144,000

[ladylane]

Jehovah witnesses think they are the 144000.."little flock"

 

[spirit1st]

THEY do not believe JESUS CHRIST came out of GOD or is GOD with us!
They think he is but an angel.

they are wrong from the start.

 

[jbpichu]

I believe that the Church (gentiles and Jewish believers) and Israel are two seperate bodies (not sure if that's the right word); each with a different purpose. The Church will be called up to heaven one day, then the focus will turn back over to Israel. I just don't think we should be looking for the antichrist; but "watch" (spiritually) for our Lord. We should be spiritually ready. We should never have the thought of "My Lord isn't coming for a long time." Our Lord's return is imminent (there aren't any prophetic events that have to happen before He returns "in the air," but there are things that have to happen before He returns and sets his foot on the mount). Some think we should want to enter tribulation, but the tribulation isn't just another trial that the lord takes us through; it is a time of severe judgment. It's the 70th week of Daniel, and it will be a time for Israel to get her act together, and for unrepentant sinners to make one final choice. Our Lord even says that He'd have to shorten it, or else nobody would survive. He also says that it will be a time that isn't like any time before it or after it.

Needless to say I'm pre-trib, but if we do have to endure the tribulation then I trust that the Lord will take us through it. Remember, nobody can interpret the bible perfectly, except its author. But we should also never spiritualize or make an allegory out of scripture. We should take scripture literally wherever possible.

 

[spirit1st]

Yes the CHURCH is very different than the nation ISRAEL.

But GOD has made promises to many jewish men and maybe women !

So HE will fulfill those promises!

you understand? SALVATION is Only of the JEWS 100%

We are grafted in as Jews Spiritual.
In other wards , Once Born of GOD? We are one of the tribes.
Which tribe would that be?

Well We follow our LORD! So we are of the tribe of judah .We are made priests and that is the only tribe spiritually that priest Now come from.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.


Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[Darian]

Greetings in the name of Jesus.

This particular topic and the opening post has given me much cause to meditate before the Lord and to seek guidance from Him. The reason being is, my dear brother Chad, I am troubled by your opening post. I have usually got a desire to uplift and encourage others. I have always understood the Book of Revelation as prophesy in kind of spritual picture form - spiritual visions.

The number 144,000 to me represents, a human number to be spiritually discerned - not calcuated, but as 'fully complete and final number' in the same spiritual sense that the number 666 is a human number to be spiritually discerned (by Gods Wisdom) and I would have thought the same spiritual context of the numbers should be consistant, e.g. Revelation 13:18 (RSV) "This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty six." I think too many have tried to apply the same criteria here by trying to 'humanly count' even using other numbers in the Bible to 'fit'.

My belief is, to have a better understanding of Revelation we must view the whole Book thus:

We find John, three times "In the Spirit" God was showing John three different spiritual 'viewing angles' of the the same thing all happening at the same time (forgive my repetition please).

Since the Resurection of Jesus these three things are in operation consequitivly in this present Age

1. Jesus is in His Church - Now.
2. Jesus is in Heaven - Now
3. Jesus is in the final conflict - Now

Compare .....

"I was in the Spirit" Viewing angle number one.
Revelation 1:10 to 3:33. We see Jesus in the Church.[/

"I was in the Spirit" Viewing angle number two.
Revelation 4 to 16:21. We see Jesus in Heaven.

"I was in the Spirit" Viewing angle number three.
Revelation 17:1 to 20-15. Jesus in the final conflict.

All concurrent - not consequitive or sequentially.

Finally and not concurrently, we see in Revelation 21:1 to the end Jesus in the Age to Come. The New Heaven and Earth!

In the Love and Grace of Our Lord
David.

Hi 4Jesus,
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on all the events of Revelation being concurrent. By virtue of the fact that Jesus is not sitting on His throne in person, in Jerusalem, with all of His believers ruling the whole earth with Him, and there being no historical evidence of the battle of Armageddon having occurred yet, concurrence of events is impossible. God is always orderly, and not the author of confusion. The book of Revelation is a set of sequential orderly events beginning with the assessment of the churches, then the start of the great tribulation and ending with the judgement of God poured out upon the earth, also known as "The Day Of The Lord" and Him setting up His millenial rule.

 

[johnpaul]

One God One Church

I believe that the Church (gentiles and Jewish believers) and Israel are two seperate bodies (not sure if that's the right word); each with a different purpose.

In the end Israel and the Church are one and the same thing, beloved of Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Why do you consider them two separate '(bodies)' entities?
God has 'grafted Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ, into the branches of the Olive Tree, which is representative of the Jews who believe in Christ. All become one Church.
There are Jews by race who have become Christians! How do I know? I am one!:wink:

 

[freedongrace]

Who are the 144,000 in Book of Revelation?

The 144,000 Jews / Israelites who are sealed in Revelation 7:4-8 are sealed for the specific purpose of being “evangelists” during the Tribulation period. The sealing provides protection from the plagues and devastation brought on by the trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as from the wrath of the Antichrist. The 144,000 is not a limit to how many people will be saved, but rather is just a select group of Jewish believers called to proclaim God’s message during the end times. There will be perhaps millions of other converts during the Tribulation, most of them a result of the 144,000’s ministry.

Revelation 7:4-8

And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

IPV Commentary

The Reward of the 144,000

The turmoil of conflict is over, and the people of God, 144,000 strong, now stand triumphantly with the Lamb on Mount Zion. They have his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads (v. 1), most emphatically not "the mark of the beast" (13:17). The two beasts of the preceding chapter are nowhere to be seen. We are not told just how the conflict was resolved, but John gives us a momentary glimpse of its outcome. Mount Zion (occurring only here in the book of Revelation) is a place on earth, not in heaven, for the voice heard next is a voice from heaven (v. 2). Zion was the name of the mountain on which David built the earthly Jerusalem centuries before, and whenever John refers to "the holy city" or "the new Jerusalem" in the Revelation (3:12; 21:2, 10), it is always "coming down out of heaven from God," and therefore located on earth. Up to this point in the visions, "mountains" have been pictured as either threatened (6:14-16) or threatening (8:8), but Mount Zion is a place of victory and rest for the 144,000.

This group of the redeemed includes both the 144,000 Israelites from 7:1-8 and the "great multitude that no one could count" from 7:9-17. Just as "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (5:5) remained in some sense a lion even after he had been transformed into the Lamb (5:6), so the 144,000 continue to be the 144,000 even after their transformation into an unnumbered crowd. They have lost their explicit identification with the twelve Jewish tribes listed in 7:5-8, but they have gained other distinguishing features.


They are identified first as those redeemed from the earth, and their reward is the privilege of learning a new song (v. 3). Because they are redeemed, there is reason to believe that redemption will be the theme of their song. The only "new song" mentioned before in Revelation was that of the living creatures and elders in heaven (5:9), and it was a song of redemption: "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation." It was accompanied by the music of harps (5:8), and the word for "purchased" in its lyrics was the same word used here of the 144,000 in the phrase redeemed from the earth (v. 4). This time the song comes not from the living creatures and elders themselves, but from an anonymous voice from heaven in their presence, like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder, and like that of harpists playing their harps (v. 2). Both the words and the music are left to our imaginations.

This is totally what I believe Chad Thanks for the postChad do you have a regional map of where they all first settled and what groups of people they intermarried with posted anywhere's? The only reason I ask I know Jews are returning home and have often wondered if they are resettling in the same spot as ancient days knowing they are probally at an advantage scattered throughout Israel for saftey purposes and replenishing the Ancient Ruin Cities as to carry on the promise made to Abraham that his generations will never end.

 

[Copper25]

revelation 7

<SUP>1</SUP>And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30813 value="2">2</SUP>And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30814 value="3">3</SUP>Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-30815 value="4">4</SUP>And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The word "servants" is a word that indicates that these 144,000 men will be used by God in the great tribulation. These are they who will be proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ to their fellow Israelites during the great tribulation. It is when people look over the small details or words, that impotant things are missed. This is why some people error and say that only 144,000 men will be saved out of Isreal, which is far off.

With love in Jesus name,
Copper25

 

[scofieldII]

All i know and want to believe in spite of what you've all said is that only a 14400 people would make it.

 

[MelodyC]

Greetings, Brother Chad, in the precious name of Jesus.

I have read your opening post with very much interest. I am sure you realise some other Christians would not go along with how you understand 144,000 and the tribulation.

First, we must be careful when we speak catagorically of the Tribulation as something in the future. Scripture does not use the words 'The Tribulation' (Please, no-one come back with the old chestnut that the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible; there are different criterium applying.)

Secondly, I believe that The Book of Revelation, must be seen for what it is; not what it is not. It is not recording events sequentially within our human sequential time frame mindset.

Once we try to understand that Almighty God sees everything in a kind of eternally panoramic view i.e., 'all peoples, all things, all ages, all events - past present and future -all at the same time and eternally' then we will grasp a better understanding of what God is saying to us in the Book of Revelation, especially concerning what the 'last days' are and what 'tribulation' is.

Your brother in Jesus.
David

??? Isn't is called 'the Great Tribulation' ???

REV 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I'm just saying I thought I saw it refered to as a Time of Tribulation.

Also some call it 'the time of Jacob's Trouble'.

JER 30:7 How awful that day will be!
None will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it.

OK so you think we are in the Great Tribulation (which Revelation names this period)??

** There are those who believe we are in that time NOW, I actually attend an Episcopalian/Anglican Church for years now that is of that mindset.

** There are those who think it is yet to come. Which is what I believe now that we aren't there yet.

** There are even some who think we already are in the Millenial Kingdom.

I find it hard to say we are in a Tribulation or the time of Jacob's Trouble simply because there is no Third Temple sitting on the Temple Mount (yet). Of course there are those who despute the Jews will ever build the Third Temple.

Not sure what your stance is BUT I do believe Great Tribulation is there in the Bible. Of course it is an NIV I quoted, not sure what your version says in that verse.

OK looked up my KJV and it uses Great Tribulation.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Just giving it another cross reference here is the Amplified.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-30824">Rev 7:14</sup>I replied, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation (persecution), and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So I'm not sure why we can't call it "the Tribulation" for short???

 

[azuredepths]

In Revelation 14 there is also a number of 144.000 WHICH ARE NOT THE SAME with those 144.000 from Revelation 7.

In Rev 7:4-8 , they are indeed the sealed israelites

But in Rev 14:1 is talking about the gentiles which died as virgins and lived their lives totaly dedicated to God and which have the Name Of The Father and Of The Son on their forehead

I think they represent the most worthy overcomers who ever lived on the earth.

So God has a special place of 288.000 in His Kingdom for both the gentiles and the jews which are His 2 people on the earth
The Jews represents God's wife and The Believing Gentiles represents The Bride of Christ.

So all the other saved people on the earth are the addition of these 288.000.

 

[Brother Mike]

There are 144,000 that are sealed on the forehead. Rev 7

Everything is as Chad posted.

They appear again in the throne room, same seal on the forehead.

Rev 14 being taken out of the tribulation, by which the angles take up spreading the good news.

Nothing mentioned about the body of Christ, Church, or Gospel of Christ which we would be spreading if we were actually there during tribulation. Look it up!!! The language of the Church is not mentioned one time during the seven year period.

I see no word of Gentiles, No word of God marking anyone else, just a separation of those that took the number and/or worshiped the image. I don't see any other scriptural reference to there being two different groups of the 144,000. If I could have a scripture.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[spirit1st]

One thing! The church is grafted into the New Priest tribe JUDAH and GOD sees Each one of us as Virgins!
God is Not judging us by our outward appearance!But our heart [Spirit]

We are All counted part of the one fold!

But He started with the flesh jews and turn to the gentiles , Now back to the jews!

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

not sure how we scriptures bless here ?

Listen , I believe the 144000 are flesh jews are become born -again and the LORD uses them to reveal the good news!

He made promises to there for fathers , HE will keep!
God is no respecter of persons! Once made like our LORD , none of us are less or more in HIS body!

He makes All NEW CREATURES ! Made after the pattern JESUS CHRIST!

Jews are No more or less!
In the flesh! Except for the Promises HE MADE!I doubt too many gentiles will be born -again after He takes the church out !

 

[Brother Mike]

The 144,000

spirit1st

Listen , I believe the 144000 are flesh jews are become born -again and the LORD uses them to reveal the good news!

He made promises to there for fathers , HE will keep!
God is no respecter of persons! Once made like our LORD , none of us are less or more in HIS body!

He makes All NEW CREATURES ! Made after the pattern JESUS CHRIST!

Jews are No more or less!
In the flesh! Except for the Promises HE MADE!I doubt too many gentiles will be born -again after He takes the church out !

Pretty cool Spirit1st!!!!

No reference to the Jews being born again, just sealed. Jesus said unless you are Born again, you will not see the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God will go with the Church, as it just the spiritual operation of Heaven. At this time, Wrath, and lots of destruction.

However, they may be born again. No scripture says they are not, but they would have to do so by accepting Jesus, and they just get sealed or picked. I suspect it will be like the time before Jesus and the Power of the Holy Spirit living in man. (Though the Holy Spirit will be working)

Not trying to be picky, but folks around here ........ you know!!


Jesus said the Gospel will be preached all over the World ............Then the End Comes. (The Wrath of God last seven years While Satan tries to get something going.)

The gospel is just mentioned once in REV, and it's a angel, not the church preaching it. I doubt it's the good news of how Jesus was anointed with burden removing, yoke destroying power!!!. (Gospel of Christ)

In other words, we wrap things up with the Gospel of Christ, then taken out of the way. (Until HE be taken out of the way)

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, ....................(Messiah just means anointed ruler or king)

Jesus and his body, the Anointed Church must be taken out of the way, or Satan does not stand a chance as the gates of hell will go nowhere. Not a very exciting end time event then.


Because the End times will be central to only about 1/3 of the earth until the vials are released, then your probably right. I doubt the Gentile world or many of them will be saved.


Awesome post!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Faith4Bride]

02050k2) Two 144 Companies Video

 

[spirit1st]

Revelations is the SAME story told twice two different ways!
It starts in chapter one goes too the end of chapter 11
Then starts all over at chapter 12 telling the same story a different way!

At the end of chapter 11 is judgment day
In chapter 20 we again see judgment day! There is only One judgment day!

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[spirit1st]

I am not a sinner ! Jesus took all my sins away! But I do dwell in a sin filled body!
My spirit is GODS CHILD and it is perfect!

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

My spirits righteous!
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

JESUS is the pattern for All GODS holy children ! Which is our spirit!

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

WE MUST be BORN -Again ! A brand new birth a new heavenly creature


But we are babies in our spirit at SALVATION!Because its a real birth!

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[spirit1st]

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son,

 

[LionOfJudah216]

WoW! Thanks, Chad!
The 144,000 have been on my mind, just recently.

I know no one knows for certain, yet, I think the 144K are the mirror of Jesus' presence, yet not DIVINE as is Jesus. We know that passage says they have not been seduced by the harlot, yet there are more than one way to stay "PURE", in my opinion.

 

[LionOfJudah216]

Coming with/in the Clouds

"the new Jerusalem" in the Revelation (3:12; 21:2, 10), it is always "coming down out of heaven from God,"

Thanks, Chad.
Wonderful Post.

I was about to start a thread, but seemed appropriate to further the one you started

Jesus will return with/in the clouds. (NIV & KJV)
What do you suppose the clouds symbolize? Yes, the book of revelations is mostly symbolic, so I welcome your view, thanks.