were tortured by wicked men. Sometimes I hear folk say that when they get to heaven, they want to meet King David. That would be great but I'd like to rub shoulders with those on your list that were tortured to death instead of denouncing our Lord Jesus Christ. I have an idea that you will be in front of me hugging them first.

So, your list of all those persecutions are absolutely true. They happened during the time period that I've mentioned and will continue to happen until 2 Thessalonians 2:3 takes place.

A second persecution directed at the Saints of Christ Jesus will happen during the first half of the Tribulation. The Bride, as I have mentioned will already have been gathered (Rapture) to Jesus in the New Jerusalem. Now, the remainder of the Church of Jesus Christ, because they were just playing church and avoided persecution at all costs, will now be exposed to an increased persecution to test their faith. This may happen just prior to the exposure of antichrist, which will send many into apostasy.

During that first three and a half year tribulation is just what the name means, TRIBULATION. The remaining Church that was not gathered will realize, "O oh, we blew it. If we want be with Jesus and our Brothers and Sisters who went in the Gathering (Rapture) we have to get serious. I'm reminded of the Virgins in....

Matthew 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
25:3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
25:4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
25:5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.
25:6 But at midnight there was a cry, 'Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
25:7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, 'Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.'
25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, lord, open to us.'
25:12 But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour."

I don't know what you think about this parable, I suppose it could relate to our reasoning here....any way Brother Waggles. I'm always interested in and instructed by your posts and threads. May our Lord find you well and blessed today, and may His grace and peace carry you thru these last days until our Lord Jesus comes for us.

 

[Waggles]

@Ceptor @Chad @Chopper @KingJ

Psalm 91
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

This psalm says it all...

 

[Christ4Ever]

If @Waggles, @amadeus2 , @Chopper , @Ceptor , @KingJ amongst others do not have a problem with me closing this thread for further discussion I am doing so. You are welcomed to PM me if you would want this reopened. All I would only ask from you is that you explain what benefit would be derived from doing so.

My reasoning is that the positions have been made known and explained. Further discussion I see would only leave the possibility of hurt without furthering knowledge in this area and the Love that we share with one another through Christ Jesus is paramount to the Health of the Body of Christ.

For me in truth I long for the day "For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known"

With Love
Your servant in Christ Jesus
C4E
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