Works based salvation ??

[Rhema]

I cant help wonder if Jesus would get accused of works based salvation in today's Christian communities that do not know scripture.

Without a doubt.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

(Luke 6:46 KJV)

I just wonder how, "Believe in Jesus" got disconnected from "Believe the teachings of Jesus" (and do them).

Keep the Faith Dave,
Rhema

(Just make sure you got the right faith.)

 

[Rhema]

Notice, I said, "Instead of being able to buy your way into the Kingdom he claimed that no works were necessary at all." My statement says that Luther said no work were necessary to enter the Kingdom, i.e. get saved. Luther absolutely preached that one was saved apart from works. He is the one who championed, faith alone. So, my comments were accurate and not ignorant.

Indeed.

What I find fascinating, though, is Luther's reasoning behind such views. It's not as if he just read scripture and pulled doctrine from there, it's that he reacted to the Catholic paradigm and found flaws there first.

And yes, indulgences were granted for monetary donations to the Church, and Luther's 95 theses were all about indulgences, put forth (as was the practice) to start a theological debate. They weren't proffered as a conclusion. The import of the theses was (in essence) do monetary donations have "Salvific Merit"? Can money substitute for one's good works? (Hey, time is money....) Should one just make money, and then sponsor others who would do good works on your behalf?

One of the largest super-churches in America is North Point Community Church out of Atalanta Georgia. And while my intent is not to bash Andy Stanley, the church itself does nothing to provide a structure for its members to participate in doing "good works." Instead, they select organizations that are already active, and have their members donate money to these. Homeless shelters, drug rehabs, after school programs, elder care, food kitchens, food pantries, you name it... even a tool library. I was physically present at one of the annual services a few years back where they did their media hoopla - video presentations about the NGOs that received contributions - and to celebrate the grand total of just how much MONEY the church collected to distribute. .. complete with a countdown clock (actually a count up money clock) and actual confetti canons !!!! Yes, they literally shot confetti into the congregation when the clock hit the Grand Total.



I would ask, does such behaviour have "Spiritual Merit"?

Mind you, the church is rich, so why not just subcontract out your good works? These are people who hire a nanny, have a private chef, pay for pool service, and even subcontract a company to put up their Christmas decorations, so ... to them it feels natural to pay others to slop the food out for the needy. Why dirty your hands? We're just too busy. Let the professionals do the works.

And yes, Luther did go a bit further, not to just conclude that monetary donations to the church have no Salvific Merit, but that your own personal good works have no Salvific Merit (they cannot contribute to your salvation at all).

Why? (And all of the above was preface to this...)

Luther concluded that If one does goods works for Salvific Merit (meaning for the purpose of you achieving your salvation) then those good works are selfish. And how could anything selfish have merit toward salvation?

Fascinating,
Rhema

 

[Butch5]

Indeed.

What I find fascinating, though, is Luther's reasoning behind such views. It's not as if he just read scripture and pulled doctrine from there, it's that he reacted to the Catholic paradigm and found flaws there first.

And yes, indulgences were granted for monetary donations to the Church, and Luther's 95 theses were all about indulgences, put forth (as was the practice) to start a theological debate. They weren't proffered as a conclusion. The import of the theses was (in essence) do monetary donations have "Salvific Merit"? Can money substitute for one's good works? (Hey, time is money....) Should one just make money, and then sponsor others who would do good works on your behalf?

One of the largest super-churches in America is North Point Community Church out of Atalanta Georgia. And while my intent is not to bash Andy Stanley, the church itself does nothing to provide a structure for its members to participate in doing "good works." Instead, they select organizations that are already active, and have their members donate money to these. Homeless shelters, drug rehabs, after school programs, elder care, food kitchens, food pantries, you name it... even a tool library. I was physically present at one of the annual services a few years back where they did their media hoopla - video presentations about the NGOs that received contributions - and to celebrate the grand total of just how much MONEY the church collected to distribute. .. complete with a countdown clock (actually a count up money clock) and actual confetti canons !!!! Yes, they literally shot confetti into the congregation when the clock hit the Grand Total.



I would ask, does such behaviour have "Spiritual Merit"?

Mind you, the church is rich, so why not just subcontract out your good works? These are people who hire a nanny, have a private chef, pay for pool service, and even subcontract a company to put up their Christmas decorations, so ... to them it feels natural to pay others to slop the food out for the needy. Why dirty your hands? We're just too busy. Let the professionals do the works.

And yes, Luther did go a bit further, not to just conclude that monetary donations to the church have no Salvific Merit, but that your own personal good works have no Salvific Merit (they cannot contribute to your salvation at all).

Why? (And all of the above was preface to this...)

Luther concluded that If one does goods works for Salvific Merit (meaning for the purpose of you achieving your salvation) then those good works are selfish. And how could anything selfish have merit toward salvation?

Fascinating,
Rhema

Yeah. One has to wonder how Luther came up with those ideas. I do believe it was an overreaction to What he saw as errors in the Catholic Church. I'm not surprised to hear that of North Point. They have a reputation around here. I've lived near the church for some time now.

 

[Butch5]

You apparently do not know the difference between 'justification' and 'sanctification'! The quotes I gave from Martin Luther were quite clear.

Well, the quotes may have been clear, but they didn't address what I said. I said Martin Luther argued that one enters the kingdom by Faith alone apart from works.

 

[th1bill]

Well, the quotes may have been clear, but they didn't address what I said. I said Martin Luther argued that one enters the kingdom by Faith alone apart from works.

I entered the Kingdom by my faith, which has inspired me unto works in the name and for the cause of Christ.

 

[Curtis]

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

You can only "do" (works) what God shows you.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.