144,000

[brakelite]

There is so much I could comment on within this thread, the 144,000, the rapture, prophecy, etc, the thread has taken off in a number of directions, however, in keeping with the original post, I would like to offer my view on Israel in the NT.
There is within Christendom a great expectation of prophetic fulfilment in connection with the nation of Israel. In fact, so much so, that I believe Satan has used this as a form of deception to hide where his real activities are taking place. I find myself concurring with papjim in that God gave the nation their opportunity, and they blew it. Jesus cleare dthe temple twice during His ministry, and was later challenged by the pharisees as to His authority to do so. When they refused to answer His question regards John the Baptists authority, He told them a parable. The parable focused on a vineyard being left to husbandman, who when refusing to submit the fruits to the landowner, ending up killing the landowners son. The pharisees were indignant that such a thing should happen, and pronounced their own doom. I am sure you are all familiar with this parable. The upshot of all this is that when Jesus cleared the temple of the moneylenders, He referred to the temple both times as being His Father's house. After this parable however Jesus pronounced upon the nation "your house is left unto you desolate". The nation as the chosen of God had failed to live up to the light and privileges given them, therefore Jesus said those privileges would be given to a nation that would give the fruits in season.

The name "Israel" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28. After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.

At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God's blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the 'Angel' asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies 'my name is Jacob'. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the 'Angel' saying "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..."
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did corporate Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God's chosen able to fulfil the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)

It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title "Israel" in it's truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Matthew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Matthew's inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .
Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Coll 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus' descendants, just as it did to Jacob's descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the 'seed' of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham's seed because they are Christ's. They are also heirs according to the promise.
This is not 'replacement ' theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now.True Israel was always exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed". It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ's righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost.

True Israel always was, and is today, exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed".

It was always God's intention that corporate Israel as a nation live up to that name. But throughout history, only a remnant did so. The same applies today. Not all who say Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but they who do the will of the Father.

Being Israel has nothing to do with being a nation, or a church, but rather about being faithful and loyal to the God who created and redeemed us.

So the prophecies, including that of the 144,000, has nothing any more to do with the nation, but spiritual Israel, the church. The prophecies that centred upon the nation were all conditional on obedience and faithfulness. God gave the nation 70 weeks, (Daniel 9); this 70 weeks (490 years) expired 3 and 1/2 years after Calvary. Jesus instructed His disciples to first take the gospel to the lost people of the house of Israel. This they did. The final rejection of God and His offer of salvation was realised when the leaders of the nation stopped their ears at the testimony of Steven. It was shortly after this the gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

I believe the 144,00 is a symbolic number for the final remnant people of God, His church, who keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus. They are set forth in Revelation as being those who refuse the mark of the beast, and are sealed by God.

 

[Sonseeahray]

So the prophecies, including that of the 144,000, has nothing any more to do with the nation, but spiritual Israel, the church. The prophecies that centred upon the nation were all conditional on obedience and faithfulness. God gave the nation 70 weeks, (Daniel 9); this 70 weeks (490 years) expired 3 and 1/2 years after Calvary. Jesus instructed His disciples to first take the gospel to the lost people of the house of Israel. This they did. The final rejection of God and His offer of salvation was realised when the leaders of the nation stopped their ears at the testimony of Steven. It was shortly after this the gospel was taken to the Gentiles.

I believe the 144,00 is a symbolic number for the final remnant people of God, His church, who keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus. They are set forth in Revelation as being those who refuse the mark of the beast, and are sealed by God.

Exactly and here is my best interpretation...

The book of Revelation was written to whom? It was written to the Christians of the first century! What did the 144,000 mean to the first century Christians? We only look over their shoulders to see what it meant to them and then we can see what it means to us - just like all the books in the Bible. None were written directly to us.

The correct listing of the 12 tribes of Israel from the book of Chronicles...
1 Chron. 2:1-2 (KJV)

These are the sons of Israel;
Reuben,
Simeon,
Levi,
Judah,
Issachar,
Zebulun,
Dan,
Joseph,
Benjamin,
Naphtali,
Gad,
Asher.

The symbolic listing of the tribes (144,000) in REVELATION.

JUDAH – Who came from the tribe of Judah? Who was the firstborn of the New Covenant? The firstborn was always listed first - and in the O.T. listing the firstborn is always Reuben. But in this symbolic listing Judah is first - WHY!! Because the firstborn of this company of people is Jesus. He is at the head of this group of people.

Judah means “praise.”
Reuben - who sees the son
Gad - a band; a troop
Asher – happiness
Naphtali - that struggles or fights
Manasseh - forgetfulness
Simeon - that hears or obeys
Levi - associated with him
Issachar - reward; recompense
Zebulun - dwelling; habitation
Joseph - increase
Benjamin - son of the right hand
(Benoni) - son of my sorrow, or pain

So the meaning of the 144,000 is contained in the meaning of the names and that of the Firstborn. Why did God use space in the Bible to describe the birth of these 12 boys in the first place?

The first question that has to be answered is, why is John's list a botched up mess? Can't he remember the proper listing of the tribes of Israel. No one has given a good and logical reason for this that I have heard. The reason that it is "Botched" up is because he is drawing symbols out of the Old Testament and he does this all through the book of Revelation.

So the "symbolic" picture of the 144,000 is a company of the people of God for all time who at their head is the firstborn Son seated at God’s right hand. A company of people who are happy and full of praise. An army who fights and obeys the one who has forgotten all of their sins; and they will increase and receive a reward and dwell with him forever. This was good news in particular to someone facing starved lions in the arenas of Rome.

As Rachel lie dying of childbirth with Benjamin – she named him “Benoni” that means “son of my suffering.” Jacob said no - he will be called “Benjamin” – son of my right hand. What a beautiful picture of Christ we have been given. He is our Benoni - Benjamin.

Reference:
Genesis 35:17-18 (NASB)
And it came about when she was in severe labor that the midwife said to her, "Do not fear, for now you have another son." 18 And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

So what about the two tribes that were left out? They simple did not fit the message of the author...
Ephraim – fruitful
Dan - judgment

God is not judging this company – they have escaped his judgment and wrath. You also need to take into account the fact that the 144,000 is mentioned in several places in Revelation. Are these all the same group or are they different? Lets look for a moment.

Rev. 7:4 (NASB)
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Rev. 14:1 (NASB)
And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

Rev. 14:3 (NASB)
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

After the the 12 tribes were listed, John looked and saw the 12 tribes that were just described and here is what he saw.

Rev. 7:9 (NASB)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Looks to me like its all the same group that we described initially, but instead of being “Sealed” they had the name of the Son and the Father on their foreheads - Same difference. In 14:3 they were purchased from the earth – the persecuted and martyred Saints of God. Same group as the others all associated by the number 144,000.

It relates first to the people to whom it was written in appx 92AD, but after that - to all Saints who have been tested on the Earth including us today. The redeemed company of the Lord were the only ones who could learn the new song because it was a song learned from the trials and tribulations of life on Earth. Does this make sense to you?

Numbers in the Book of Revelation are “Symbols” and not arithmetic. 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. These are numbers which symbolize the unknown number of believers in this group. Revelation had to be simple for the people to understand in their day because a lot of the Christians then were uneducated slaves.

So why do I think this is the correct interpretation of the 144,000? Several reasons. First of all this interpretation is simple, and It also meant something to the Christians of the First century. It means something to all Christians of all ages throughout history from out of its original context - including us today, and will be a blessing to those who are yet to be born - should the lord delay his coming even longer. It doesn’t change with time or with current events; and it doesn’t just apply to a few select people somewhere out in the distant, obscure future.

Larry

 

[B-A-C]

Not exactly sure what Bible that is.. but...
Num 34:19 "These are the names of the men: of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed
Num 34:20 "Of the tribe of the sons of Simeon, Samuel the son of Ammihud.
Rev 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand
Num 34:21 "Of the tribe of Benjamin, Elidad the son of Chislon.
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
Num 34:22 "Of the tribe of the sons of Dan a leader, Bukki the son of Jogli.
(This is the one not mentioned in Revelation? Why?)
Gen 49:17 "Dan shall be a serpent in the way, A horned snake in the path, That bites the horse's heels, So that his rider falls backward.
In Judges 18:23-31 we see they turned aside from the Lord and made graven imaes and worshipped them.
Num 34:23 "Of the sons of Joseph: of the tribe of the sons of Manasseh a leader, Hanniel the son of Ephod.
Rev 7:6 from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand

Num 34:24 "Of the tribe of the sons of Ephraim a leader, Kemuel the son of Shiphtan.
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand

Num 34:25 "Of the tribe of the sons of Zebulun a leader, Elizaphan the son of Parnach.
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand
Num 34:26 "Of the tribe of the sons of Issachar a leader, Paltiel the son of Azzan.
Rev 7:7 from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand
Num 34:27 "Of the tribe of the sons of Asher a leader, Ahihud the son of Shelomi.
Rev 7:6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand
Num 34:28 "Of the tribe of the sons of Naphtali a leader, Pedahel the son of Ammihud."
Rev 7:6 from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand
Num 34:29 These are those whom the LORD commanded to apportion the inheritance to the sons of Israel in the land of Canaan.

 

[PrinceMichael]

Correction

Correction: Emperor Nero IS the 666 beast in Revelation, this is common knowledge, if you do not understand the number of His name, you do not have victory over the mark.


N R W N Q S R
50 200 6 50 100 60 200 = 666

..........Continued from last post

times because the possibilities are endless. Different results are obtained depending on whether you use Hebrew or Greek. The result is determined by the spelling, which in a vowel-less language like Hebrew, varies considerably.
The result can be contrived when a person has more than one name. The name you choose to use will determine the result. Be warned, all such attempts are contrived whatever the popular writers say!
Fractions
We cannot impose modern mathematics on the first century. Fractions, such as, the 'fourth' 6:8; and the 'third' 8:7-12; can mean nothing more than limited effect rather than total effect.
From Symbolism to Structure.
Revelation is not a rambling series of visions, it has structure. The structure is obscured by our division of chapters. They do not reveal the structure neither were they part of the early text.
The subject of Revelation is Jesus Christ. It is He who is being revealed. The way we are going to deal with the book turns on an expression John uses four times in order to denote a separate spiritual experience. The phrase is ' In the Spirit.' and it occurs 1:10; 4:1; 17:3; and 21:10. The four section may therefore be seen as follows
1. I was in the Spirit and saw Christ in His Church dealing with his people. (1:10-3;22. )
2. I was in the spirit and saw Christ on His Throne unfolding the course of history. (4:1 -17:2)
3. I was in the Spirit and saw Christ Triumphant in the final conflict. (17:3-21:9)
4. I was in the Spirit and saw Christ Inaugurate the new heavens and the new earth. ( 21:10-22;21 )
In each case the symbolism of location changes.
On Patmos, signifying the church on earth.
In heaven, signifying Christ in heaven
In a desert, signifying the end of human government.
On a great high mountain, signifying the arrival of Kingdom of God in al its
fullness.


With this understanding I am better able to understand what the spirit is saying about the 144,000..........

The Servants are sealed.

This is God's method of ensuring the survival of the People of Witness, ' this is the keeping from the hour of trial.' ( 3:10 ) It is the limitation of Satanic activity, and the ultimate success of His plan of Redemption. It is a seal of Ownership. It is a seal of Authenticity. It is a seal of Covenant.
We need to re-emphasise the ' word picture meaning ' sequence of understanding as we come to the figures of the next verses. If you go from word to meaning you will be looking for 144,000 Jewish believers somewhere which is preposterous.
The numbers speak of fullness or completion. 12 speaks of the entirety of the Covenant people, a s we have noted. The multiplication of 12 to 144, 000 is a picture to give us the idea of enormity and entirety of the triumph of redemption.
The idea of a remnant of every tribe of Israel is immediately expanded to a remnant of every tribe, nation, language and people from the entire world. ( 5:9; 7:9 The division between the sealed and the unsealed is understood in the same way as the division between the ' earth dwellers and the people of the testimony.' It also indicates that the roots of our faith and testimony are in God's Covenants with the Jewish people. Its not that the Jewish people have been immersed in the church and lost their national identity, but the church has found her roots in Gods Covenants with Israel.
John hears the voices of angels calling out this sealing process but when his vision clears he does not see 144,000 people at all. Instead he sees a multitude that no one could number. I think this makes it clear that the 144,000 is a picture of the vast multitude of the redeemed that will triumph in the face of Satanic opposition
The Great Multitude appears around the throne.
It is the plan of redemption to bring from every nation, tribe, language and people men and women to their eternal destiny. This is the purpose of the contents of the scroll.
The Multitude are identified.
We are then taken once again to the sacred precincts of the Throne. We are
aware of the Throne, the Lamb, the Living Beings, and the elders. But in
addition we now see this vast company of the redeemed are now also placed
around the Throne.
Who are they, where did they come from?'
Its a rhetorical question, the answer is known. It is asked to show the
incredible nature of the event, and that against all the odds the redeemed
have come through the trial and proceeded to the throne of God.
'These are they...' These are the ones for whom the scroll was written and
whose redemption it foretold.

Your brother in Jesus
David

 

[PrinceMichael]

I am a firstborn Jewish Son, how do I get into the cool brotherhood club of believers?

 

[DanielO]

Just wanted to reiterate something a previous poster said. Jew is not a synonym for Israel. Indeed the Jews were seperated from the rest of Israel after the death of King Soloman:

<DIR>1Ki 11:31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
1Ki 11:32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel
1Ki 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
1Ki 11:34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant's sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:
1Ki 11:35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
1Ki 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
</DIR>1Ki 11:37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.



<DIR>1Ki 12:21And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
</DIR>

All Texans are Americans but not all Americans are Texans.

All Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews.

Of the 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel, only 12,000 are listed as Jews.

There were 2 kingdoms, the kingdom of the Jews and the kingdom of Israel, they are not the same. The physical, current day nation of Israel...is not Israel...it is Judah.
<DIR>Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
</DIR>
The two will not become one again till the Messiah reigns on the earth.
<DIR>Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
</DIR>May God bless us and lead us into all understanding.

 

[Brother Paul]

Nice Chad, I like it. As you can see already the views regarding this portion of scripture vary depending on whether one is pre/mid/post trib or ammillennial (who see these numbers as purely symbolic). But as I explored this and read up on the earliest versions a thought came to me that perhaps some of the brothers and sisters could comment on. The great multitude of every nation and tongue that washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb during the tribulation are clearly Spirit born persons (hence the church, i.e., members of His body). Their sins have been remised and we see them with Christ in the heavenlies before His second coming.

So since the Spirit had to be here during the tribulation in order for them to be born from above (saved), that is for them to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and for them to be counted among His body (the church), then this means both the Spirit and the church are present during the Anti-Christ’s reign in at least the first half of the trib…so then who or what is it that restrains, that was taken out in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 or is it that up until that time Jesus Himself has not allowed Belial/Satan free rule and now has allowed him such a time?

The reason I ask is because I was always taught this restrainer was the Holy Spirit and later learned others believed it to be the church (the body of Christ) but apparently both are still here….
Any thoughts?

Brother Paul

 

[Brother Paul]

DanielO...I believe you have made a very important point that most Christians (even our teachers) miss entirely. There was no Jewish nation until the southern kingdom and the term Jews is not even used to describe those people until Ezra/Nehemiah (after the Babylonian captivity). According to many old testament prophecies most of the Israelites (also called Ephaimites) were sown in among the gentiles and never returned to the land. Of the few who did retain their culture (albeit corrupted I am sure) most were rejected by the Jews as being mixed or having mixed marriages. Some gave up their wives and families and others would not (imagine if the Israelites has insisted on this regarding Moses children or the children of Joseph?). Here is a cool insight (I have done the word studies)...in Genesis 48:19 Jacob actually says Ephraim shall become the fullness of the gentiles (melo ha'Goyim) but the Eurpean translators missed the connection to what Paul was speaking of when he (as a learned Rabbi) used this term and here interpreted it to be "multitude of nations" but the words used in the Speptuagint in this passage reflect exactly what Paul said in Romans 11....

If this is accurate, then the fulness of the gentiles may not be a specific number of gentiles but a regathering of the lost sheep of the house of Israel (we are the wild olive branch grafted in and they are the branch which was broken off). according to the scriptures then, the "fulness of the gentiles" could be Ephraim which were "Roa" or broken off or made worthless (Jer. 11:16) because they had become "a degenerate shoot and a foreign vine" (Nokri") see Jeremish 2:21...nokri is now a common euphemism for gentiles among the Rabbis.

Just something to think about...

Brother Paul

 

[Stan53]

Who are the 144,000 in Book of Revelation?
The 144,000 Jews / Israelites who are sealed in Revelation 7:4-8 are sealed for the specific purpose of being “evangelists” during the Tribulation period. The sealing provides protection from the plagues and devastation brought on by the trumpet and bowl judgments, as well as from the wrath of the Antichrist. The 144,000 is not a limit to how many people will be saved, but rather is just a select group of Jewish believers called to proclaim God’s message during the end times. There will be perhaps millions of other converts during the Tribulation, most of them a result of the 144,000’s ministry.
Revelation 7:4-8
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
IPV Commentary
The Reward of the 144,000
The turmoil of conflict is over, and the people of God, 144,000 strong, now stand triumphantly with the Lamb on Mount Zion. They have his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads (v. 1), most emphatically not "the mark of the beast" (13:17). The two beasts of the preceding chapter are nowhere to be seen. We are not told just how the conflict was resolved, but John gives us a momentary glimpse of its outcome. Mount Zion (occurring only here in the book of Revelation) is a place on earth, not in heaven, for the voice heard next is a voice from heaven (v. 2). Zion was the name of the mountain on which David built the earthly Jerusalem centuries before, and whenever John refers to "the holy city" or "the new Jerusalem" in the Revelation (3:12; 21:2, 10), it is always "coming down out of heaven from God," and therefore located on earth. Up to this point in the visions, "mountains" have been pictured as either threatened (6:14-16) or threatening (8:8), but Mount Zion is a place of victory and rest for the 144,000.
This group of the redeemed includes both the 144,000 Israelites from 7:1-8 and the "great multitude that no one could count" from 7:9-17. Just as "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (5:5) remained in some sense a lion even after he had been transformed into the Lamb (5:6), so the 144,000 continue to be the 144,000 even after their transformation into an unnumbered crowd. They have lost their explicit identification with the twelve Jewish tribes listed in 7:5-8, but they have gained other distinguishing features.
They are identified first as those redeemed from the earth, and their reward is the privilege of learning a new song (v. 3). Because they are redeemed, there is reason to believe that redemption will be the theme of their song. The only "new song" mentioned before in Revelation was that of the living creatures and elders in heaven (5:9), and it was a song of redemption: "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation." It was accompanied by the music of harps (5:8), and the word for "purchased" in its lyrics was the same word used here of the 144,000 in the phrase redeemed from the earth (v. 4). This time the song comes not from the living creatures and elders themselves, but from an anonymous voice from heaven in their presence, like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder, and like that of harpists playing their harps (v. 2). Both the words and the music are left to our imaginations.

These 144,000 are also mentioned further in Rev 14:1-5 with details as to their character. Some will say the 12 tribes are not as shown is other parts of scripture. Simply put, some of those tribes were cutoff by GOD and disinherited. These are the tribes GOD recognizes. Manasseh replaced Gad as a tribe somewhere in Joshua I think.

I would like to add and clarify that these evangelists will ONLY evangelize the Israelites. This is how God keeps His promise to His chosen people.
Daniel and other prophetic books back this up.

 

[Michelle71]

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, [SUB]g[/SUB] for they are virgins. These are the ones [SUB]h[/SUB] who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These [SUB]i[/SUB] were [SUB]3[/SUB] redeemed from among men, [SUB]j[/SUB] being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And [SUB]k[/SUB] in their mouth was found no [SUB]4[/SUB] deceit, for [SUB]l[/SUB] they are without fault [SUB]5[/SUB] before the throne of God.

The original post of Chad's is the one that first brought me to this forum. I had been studying a bit about the 144,000 Jews that will be sealed, and this understanding of who they are in the OP is the same as I had come to understand as well. The list of criteria for these Jews is very specific, and it is a wonder that there will be that many as a remnant out of the nation of Israel (which I see as not just the physical nation, but those Jews scattered all around the world.)

 

[brodav9]

Few know this, that there are really 2x144,000. Rev. 7 and 14 slowly read it and see that only one is speaking about the Jews. The other is from many nations. It is difficult but must be a serious bible student to see it. Must throw away for a moment preconceived ideas. God bless the challenge.

 

[Stan53]

Few know this, that there are really 2x144,000. Rev. 7 and 14 slowly read it and see that only one is speaking about the Jews. The other is from many nations. It is difficult but must be a serious bible student to see it. Must throw away for a moment preconceived ideas. God bless the challenge.

I am ALWAYS wary of people who say they have something NEW to see in God's Word. In any event, the 144,000 in Rev 7, are shown in verse 3, that they were sealed on their forehead. These are the same 144,000 shown in Rev 14:1 who have the seal of God on their forehead. There is nothing anywhere in other prophetic scripture that would suggest two separate groups of 144,000. There are some very good reasons why Rev 7 shows 12,000 times 12 tribes.

I would suggest we take God's Word on the face of it, within context of His whole Word, and not look for alternatives that don't really exist. The challenge with God's Word is to let His Holy Spirit make it real to you.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

I am ALWAYS wary of people who say they have something NEW to see in God's Word. In any event, the 144,000 in Rev 7, are shown in verse 3, that they were sealed on their forehead. These are the same 144,000 shown in Rev 14:1 who have the seal of God on their forehead. There is nothing anywhere in other prophetic scripture that would suggest two separate groups of 144,000. There are some very good reasons why Rev 7 shows 12,000 times 12 tribes.

I would suggest we take God's Word on the face of it, within context of His whole Word, and not look for alternatives that don't really exist. The challenge with God's Word is to let His Holy Spirit make it real to you.

Stan53 and Brodav9,

Revelation 14:1-5 is speaking about the same 144000 Jews who have been redeemed from the earth at the middle of the tribulation before the seven angels pour out the 7 last vial judgments on the earth.

 

[brodav9]

I agree with you, I am wary of those who show things that are not true in the word of God. I maintain the teaching that we must minister in meekness to those who wrestle with the scriptures. We all can make mistakes or not see what someone else is showing. I have a example of this to show.

there are 3 distinct groups of people. one is amillenial, one is post millenial, one is premillenial. Now all 3 are determined they are right. Actually there is a 4th. That would be new to most , that doesn't mean it is a reason for saying I know more than anybody else, it means most don't know it. I could tell it or just keep it to myself.

It is required under the authority of scripture to hear and learn all we can about the word of God. The issue is not that when someone is wrong that they should be set in place , for it is possible they are right but if they are wrong it is our duty to just say we don't agree. That keeps us safe with God's word because we could be wrong.

We effect others and can lead them astray if they decide we are right. The best principle and I beleive I have the Spirit is to either receive or reject it according to the discernment I have according to the knowledge I have in the word.

Now when it comes to the doctrine of Christ we have to be total accurate, for salvation is through him.

It is true some can share some pretty weird stuff, but we all have to give account as to what we believe and also disbelieve. What really disturbs us is people lead people away from Jesus. Such as teaching that Jesus died on the cross as a sinner. That is heresy and God will judge that. So I first of all am careful to keep myself from any displeasing things that other people just don't know.

The 4th and there may be more is The Pope who is in office now says the book of revelations is not literal. It is al symbolism. I believe it is all real and all that was shown to John was given out of God's wisdom. The book of Revelations proves that prophesy is for today. It is slowly, perhaps rapidly unfolding.

There was a Rev. Odem who said there are 144,000 rows of 144,000 of mansion rooms around Gods throne. He and his daughter were said to have gone to heaven and saw this. At this point in time I handled that as a good thought. I had no basis for saying he was right or wrong, just thought sounds interesting. Only he and his daughter know for sure. So I won't criticise them. If that didn't mean anything to me it may mean something to someone else as my knowledge at that point is limited.

it is not a issue of salvation, thats when I draw the line. That is why no one will be hurt if they disagree in 2 groups 144,000, In my case they just don't see it. That is not a issue. One thing is for sure there will be as many as the stars of heaven and sand of the sea, according to promise to Abraham. God bless.

 

[spirit1st]

God Started with Israel God ends with Israel ! It very simple ! He reveals there Messiah to them , they wept and accept Him gladly ! Then He uses them to give his gospel !

Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Rom_11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom_11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

God Started with Israel God ends with Israel ! It very simple ! He reveals there Messiah to them , they wept and accept Him gladly ! Then He uses them to give his gospel !

Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Rom_11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom_11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Yes all Israel will be saved because the unsaved Jews will be killed.

Israel’s Imminent Annihilation
God will judge Israel with war and fire.

Isaiah 4:4
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

All the Jews that repent and accept Jesus Will be saved and all the Jews that won’t repent will die, see Isaiah 4:2-4.

Isaiah 4:2–4 KJV
2 In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

24 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

The only Jews to escape the judgment of fire will be the holy Jews who have turned back to the Lord and accepted Jesus as His Son. This is God’s ethnic cleansing of Israel by nuclear fire. Only one-third of the people in Israel will live through the great tribulation.

Zechariah 13:7–9 KJV
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Did you notice that Zechariah explained that only one-third of the Jewish people in Israel will survive the judgment of God’s fire?

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

good reading but i dont see any where in the word that it says whomsoever up to 144,000....i think ill put this on my to ask list when i get to heaven..Rev

 

[Eric E Stahl]

good reading but i dont see any where in the word that it says whomsoever up to 144,000....i think ill put this on my to ask list when i get to heaven..Rev

RevT.S.Perkins,

The 144000 Jewish missionaries are sealed for a purpose, over 5,000,000 Jews will turn to Jesus and live.

 

[brodav9]

Have you ever read Gal. 3:26-29.? it is clear there that there is no distinction of people, all can come and believe and be a Christian. If you want to be a Jew, you will only be under the law of Moses and not have the grace and salvation of Jesus. If you receive Jesus by faith then you are a Christian. ( a believer in Christ.) If you want to be called a Jew, just remember that you must be a disciple of Jesus and follow his teachings. Paul made it clear that the Jews rejected Jesus and so they would then go to the Gentiles. The 7 churches of Asia were established in the isles of the Gentiles. in the book of Revelations. Jews were welcome to come and be converted to (not Gentiles but Christians). Jn. 3:16 God so loved the world, not God so loved the Jew. that---------------- whosoever------believes in him----Jesus----- should not perrish but have everlasting life.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Have you ever read Gal. 3:26-29.? it is clear there that there is no distinction of people, all can come and believe and be a Christian. If you want to be a Jew, you will only be under the law of Moses and not have the grace and salvation of Jesus. If you receive Jesus by faith then you are a Christian. ( a believer in Christ.) If you want to be called a Jew, just remember that you must be a disciple of Jesus and follow his teachings. Paul made it clear that the Jews rejected Jesus and so they would then go to the Gentiles. The 7 churches of Asia were established in the isles of the Gentiles. in the book of Revelations. Jews were welcome to come and be converted to (not Gentiles but Christians). Jn. 3:16 God so loved the world, not God so loved the Jew. that---------------- whosoever------believes in him----Jesus----- should not perrish but have everlasting life.

brodave9,

The times of the gentiles is almost over.

Isaiah 59:20–60:2 KJV
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from
transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.
60 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

As we come to the end of the tribulation, the time will come when the Lord has had enough. The world is full of evil. There is little justice. Any who try to do good are attacked. Israel will have been purged, and the Jewish people will have repented after seeing the nuclear fires and the burning up of the ozone layer as a scroll.
Verse eighteen and nineteen are very important. Isaiah warns that the enemy whom Jesus is coming to attack and who is in control of earth is the Western powers. But who are the Western powers?
Today, Israel is back in the land and we are at the end of time. Now the military arm of the Western powers is known as NATO It is already fighting Islamic terrorism. America, who is the major power in NATO, is the primary ally of Israel.
In the future, the Russian alliance from the north will attack Israel when the Jewish people feel safe. However, America will come from the other side of the earth to fight the Russian alliance. This battle is prophesied in Jeremiah 6:21–22, Ezekiel 38:1–13, 39:1–8, Jeremiah 25:14–38, Daniel 11:36–45, etc. ...
When Jesus the Redeemer comes to save Israel with the army of heaven, Israel will be sitting in darkness under the shadow of the permanent solar eclipse. The permanent solar eclipse creates a two- hundred-mile diameter shadow on Israel and darkness on North America. You probably want to know how long the darkness will stay on America, but you probably won’t like the answer.

176 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

Isaiah 60:3–17 KJV
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord.
7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.